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-   General Gender Discussions (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111)
-   -   Gender Neutral Kindergarten in Sweden (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3435)

Chancie 06-28-2011 01:29 PM
Years ago, before I started spending way too much time here, my ex and I made a concious choice not to use gendered pronouns whenever possible.

There were plenty of times when people went 'Hunh'?

Or we sounded crazy, diving all over ourselves to communicate without using 'she' and 'he' and 'her' and 'him' but

Our conciousness about how we used gendered pronopuns changed me and the way I thought.

I think we used to talk more about biology, gender and sexual orientation here.

The expression 'false duality of gender constructs' means that it is false to talk only about two gender constructs, and imbedded in that belief is the idea that gender is a social construct, as distinct from biology.

cane 06-28-2011 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367556)
I forgot to get to the point. I don't predict much efficacy or value in trying to engineer or accelerate such change, as in the Swedish experiment.
It is not an experiment, it's a life choice and a life ambition, a way of living. Not just for these kids then and there, but also for their parents.

Novelafemme 06-28-2011 01:32 PM
See...I don't see this program as an "experiment" per say. I see it as a vast cultural difference between how Americans approach early childhood education versus how Sweden does. No Child Left Behind is a social construct - manufactured by a legislation driven by capitalistic neoliberals. (holy crap!)

And here is where my socialist undies get in a bunch. Sweden isn't out to propagate any sort of agenda. Rather, they are investing in their future by restructuring the social order of things. I think this is a marvelous step towards neutralizing the dominant gender binary that has suffocated America for eons.

Novelafemme 06-28-2011 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 367570)
Just to clear up my position on this entire thing:

I believe that in America we have firmly constructed rigid gender classifications based on post-war nuclear family structure. Men are assumed to be bigger, stronger, breadwinners, take out the trash, lift the heavy things, fix the lawnmower, less concerned about appearance/clothing, encouraged to participate in rough/competitive activities, and anything that falls into this arena is considered masculine, associated with male gendered behavior. Women are assumed to be smaller, weaker, child-rearing caregivers, food preparers, clean the house, more concerned about appearance/clothing, and prefer gentler, softer clothing/activities, anything that falls under that umbrella is considered feminine, associated with female gendered behavior.

I agree that parents should be the forefront of change and should actively seek to discourage classification of things such as "boy's toys" and "girl's games", however, I think this behavior absolutely must be reinforced outside of the home as well. I believe that the only way we can destroy this gendered sorting of human beings is by aggressively obliterating that type of judgment from our society. I think what this school is doing is a first step in that direction, which is why I support it.
...were we separated at birth?? :rrose:

Chancie 06-28-2011 01:35 PM
Though there was support from both Democrats and Rupublicans, NCLB was passed during the Bush Adminstration in 2001.

tapu 06-28-2011 01:39 PM
"Always question the assumptions."
 
I have not seen one pre-school--now, granted I've only spent time in maybe 8-10 (and only on the coasts so yes, more progressive)--that delineates the sexes, the play, the toys in classroom set-up or on-going direction.

Of course, there are promoting or limiting gender-directed behaviors that the caregivers have and that could be modified through outside observation and feedback. Overall, it has seemed to me that there is a natural division in interest that the kids display, along gender lines.

But... what exactly IS the problem when little girls choose the dolls and such and little boys choose the trains and such?

I live in a very progressive city (Portland, ME), and I think it's fairly well entrenched here that if "Biff" wants to wear a tutu to the museum play, he gets to. (real-life example) If "Nell" is into her trucks, no one worries a thing about it.

What is happening in progressive classrooms like that that is undesirable or unnatural that could be done better? What change being engineered is desired, exactly?

Chazz 06-28-2011 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367556)
I forgot to get to the point. I don't predict much efficacy or value in trying to engineer or accelerate such change, as in the Swedish experiment.
I don't seem much value in this experiment, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367556)
Now that men and women's societal roles are melding more, there may be more of a natural physical departure from those child-gender-purpose-toy associations. Long long time in the future, maybe our bodies even change to accommodate the new physical order. Maybe we're not male/female, but, you know, butch/femme, regardless of gender.
I suspect it would only take one catastrophe (natural or man-made) to cause liberal societies to revert back to caveman dynamics in a wink.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367556)
I don't know-- I just tried to say all that while my little boy is trying to interest me in some warlike game here. Which I kind of like, myself, of course. >;-)
"War-like games" aren't the problem - except when they are. The problem is gendering those games. Some of the fiercest warriors in history have been female. We tend to burn such women at the stake, stone them to death, or impose regulations like the US Ground Combat Exclusion Policy on them.

cane 06-28-2011 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 367567)
Yes, I realize....

The alternative isn't doing "nothing" - it's doing something entirely different. Metachromatism, not metagenesis.

If I, Chazz, can't articulate the details of how that might look with exacting intricacy, it doesn't mean that it isn't a worthy thing to imagine.
To quote myself "or maybe just write about it..." or "imagine" -to quote you.

So something you can't even articulate you want implimented in a pre-schools curriculum? Yes, imagine...

ScandalAndy 06-28-2011 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 367578)

"War-like games" aren't the problem - except when they are. The problem is gendering those games. Some of the fiercest warriors in history have been female. We tend to burn such women at the stake, stone them to death, or impose regulations like the US Ground Combat Exclusion Policy on them.
That, of course, is another topic altogether that causes me to get incredibly worked up, and would be a fantastic discussion for another thread, if you feel so inclined. I think you have a lot of good thoughts about these things and that would be a good conversation.

I also have a copy of a U.S. government report from the 1930s that says gay men make better soldiers. Clearly, that one wasn't widely circulated.

Chazz 06-28-2011 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cane (Post 367579)
To quote myself "or maybe just write about it..." or "imagine" -to quote you.

So something you can't even articulate you want implimented in a pre-schools curriculum? Yes, imagine...
LOL, yeah, that's it.

tapu 06-28-2011 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cane (Post 367572)
It is not an experiment, it's a life choice and a life ambition, a way of living. Not just for these kids then and there, but also for their parents.

I'll have to reread. I did not get that this was a long-established model, extending out to more levels of society. I thought it was a new program that was nowhere as developed as you describe it.

tapu 06-28-2011 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 367578)

I suspect it would only take one catastrophe (natural or man-made) to cause liberal societies to revert back to caveman dynamics in a wink.
I'm not sure how that relates to what you were quoting so I don't know how to respond. Can you connect it for me?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 367578)
"War-like games" aren't the problem - except when they are. The problem is gendering those games. Some of the fiercest warriors in history have been female. We tend to burn such women at the stake, stone them to death, or impose regulations like the US Ground Combat Exclusion Policy on them.

I don't think war-like games are the problem either. But to acknowledge the historical infelicities and get back into now, we can start making female toy soldiers.

There. Nice, practical, sensible move that can be implemented now. Not what we imagine... or what we want but can't articulate... or what we implement in children's education without clearly defined and concrete details, and without defining our assumptions.

Chazz 06-28-2011 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367577)
I have not seen one pre-school--now, granted I've only spent time in maybe 8-10 (and only on the coasts so yes, more progressive)--that delineates the sexes, the play, the toys in classroom set-up or on-going direction.
The class rooms in public schools are fairly PC these days. It's what goes on in the school yard....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367577)
Of course, there are promoting or limiting gender-directed behaviors that the caregivers have and that could be modified through outside observation and feedback. Overall, it has seemed to me that there is a natural division in interest that the kids display, along gender lines.
Yes.... There is a division of interest along sex lines - not gender lines. (I'm a gender deconstructionist.)

You and I may be lucky that our kids fit sex-based, gender expectations. Not all parents and kids are so lucky....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367577)
But... what exactly IS the problem when little girls choose the dolls and such and little boys choose the trains and such?
The problem is that the options are artificially limited whether a child opts to exercise them or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367577)
I live in a very progressive city (Portland, ME), and I think it's fairly well entrenched here that if "Biff" wants to wear a tutu to the museum play, he gets to. (real-life example) If "Nell" is into her trucks, no one worries a thing about it.
You're regionally blessed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367577)
What is happening in progressive classrooms like that that is undesirable or unnatural that could be done better? What change being engineered is desired, exactly?
As ScandalAndy suggested, that's a whole other thread.

Heart 06-28-2011 02:08 PM
It's not the toys or the pronouns, it's the value placed upon them... It's not whether a little girl/boy plays with dolls/trucks, it's whether playing with a doll is as valuable and meaningful as playing with a truck, it's whether wearing glitter is as important as wearing a sherrif's badge. It's not war-games OR playing house, it's both (and neither for those who want to draw). It's not male or female essentialism or constructionism, it's whether feminine/masculine and every permutation/blend of these energies/performances are equally valued and necessary to society.

And I don't really have an opinion about the school in Sweden, as long as the kids are safe, happy, have healthy snacks and take naps.

Heart

ETA: When a little boy plays with dolls and wears a tutu it causes more angst then when a little girl plays with trucks or wears a tie, because "girl things" are less valued, have less status and currency, than "boy things." That's why sissies are more closely policed than tomboys. So I guess my question is: does the Swedish school experiment have an impact on the valuing of gender tropes?

cane 06-28-2011 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367584)
I'll have to reread. I did not get that this was a long-established model, extending out to more levels of society. I thought it was a new program that was nowhere as developed as you describe it.
Didn't say long established, that was your word, and also I didn't describe it.
But yes, definitely extending to more levels, if not of society so of these peoples lives.

And with this being paid for by the government and supported by the national curriculum for schools and pre-school... Our government doesn't pay for experiments.

Chazz 06-28-2011 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367586)
I'm not sure how that relates to what you were quoting so I don't know how to respond. Can you connect it for me?
I think you may be thinking in terms of micro changes while I'm referring to macro change. As in a cultural metanoia (def. A fundamental change in beliefs; a transformative change of heart; a conversion).

Western culture consumes incremental progress and commodifies it, thereby taking the soul out of it, leaving things pretty much as they were before. (This is a whole other thread, too.) Heathcare was a progressive break through until the insurance companies turned it into a profit making enterprise that favored some while excluding far too many. "Progress" is not always progress for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapu (Post 367586)
I don't think war-like games are the problem either. But to acknowledge the historical infelicities and get back into now, we can start making female toy soldiers.

There. Nice, practical, sensible move that can be implemented now. Not what we imagine... or what we want but can't articulate... or what we implement in children's education without clearly defined and concrete details, and without defining our assumptions.
EUREKA ! ! ! ....Female toy soldiers, at last, a solution. :praying:

I mean no insult, but it's going to take hella more than female toy soldiers.

InsatiableHeart 06-28-2011 02:35 PM
I am quite new to this site and maybe my opinion will not mean anything at all but, with that being said, I teach 2nd grade and I have to say that I would not agree with having a gender neutral classroom. I think that we as a society are putting too much emphasis on being *politically correct* in our wording and actions and have forgotten how to just live and enjoy life. Children, by nature, just as adults, are curious and I think it causes many more issues than solves. Of course this is just my opinion.

Chazz 06-28-2011 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsatiableHeart (Post 367611)
I am quite new to this site and maybe my opinion will not mean anything at all but, with that being said, I teach 2nd grade and I have to say that I would not agree with having a gender neutral classroom. I think that we as a society are putting too much emphasis on being *politically correct* in our wording and actions and have forgotten how to just live and enjoy life. Children, by nature, just as adults, are curious and I think it causes many more issues than solves. Of course this is just my opinion.
Well said.... It's not about having a gender neutral classroom - it's about having a multi-gendered classroom that nurtures all gender expression.

Novelafemme 06-28-2011 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsatiableHeart (Post 367611)
I am quite new to this site and maybe my opinion will not mean anything at all but, with that being said, I teach 2nd grade and I have to say that I would not agree with having a gender neutral classroom. I think that we as a society are putting too much emphasis on being *politically correct* in our wording and actions and have forgotten how to just live and enjoy life. Children, by nature, just as adults, are curious and I think it causes many more issues than solves. Of course this is just my opinion.
Welcome to the site, InsatiableHeart!

InsatiableHeart 06-28-2011 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 367619)
Well said.... It's not about having a gender neutral classroom - it's about having a multi-gendered classroom that nurtures all gender expression.


Thank you and that is exactly my point.


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