Interesting. i can sympathize with some of it. It's not so much fun being invisible, and dating a transguy makes that more invisible. i guess one can find a way of coming out as a queer femme or dyke or whatever one is without mentioning the gender of who you are with.

But in general i am uncomfortable with talking about how femmes are not doing it right somehow. i don't know.

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.


Dylan

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.


Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

What I know for sure as a woman that when I'm in public with my guy SOCIETY sees us as queer. We are not given straight privilege. Our experiences in the world are no different then the other Femme-Butch dynamic couples. I also know that the world doesn't see him as a man and that he sure can't celebrate his maleness out there either. Some Male IDs, FTMs, TGs and Trans can pass as men so can some butches. Some can all the time and some not.

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

I thought this was interesting.

http://gayrights.change.org/blog/vie...eople_is_bogus


And I thought this was really interesting too. It is more of a book review but it states some of the things that I have heard very well.

http://veganideal.org/content/our-bo...sexual-healing

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

*I* happen to Own 2 guys, Nico and Grant. I don't see them as this brand spanking new version of *man* they are who they are, both with different journeys, stories and backgrounds. They are both members of our Queer community, be it here at home, or here on the interwebs. I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

We don't face any problem regarding our Queerdom around town, or at any functions or any of the places we frequent. I do feel that maybe just maybe I sense a lil misandry going on just a touch. I hope that at least one will come in here and speak of his place and his right to be in this community. Nico does not have the allowance since when we talk about it here at home his head wants to explode so I would rather it not explode here and him get put in the corner THEN have to deal with me, which is by far worse.

*I* this is me speaking from my me space, feel it to be oogy when expectations are put on these guys by ANYONE so when I see a post about glass slippers, and dual spirituality and how they are so sensitive cause they were women at one time... It oogs me out when I see it done to butches as well, cause lemme tell you, both my guys are sensitive, I AM NOT does this make me a guy? No... Both my guys clean, cook and make things comfy for me.. Does this make them female like? No... Both my guys are not the stereotypical masculines, I on the other hand for a girl am... That kind of fethisizing is creepy and just sets one up for failure...

*I* don't limit myself to a specific kind of person to date, I like to date and fuck whomever I am attracted to that falls into our beautiful gender spectrum. Happens to be that I fell for a guy. I don't feel that this does not leave me a space here in BF Planet though I never really fell into the umbrella of butch femme relationships. I found and find them to be to stiffling for *me* though it does work for others!!

*I* also get twitchy when I see men refered to as creepy crawlers and other names, here's why. I am a mother of 3 men, and frankly not all men regardless if they are queer, straight, gay, bi have faults, just as we do, not ALL men are going to be knuckle draggers, just as not all women fit into the whole *stepford* picture perfect kinda thang. I hope I really do that we can all agree that there is a place for the men in our community, and if they choose to have a thread where they go say whatever well we can either go read it and A. ignore it B. read it and start a thread discussing what is going on without being ugly and C. just be appreciative we have somewhere to go online

That is all I have a carpet to clean.

Again, thank you for explaining this. I understand what you're saying.

I wonder if there is a difference when female ID'd butches do the same thing? I have seen that in real time. (And I know exactly what you mean about the adolecent celebration - I find that annoying too.)

I also wonder if that is what celebration is really about? Hopefully someone can describe it better then I, as a woman, ever could.

For me I see differences in gender. I don't see them as bad or good, just that they are. They are generalizations that apply to men and women. Not ALL men and women, but the majority - which is why the generalizations exist.

Maybe the emasculation of Trans, male IDs, TGs and FTMs comes from that sense of having been wronged by a male dominated society in general? (sorry, I am thinking and typing at the same time so it may not make sense outside of my head.) I know that I was personally harmed by cis men. Badly. Beaten, raped, abused, kept from being promoted, ect. Yet, I don't hold those who were born in the wrong body responsible for what happened to me. Friend or not. I don't see them differently because of my personal experience with cis men. In fact I don't hold cis men in general responsible for what happened to me by other cis men.

Can trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs be feminists? Is that at all apart of what sometimes happens with embracing maleness within our community? The expectation seems to be that in order to be a feminist one has to BE a woman, or happy about the fact that they were born a woman. Are feminist and Trans incongruant? Can women in our community tolerate trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs only on the periphery? Is there a sense that being trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs is a choice that people make thereby chosing to align with the "other" or "opposing" team?

I don't really have the answers to these questions, but if I were sitting in a room with all of you I would be interested in having a discussion about all of these things. I do think about it often. And I know we see it play out right in front of us.

On this particular site (and on the other site), and in this particular community, butches and men who partner with men or male-id'd butches DO 'lose their queer cards'. There is rampant homophobia, transphobia, and bi-phobia all over both of these sites. I have been told (on the other site) that I don't exist, because butches ONLY partner with femmes and/or women. I've heard many times that it's 'gross' when butches are into butches or men. I have seen whole posts that just contain line after line of 'Ewwwwwwwwwww'.

So, seriously, I was speaking across the spectrum. Again, queer is NOT just for women anymore


I get that you personally don't want to see it. That's fair enough. There's lots of things I personally don't want to see on this site. That's why I don't go into certain threads. I mean, if I go into a thread that I KNOW KNOW KNOW is going to squick me out, and I see something that squicks me out, I really have no one to blame but myself. I appreciate your honesty.

I get that your experience is different than mine. In my (me,me,me) personal experience, I have found the MOST sexist comments to have come from female ID'd butches who then use the excuse, "What? We're all women". That has been in real time as well as on these sites. I've found these comments even far more sexist than the comments made around me when I worked with roofers all day. So, we each have our own experiences...it doesn't squick me out when I see butches celebrating their butchness though. I mean, yeah, the sexist comments piss me off, but I don't find it inherent in butches celebrating their masculinity or butchness. I find it inherent in certain individuals.


Dylan

I can actually appreciate and respect what Martina is saying. I think she and a whole lot of other people see the b/f sites as *primarily* (not *soley*, but primarily) spaces for queer and/or lesbian females. I also hear her saying that she gets there is room here for "celebrations of men-being-men" and that she just doesn't want to join in those celebrations.

I can respect that.

In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too.

I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think.

Respectfully,
Thinker

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

I have to ask cause I am taking a break and I am curious..

What would happen if a guy went into a FIB thread and started this sort of dialogue?

What would be the response would they be welcomed?

I truly am curios here..:o

Adorable I'm not really sure how to elaborate any further. There are some individual men that I know that are nice people. Beyond that I don't give much attention or my energy to men in general.

And yet......

It would be fanfreakingtastic if we could have a discussion where you two DIDN'T feel the need to do this. Whatever the hell "this" is...

By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.

There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

Do you feel like in any way that this has to do with how you see trans, male IDs, FTMs or TGs?

I am not wording it well but I know what I mean. UGH.

Does your choice of not giving attention to men in general at all conflict with you in your associations with trans, male IDs, ftms, or TGs? Do you personally see it as a choice they are making?

:|

I guess this answers my questions..

With all due respect Bulldog, I was merely curious, and no ill intent was behind my question, matter of fact I asked what I know is a question a couple people wanted to ask

I just ask cause well I am curious and I am not scared nor intimated into not asking difficult questions.

No one asked you to leave.. Just clarifying that as well.

Dylan, I am not being the slightest bit defensive. I never said I didn't say anything- that actually doesn't make sense. I think this is derailing the conversation. So please enjoy your conversation. I am taking a bow- and no I am not "quitting" or leaving in a huff. Enjoy your conversation.

No I understand. No offense taken. I think the dialogue between me and Dylan is not productive and is derailing. I will read the upcoming convo.

It is a queer site, it is very welcoming to all kinds of genders and sexes... but it is a Butch Femme queer site which by it's very nature (nobody jump me I'm not saying "natural") is female and lesbian orientated and historical roots is based in women's history. That's just a reality and not someone's attempt trying to keep anybody out... I personally think we're a very open site.

Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Anyway I don't see why people in some instances seeing a difference whatever as that may be as their experience (though I don't agree with generalizations) as a big problem.

I've heard a couple transmen (agreed not many want anything to do with it) have expressed they feel they "get" women more, and they honor and value much of the part of their lives before transition, and I don't think that makes them any less as men... that may also be how some people view a difference between some transmen and men who aren't trans.

Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships? Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care? If he does, shouldn't he be the one to deal with it? I think when someone paints these scenarios as some femme who doesn't see her guy as a real man and he just folds to it, it makes it real hard for them BOTH all around because your putting your spin on their relationship.

Also you started this up with, transmen aren't some duality of genders and anymore sensitive than whatever, I agree most seem to feel that way... but to go on to drag all kinds of people into the mud, femmes who've experienced transman as more sensitive is inferring somehow they're not real men, questioning the motives of couples who've referred to each other in a way that Dylan doesn't like, then the whole B-F community cause maybe it's their fault for putting the screws to trans couples and pulling queer cards (really?), and female ID's are the most sexist talking people around (worse than roofers even).

This is all off the top of my head and sure talk about anybody you want however you want but then you want to complain about generalizations?

Anyway I know transmen who want to be recognized as transmen, who make a distinction between between themselves, experiences and feelings and men who aren't of a trans experience.

I just feel like if you want people to call you a man, that's fine, scream it from the rooftops, but I don't think it's necessary to make it out that this community just doesn't respect transmen... all transmen are different (just like the rest of us human beings) and I don't think we should start referring to anyone by just one person's personal preferences.

Transmen are a piece of this community, and should be respected as such but it works both ways and the community, femmes, butches of any ID, no one should be dragged through the mud to make a point anymore than they should. Whether you think you are doing that... I'm just saying what it looks like too me.

And, personal level... I never have responded well to people going around in demanding tone that I respect their "man-ness". Again personal level, I have respect for transmen, men, males... just not just that scenario. That tends to just get a "get over you bad self" reaction from me. How about if I just call you Dylan and think of you as male... cause that's what I usually do with guys here who have a transition experience.

Metropolis

An add... "formerly female"? Never ever seen that to sum up transmen... could have missed it, who knows... I agree it would seem disrespectful depending on the context.

And, Snow... I know that was to Bull, but in my experience I've never ever started a thread about FIB where males of whatever ID trans included didn't come in with their "pov".... many times in droves.

Thank you for your kind response Met!



oh and I did not address Bulldog directly.

*I* asked a question to all... not just her

I do think (and see) that there is some weird system in place where whenever people are talking about identity x people from identity y tend to take all the talk about identity x as a personal affront to identity y.

In fact, I have had more than one person pm me to say that they feel like every time they try to honour people from identity x that people from identity y take that as some sort of an insult or a dig. When in reality the two aren't related in any way at all. I can give respect to identity x all I want, and resent the implication that my respect for identity x is a presumed dislike of identity y. That's simply not the case.

And before anybody thinks that I'm talking about them personally - I'm not. I've heard/seen it both ways. The males on this site think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome the females are, thin people think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome fat people are, Conservatives think they're being dissed when Democrats talk about how proud they are to be Democrats. It's really very silly.

I get that sometimes people DO put a "what I am is awesome because what I am is not what you are" spin on celebrating who they are. But that is not always the case. In fact, I would wager that that is frequently NOT the case.

When Dylan (for example) says that he does not want to be viewed as female, formerly-female, female-ish, reminiscent of female, female with facial hair, etc....he is not saying that female is bad. He's simply saying that he is not female by any stretch of the imagination. If he is offended by being seen as some sort of female - it's not because he thinks that female is bad...it's simply because he's not female. It's because the person isn't seeing HIM but rather seeing the version of him that they would prefer to see. Get it?

If this were another thread and I was to say that "Big Is Beautiful" that does not imply that I think that thin is grody. It just doesn't.

You and I have disagreed on this before, and we'll continue to disagree on this. Butch-femme culture is NOT lesbian/female only. It never has been.


Firstly, I'm wondering why you're speaking for femmes. And this is something I often wonder. There are a number of femmes participating in this thread, and with the exception of Adorable, they've all laid into me at one time or another. I don't think they need you or Bulldog to protect them from me. IF a femme feels anyway, I'm sure she/he/per is quite able to speak up.

Secondly, I never said it was a 'just femme' thing or only femmes do this or that. It's been inferred and/or assumed by others that I said that, but I didn't. I've even clarified that two or three times so far.

Thirdly, part of the issue I'm having is WHY some people might wonder why there's a man on this site. AGAIN, WHY does a transman *have* to identify himself (or be identified by someone else) as TRANS? This is a QUEER community. QUEER doesn't mean 'women only'. BF doesn't mean 'women only'. There are queer men on this site. WHY is it so threatening (that people would 'wonder') why there's a man here? Following through with this line of reasoning...why is it 'safer' if it's a TRANSman as opposed to another man?

You just said, you don't know of any cismen on this site...so then, why do transmen ALWAYS have to ID as TRANS first?



It's funny that a couple/few weeks ago, in the Men With Boobs thread when I stated I thought the conversation of what Cynthia Nixon had to say was not worth having, you came in and put me in my place about me weighing in on determining what is and isn't important to butches. I can pull the post if you want me to. You don't even know if I identify as butch or not, yet you felt compelled to tell me it wasn't MY place to determine what an important conversation is to butches.

Yet here you are determining what is and isn't a 'big problem' for transmen.

How does that work, Met? No one gets to speak for butches, and men don't get to speak for femmes, but met gets to speak for butches, transfolk, men, and femmes.

I've laid out what the problem is...but you want to defend people's right to erase others.

Great if some transmen feel that way. I certainly don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is people basing ALL of Transdom on what a 'couple' transmen have to say about how they feel.

[quote]Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships?
I don't...I've stated that plenty of times in this thread, and the thread that sparked this conversation

Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care?
I don't. I'm commenting in the same fashion that you're commenting on what you've experienced. And I'm wondering about some things. I wonder about a lot of things, Met. Again, I've stated that numerous times

Um, I have no issue with One's PERSONAL experience. Again, I've stated that numerous times. If One has encountered sensitive transguys, fanfuckingtastic! Let the skies part and angels blow trumpets...yippee.

My problem lies (again, as I've stated about a bajillion times now), when those personally experienced attributes get chalked up to ALL transmen as though they're inherent characteristics. You know, just like you get a little pissy when someone says, "Butches are just men with boobs"

And yeah, when that generalization of (let's say) sensitivity gets linked to being a 'feminine/woman' trait, and transmen are then told that because it's a feminine/woman trait, it must link back to their special knowledge of women and being a woman, and now that men's IDs as men are erased, and they're referred to as 'two-spirited'...I have a problem with that. I just wanted to repeat it one more fucking time, because apparently typing it out 100 times isn't a good enough explanation. It's still going to get misconstrued. It's funny that you tell me I'm dragging all of this out and repeating it 100 times, yet it still seems you haven't even read it once.

And unless you think it's ok to say something like, "I see butches as male, because they're so masculine, and being masculine is a male thing"...I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

I didn't 'question' anyone's motives, Met. That's a little melodramatic, no? I *wondered* something. Same as you wonder things.

And yeah, Met...'pulling queer cards' happens. It happens to those who partner with transguys. It happens to butches who date men. It happens to those who've been married. It happens to lots of people, Met. If it's not YOUR personal experience, then it's not. But yeah, Met it happens. It's happened to my current partner and my previous partner on these sites. It's happened to friends of mine on these sites. And I've heard it too. So really, I don't even understand why you're arguing someone else's personal experience. Others in this and previous threads have stated the same thing. IT'S AN ISSUE, even if it's not an issue for you personally. Same as he-ing all butches is an issue.

And yes, in my personal experience (as I stated earlier), I have experienced the most sexist comments coming from FIBs. Sorry if that bothers you, but yeah, it's true. I've said it numerous times throughout numerous threads. I've even started threads about it. The first one I started was YEARS ago. So, yeah, it's my personal experience.

Great. Me too! What's your point?

Make it out like this community doesn't respect transmen? Ahhh, yes, because calling out some equals calling out a whole community. Also, why is calling out an ism/phobia considered a bad thing, Met? Why is that.

And this isn't about me, Met. This isn't 'just one person's personal...'. Others have stated the same thing...which started this whole particular conversation in the first place.

Also, being that you're not a man or a transman, I don't understand why you think you get to weigh in on it. I mean, lest we forget, even though you don't know if I ID as butch or not, you've decided I'm not allow to weigh in on Cynthia Nixon or her commentary on Men With Boobs. So, again, what's with the almighty double standard?


Pardon The Formatting, I'm Too Busy To Fix It,
Dylan

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

No, you're not off topic. :)

**cough**
 

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

Oh cripes Dylan. As far as weighing in, I didn't weigh in AS a transman or even AS a (insert identity of choice here), but as a community member which you yourself brought "the community" into the conversation with your comments about the community.

This last paragraph by you I've quoted is a good enough example to me that you would rather dismantle and put you're add ons and spin to what I've said rather than to the conversation at hand... which is not about me Dylan.

What I said, it's all there for people to read decide for themselves what my message was... or they can agree with you... they can also check out the men with boobs conversation and see what I actually said.

I choose to leave it as it all stands as it speaks for itself... if you want to tell everybody what I meant and what I do that's your thing.

I'm sure you have a lot of valid things to say Dylan but sometimes it gets lost in the (apparently looks like to me) personal stuff.

Metro

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

This is where it gets icky for me and I bounce out of the convo.. I watch this and *remember* the beginning of what started a rush fire of label and gender threads. I think that is AWESOME, but now with all this and all this finger pointing on who is more welcomed here than whom I must say it's yucky. I can't understand why there can not be a conversation in a queer space without it turning into what is going on here.

Can't just everyone have space here?

I am truly curious cause I can't see how we want the straights to accept us when we can't even fucking be nice to one another.. That means all of us...

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do

i would not go into a chest thumping thread in the trans zone and be squicked or criticize. There are such threads. i don't read them. i personally have no problem with their being there.

But let's say there was a lot chest thumping all over the place -- by whatever gender. That would alter my experience of the site. i would be less interested in it. Unless i am acquainted with the chest thumper, that stuff is sometimes triggering to me.

i don't want to experience that OR make the other person feel bad.

i just wanted to quote this because i really appreciated it. Thanks!