Okay Snow, no Dylan in the equation. The title of this thread uses the word "breeder," so I'm not sure how to talk about how hurtful that word is, without using the word. We could say b******.

For me to talk about that word and how it has harmed me, I would talk about patriarchy. But that's me.

Not trying to nag, but just not getting how I'm not on topic.

Heart

weighing in when I probably shouldn't....
 

I would love to hear what you have to say about the word, including the patriarchy part.

Hey pretty girl!

I did it already this morning. His ass is officially kicked.

I don't like the term, because it's obviously hurtful. Dylan and I know that. I wouldn't refer to my mom that way, nor would Dylan. I think though I have used it in the context of saying that "patriarchy expects women to be as such" when clearly women are not and should not be seen as such.

But then we've already had the round and round discussion on that.

We respect women. Dylan respects women (or I wouldn't be with him).

One last note...I repped Sue to say that when I was a caseworker with CPS years ago, judges actually used the term (and one in particular here in Austin) to throw at women to make them feel bad for having so many children without thought as to what was happening to the children. Fathers were referred to as "sperm donors" and the mothers, just vessels for that, or the B word. It was gross and humiliating for women. Nevermind that the judge did not realize in one particular case that the woman had been gangraped oh say 7 or 8 times. Nevermind that in another case a woman had been raped and decided to keep and struggle through raising her daughter. Nevermind any of that.

**ETA** (I am not saying or condoning that a judge should ever use the term against women, but am pointing out specifically how assumptions were made and placed on the women despite her circumstance, which is some really fucked up shit all the way around, so please don't misread me here! Thanks.)

And Snow: Will you please buy me a cuppa coffee instead? I promise, I am much better company!!!

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

After reading through this thread and responses to words used in other threads perceived as 'offensive', I have to say I am sitting here with a wrinkled brow.

I am thinking that some here just enjoy debating, some here are supersensitive to word choices, some are narcisstic, some are referees, some are educators, some are activists.

I agree that words are powerful weapons and powerful expressions of thought. We, humans, in years past were raised by the rules determined in our small corner of the world in which we were raised. This includes morals, ideas, spiritual belief, image of self,
image of others and opportunities. IMHO, when we are adults, we have the ability to decipher whether what we were exposed to growing up 'fits' into the collective Society(whatever it is). I firmly believe in exchange of ideas and opinions. What I strongly object to is the 'one ups' some seem to have in response to another's opinion. I don't think anyone should have to defend what word or phrases they find offensive. If it offenses anyone, than once I you're aware of it. Dont repeat it! (unless of course that is your intention than the you 'deserve/wish' to be dissed)

What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive.

This from a mother, grandmother, woman, femme, lover of stones, human being.

I am confused by all this right....

I can't understand how someone asking for the word breeder not to be used to describe a woman's pregnancy can not be understood..

I am not stupid I understand the patriarchy, and what was hammered into us.

But can't it be understood that maybe when some of us hear that word, it makes us cringe, cause god damn I was pregnant, not bred, and it was a terrifying, happy, life altering experience..

It fucking SUCKS to have it reduced to nothing when someone calls you a breeder or refers to it as a breeder thing or have been bred or any insinuation of that...

Can't you get that? Cause that is what we are saying at least I am.

Damn, it would be like me being an inconsiderate ass hat and refering to someone as hy when they are she...


end of rant.

That was the original intention of this thread.

Why the hell not in here?

We aren't some frail wall flowers who can't hear the word. damn.

Let's have the hard discussion about the word. How it's used to oppress, to describe, and to hurt women with..

It's what this thread is about hurtful terms here lemme requote the title of the thread for ya..




I even emphasized it for ya

Right????

:seeingstars:

Ok, now wait a minute, because when I brought up that exact conversation...you said not to use the word.

When I made the points you've said here regarding the patriarchy, you said you didn't want to hear the word because it's been used against you and you're sensitive to it.

So what is it? You want to have the conversation, or are we not allowed to say the word. I'm getting mixed messages


Dylan

yanno..

I am done...

I think I have explained over and over and over what I meant.

Use the word, don't use it I don't give a fuck at this point

I'll share.
 

I've used the term in reference to straight women because, if I'm being honest, it was a way to disparage them and their choices in order to make me feel better about the fact that I did not have children/family of my own/picket fence (and at that/those moments DID want that). Let's face it, it's a mean/ugly word used to put someone down and elevate oneself. Why do we do that? For my example, I'd say it was #2.


Why We Judge (just a little list found on the internet w/ a quick search)

1. We don’t know how to love.
2. We are insecure.
3. We are influenced by our past conditioning.
4. We are afraid of something in someone else.
5. We are afraid of something within ourselves.
6. We are hiding the fact that we don’t understand something.
7. Our position of power feels threatened.
8. We are unaware about how our thoughts become reality.
9. We aren’t evolved enough to have empathy for others.
10. It’s a habit.

Alright. I get what you're saying.

My original use of the word was in a patriarchal sense in that women have been viewed as baby making machines (aka breeders) for thousands and thousands of years. It's laced and woven into each of the three main religions that have ruled western society.

It's even the basis for this whole "mothers are saints" idea that has seeped into this thread. Becoming pregnant is not necessarily a 'sacred' act. It's a biological process. Giving birth doesn't automatically make any person a sacred being, saintly figure, loving person, or exalted being. It simply means a biological process has taken place. Yet, once again...thanks to patrairchy, when a person (generally a married woman) completes this process that person is seen as a sacred being (mother mary full of grace) (unless that person is unwed, at which point that person (meaning the woman) is seen as 'soiled'.

And yes, I'm speaking patriarchally and not about myself, particular people, ALL men, etc


Dylan

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

I sure love my mom. I guess that's the main feeling I'm getting from this thread, reading back over it this morning (okay afternoon but it's still morning to me).

I think conception, pregnancy and birth are pretty damn sacred. I think life is pretty damn sacred. I'm extremely grateful that I exist. My mom could have simply aborted my inconvenient ass, but she instead has made a lifetime of sacrifices for my sake. To me, that's pretty sacred and I am extremely grateful. I have a friend who got pregnant in her teens, carried that child to term and gave him up for adoption. I think that's pretty sacred too. I've had friends who had abortions because they felt their own well-being was more important, and I think this also is sacred because it honors life. I know there are bad moms, but if nothing else, to get here, we were all carried around for approximately 9 months taking up space and feeding off of another person's body when we were too small and fragile and undeveloped to survive outside the womb, and there's something sacred about that to me.

perhaps a derail?
 

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Interesting point.

The number of children that is considered desirable or even acceptable varies alot from culture to culture as well.

Friends of mine in Switzerland told me that they were celebrated for their first child, got modest congratulations on their second, and then dirty looks and snide comments in public from strangers after their third. They are white, middle class, professionals...yet Swiss culture evidently frowns on families of more than 2 children as being environmentally and personally irresponsible.

Guess it all depends on where you're coming from...

'What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive'.

Hey guess what! Medusa start this thread in December 09. Thanks Medusa!
Maybe this thread shoud be required reading before posting! :blushing:

Isn't that show only popular in terms of rubbernecking? I don't know one person (in real life) who doesn't make fun of the Duggars. Hell, ---I--- make fun of the Duggars. I think of them as irresponsible and self-congratulatory.

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

I think some women are going to view motherhood as very sacred, and so it indeed is. Some women are going to view it as torture, have no connection to a child or children, to the point of harming that child or killing that child. I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

I remember many years ago clearly debating with a friend about the "natural" instincts of motherhood, and she schooled me in the knowledge that loving a child wasn't a natural instinct of all women. It made me change my thought process on it all (I was like 23 or so, I think, so very naive). It taught me not to think in absolutes.

I don't know if that makes any sense or is a derail, but I view motherhood as sacred, when it is sacred (meaning that a mother views it as such). I don't view motherhood as sacred when clearly it is not sacred, say in the cases where it has only brought the worst of feelings toward motherhood because, well, motherhood was the mark of oppression and not one of joy, as viewed in the personal experience of a mother. I guess I am speaking from the place, that if a mother told me that she did not view her experience of motherhood as sacred, but instead as tortuous (it's been said to me before), then I wouldn't argue with her and tell her that she is indeed wrong on that, and ALL of motherhood is sacred. I hope this makes sense.

I am not a mother, so therefore, my personal experience cannot inform me if that experience is indeed sacred. I could very well be the mother that views it differently so I cannot judge there and say all of motherhood is sacred.

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation. :candle:

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

What I really wanted to explore was the offensive way we use the term against one another (or anyone) but I can see that that is limiting so let's just discuss.

Exactly. And I would admit to typically trying to avoid the word "sacred" when describing motherhood unless a mother tells me that is her word to describe her experience, because I tend to quite shy away from words that do have a certain "religious" quality to them (it's my stubborn atheism perhaps) . But if that is the experience of the mother, then that, to me, is a beautiful, marvelous thing.

I was half-way through with labor before I realized I was in it (5 centimeters dilated). She was born in under 2 hours. My obstetrician looked at me and said, "You need to be camped out on the hospital grounds the last two months of your next pregnancy. You're a natural breeder."

He really said that. I was twenty years-old. I knew enough to be mortified.