I don't believe I've ever seen FIB's say that male ID receive male privilege, or the posts you've spoken of either. More so I've seen many conversations involving all ID's, femme, butches, etc speaking on if transmen receive it.

If there's that "common belief", I guess no one told me, can't help you. I could speculate, but it's be just that speculation, cause I don't believe they do myself. Besides I think there's enough speculation around here enough as it.

Metro

Dylan,

I have to be honest, I don't think that this thread was started about the *gender war*, but rather, to help heal after it.. Or maybe take a break from it..

I can't "tackle" your question, because I don't see it as anything but YOU bringing the "war" back in here.

Just being honest here..

I mean, I get that you are trying to get to the base of things, trying to uncover the hows and whys.. But sometimes, the answer is that some people refuse to let go of thier "side" and that is what keeps this debate going on.

How would you help build a bridge so that we don't have to be "at war"? How do you feel we, as a group, can stop hurting or disrespecting one another?

Not being snarky, Dylan, I'm just so friggin TIRED of the same stuff.. I feel that this thread has been a place of relative safety from the gender stuff.. We all came to this site for a reason, and I doubt it was to debate on who's right and who's wrong when it comes to someone's PERSONAL gender identification for themselves..

That's all I got.. I'm going to put an ice pack on my heart for a while.. Think it's been a bit battered lately.

-Tony

PS- It looks like I signaled you out, Dylan, I'm not trying to.. Sorry it comes off like that, im just too tired to explain more then that.. maybe I will later. Take care.

That's cool. I wasn't sure. I just saw a lot of people referencing the 'gender wars', and I thought instead of just referencing, maybe someone wanted to actually talk about it. But I'm cool not talking about it too, cuz I'm sick of that conversation too.

So maybe we could all stop side skirting it, and just drop it? Cuz I'm kind of at the shit or get off the pot (openly discuss it or shut up about) point.

So six o' one/ half dozen o' the other...I'm e-z goin'

Thanks for your decent post, and thanks for your posts atlast and met


So...This Is One Of Those Bonding Threads?,
Dylan

maybe we could bond about how sick we are of the gender wars conversation/debate..

Again, not that it isn't important, but I for one feel pretty defeated by it already.. *pulls out his white hanky*

I say Sir/Madam/Human Being.. I do surrender, I do have a gender and it isn't like everyone else's.. You win. ;)

-Tony, who hopes that his humer shows through in this attempt to be cleaver..

I agree....I was totally into when we were talking about values and what not.

You know, I don't deny it is going on and has been going on for years, both online and off. Why else would I feel so damned heart sick over this stuff? People are getting hurt, people are defensive and offensive, there are clear sides and clear "captions" if not generals.. Hell yeah there is a gender war going on here.

The question that I'd like answered is this; what questions do we ask, not only of others but of ourselves about all this? How can we help respect bounderies so that all can live in a comfortable balance here? How can we help mediate the sides so that there are clear and set lines that we don't cross?

I don't know. I am totally open to discussing this, my heart and soul bare, if it will bring some kind of peace. Can this happen? Can we come to the table without arms or armor?

If there is a war here, this is what has to happen.

So.. How do we do this?

I don't think anyone is dismissing or avoiding it, I just don't think this thread was starting for that particular discussion.

Not that I'm attempting to rehash, but I think I must have missed the discussion about male ID'd/trans people being asked to leave the site. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

I also think there have been / are some good conversations happening in other threads and that we maybe don't have to do it again in this one. The values discussion was a good one and I am interested in the various viewpoints on that. I'm not exactly sure where I fall so I haven't posted anything yet but I'm working my way to it.

would someone please send me a PM about the "gender wars" - a paragraphical synopsis would do? I am not joking ... just kinda new to online discussions. And no, I do not see this in r/l ... I have few butch friends ... most are andro or closeted. most of my friends are femmes or straight women. I've made a few friends here, and have made plans with AtLast to have coffee or such as we live near one another. But there is so much that I do not understand ... all the assumptions of malfeasance, overt hostility, sniping, etc. and I do not comprehend this and think that a bit of history would help me.
Thanks in advance, and peace to all

I hope you come back. What you posted does belong, but, I can say it happens both ways and my intent here was to look at (not deny) these issues from a different way of relating to each other.

My off-line, real-time relationships with my trans friends are simply nothing like what happens here. And WE DO have these discussions all of the time. What goes on in our being able to see each other's viewpoints is that we have sound bonding as friends. Also, a history of in some cases, many years. Some have once identified as butch, others have not. There are transmasculine butches, too. Some have absolutely no interest in even being on a B-F site, others do and do have a point of personal reference with the B-F dynamic overall.

Maybe, I am just barking up the wrong tree in thinking that if we could apply some of how we interact outside of these sites, we can kick that line in the sand to the curb. If this true, I'll accept it. Can't change this by myself.

A couple of transguys have talked some about their understanding of butches and what we experience and have close butch friends. I have talked about this the other way around and even my protectiveness of trans friends sometimes. And they can be protective of me, too. Thus, my just not getting our gender/butch/trans-wars.

It is not lost on me that simply my having feminist, lesbian identifiers on my profile along with woman and butch can be the first (sometimes only) place a trans (and frankly, a MIB) member may come at me from a negative space. I can't fix this. However, my using these is not about anyone else but myself. Just as it is for trans members it is important for me to distinguish myself. And this just seems like something that is important to each individual person.

It has always stumped me why words, or sexual preferences, really, instead of content of ideas gets us in tangles. Let's take trans and butch out the equation and use stone or daddy, for example. Is that the entirety of the person? And why would someone take issue with these in the first place? They are what that person wants to have on their profile, for themselves. Yes, both have particular meanings, yet, it is just dumb to think you know everything about that person based on these terms.

There have been times I have thought, just put butch or nothing in that line. But, I'm not nothing and I am comfortable with my butch identity simply as it is. And I'm not going to change my profile just to appease others- and wouldn't want any one else to do this.

The only thing I know for myself is that it would be great if we could get this stuff put into perspectives that add to the community and understanding, not detract from it.

Actually, I feel that butch or trans is really not the problem, things get off to the races with sexual and political identification more here. Usually based upon false and preconceived notions with our reading between the lines (someone else brought this up). We all have personal biases, but certainly don't have to stay married to them.

Hell, I’ve had a PM come my way about this thread stating the person wasn’t a lesbian, so they were not going to join in. WTF? I don’t see lesbian in the title, do you? And I sure see a lot of posters that do not identify as lesbians posting here. Obviously, this person was only considering my profile as the OP and believing that that is who the thread is for. Jesus, I’ve even posted about some personal incidences with other lesbians that I found negative, especially towards a Transman friend of mine! Asshole, transphobic, anti-B-F lesbians exist. But, that isn’t going to change my sexual preference. I just have to tune-up as many as I can when they fuck with me or my trans friends. You know, educate….!!!

Like I said in the OP, as long as we remain civil, discuss whatever strikes you around all of this. I have to keep myself in check due to some of the hurtful crap that can happen and I think this fits for everyone. Sure, I've had my moments of anger, who hasn't? But, maybe we will get to a better way of communicating.

I too have been enjoying just how...pleasant it has all been. Really, really nice. And I would like it to remain the way it is.

BUT, I am a stickler for detail (lol) and with all due respect to others' opinions, I clearly remember a discussion (on this site), around Male Id'd Butches receiving male privilege. I remember it b/c it was so ludicrous. I remember one person asking, something along the lines of "And how exactly does the stranger know that the Butch identifies as male in order to give them male privilege?", or something like that.

I don't think that us not talking about the gender wars here is us being in denial. I also don't think that it is necessarily the calm before the storm. My hope is that some change has occurred in people's thinking and that there is more respect for the various masculine gender IDs and that things will be a bit different. My hope is that we will all do better in thinking before we react. My hope is that we all approach things assuming the intent is good from the poster.

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though! :)

i have an ex-gf who used to tell me that i was too simplistic in my thinking. maybe she's right.

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

some ppl i like, some ppl i don't like, and the rest i don't spend much time on either way. that's pretty much how my "real" life works.

i plan to be burdened with this "still life" i'm living for only a couple more years. once i'm debt free again, i'm hitting the road, going where the four winds blow me. when i travel, i tend to reach out to folks in whatever area i'm headed to so we can meet up and see how things go in a live situation. it's always a great treat for me, to hear the tone, inflection, nuance in a live conversation with people. i like getting that 'feel' for people by spending time with them and seeing their corner of this big ass planet.

for what it's worth...your mileage may vary.

Just my opinion here
 

Agreed!! Thank you. I understand labeling yourself and making sure other people understand it. If they don't take you as you are then eff em. The bird is the word! Meaning the middle finger.

I think these two posts say a lot.

I have to be honest...from my ME place.

I don't see this thread accomplishing very much (no offense, Atlast). Perhaps I'm still jaded after the Borders And Bridges thread (before some of y'all's time...same premise basically..it went straight down the shitter and got really ugly, then created and even uglier spin off thread with some of the most transphobic and evil shit I've ever seen posted). Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption. And why do I think there'll be another eruption? Because of the two posts above. We don't listen, and because of that, we don't trust.

How do I know we don't listen?

Because I posted something that as a transman *happens*. The first response is a person outside the male ID telling me it doesn't happen. Met, of course you don't see it happen...you're not male ID'd. I wasn't *asking* you if it happened, I was telling you it happens. Another female ID'd butch says the same thing. Again...I wasn't asking if it happens...I'm telling you it happens. Just like y'all say male pronouns are the default. Another male ID'd butch says the same thing, and he's told (again), "Uh Uh, this doesn't happen." No offense, but um, just cuz you don't see it, it doesn't mean its not happening.
The other response was, "Yeah? It goes both ways, dude! Here's what WE deal with."

Now, I'm NOT rehashing this! I'm merely pointing oput how we DO NOT listen, and how that turns into the b.s. that takes place. This is why people don't feel heard, and this is how the distrust happens, and this is why it's always so ugly when the shit blows up.


Dylan

It feels like some strong contrasts here, and admittedly, I don't know nothing about the past or about "gender wars." But I hear/see some overtures of bonding going on, the kumbaya as Dylan says. Then, there's a "but wait" kind of thing, where the past, the ugly past is brought up over and over again. Whatever that past might be, whatever the pattern/s that exist, isn't it possible to try again, to move forward. Kumbaya used to make everyone feel kind of good, albeit, short term. Perhaps we can take the feel good, the apparent progress (and I don't know if this is progress, but it feels like it) and not forget the past explosions, but take that which is good and push forward ... never forgetting what it could become? I'm not sure if this makes any sense. I'm approaching the time of night that my brain slows way down, but I hope that you get at least some of what I'm saying.
I really am disturbed to hear about all of this, and had hoped that it was possible to bond with, and make friends with, some of the butches and transmen here. I don't care about how you ID, and hope that you feel the same about me. And, yeah, Corky, we are just friggin' humans in the final count.

It's like you're expecting something bad to happen. From my life experience the thoughts that you put out is what the universe gives back. The OP was inclusive of all of us, butch/transmen. I think if anyone of us saw someone being transphobic they would be reported. Otherwise the thread would be hypocritical. I don't even know what Dash is aside from that shit my aunt used to sprinkle on her vegetables. I think everyone here has good intentions.

Organic, I certainly didn't say people didn't have good intentions.

I have never seen a 'butch bonding' thread EVER go anywhere.

I don't understand your dash reference


Yeah, I Watched The Secret Too,
Dylan...will come back to this thread when an acceptable topic of conversation has been agreed upon, because I'm really not up for the, "What should we talk about...no, I don't like that topic...how 'bout? No! Come on, let's just bond!" game that's going on now.

"The Dash Site" in refrence to another site that a lot of the folks here including the owners of this site belong to or did belong to..

I'm not sure where the term "Dash" came from.. *shrugs*

OK, I'm game.. here is a topic..

We were talking a bit about dating "morals" and "ethics".. What do you consider a "cock block", the act of getting in the way of a potintial partner or hook up? Have you done it? Have you seen it done? How do you react? Do you just hate the term's guts and can't be bothered with thinking about it? Is there really even such a thing as "cock blocking", or is just a way to cover up being insecure?

I'm just throwing that one out there because I think that it may be a common ground that we can relate to.. Good bad or indiffrent.

Maybe tell a funny story in relation to?

On a deeper level, I realize how this can be seen as the stereotypical "frat boy" talk, but it doesn't have to be.. It can be what we make it. If the topic is uncalled for by the thread, feel free to ignore it and carry on.. lol.. I just think it could be fun..

-Tony

PS- "cock block" is not a term owned by male ID's in my head.. Kind of like the "cock on the walk" type of thing *shrugs* Just don't want people thinking that I'm just catering to tha boi/ys :)

LOL Dapper- here is your hug. Cyber hugs for all around and if any of you are ever in Portland, Oregon look me up and you can have real life hugs if you want. Yes I do hug butches and open doors for them too, lol.

I have never considered myself to be in any sort of war. I speak up for what I believe in and have butch and trans friends of all gender persuasions. There are plenty of trans guys and male id butches I know who are not the least bit upset with what I say and don't think I am trashing them. I'm good with where I stand.

Best wishes on your butch bonding.

I have real life butch friends to bond with and real life butch femme socials to attend. Pride is this week in Portland and I have 39 more websites to still put up before I really get to work on my 100 plus websites on top of my two jobs.

best wishes to all,

BullDog

p.s. AtLast- you have a heart of gold and what you are trying to do is awesome. I hope you make it back to Portland for a visit soon- and my little French buddy!

I don't think I have ever really been cock blocked I have to think about that a little more. I have totally done it though. lol For her own protection though I wouldn't let anyone hook up with this friend of mine in good conscious. He's a hound dog, goes after anything that gives him attention. She was a nice woman so hopefully I saved her some heartache.

Just going to add to my own post as I really don’t want to over post as the OP. This is everyone’s thread.

But some of the discussion about listening and trust building brought to wounding and just how deep and long-term wounds from other/prior thread - even in a different site- can fester. Seems human to me, really. I have some of these wounds and I know that it can take a long time to process these and get to the other side with them. It really does involve trust; especially online for me.

Some of the more controversial issues might get side stepped until people just feel like they can handle posting anything. And they ,might just have to do their own internal/personal healing or even forgiving processes before taking a chance. I don’t think there is a thing wrong with this.

Hopefully, this thread will take a new direction in the bonding/friendship department. Hope so. But, my guess is that all of us are going to have to walk on tip toes some until we get to a place that our own wounds immediately take over. There is no way I would have even started the thread if I had not tried to put a lot of things in perspective (and certainly not just my own perspectives).

LOL… you bet, I have to tell myself… hey, you don’t know what that person really means, if you don’t ask for clarification. So, shut-up, and try to get them and don’t make a dogging post- from the hip.

I agree there are issues that are deeply rooted that we need to deal with… but I am so into letting people take their own time with things and not jumping to conclusions because of past threads and discussions. Not an easy task!

It might be that the thread dies for a bit and then gets bumped and this could happen off and on just due to how we all need to pace ourselves. I actually believe that the hard stuff will get talked about… in the right time and trust frame…

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

:cigar2:

I think someone else mentioned having confidence or a strong sense of self. I have a very strong sense of self. I am not perfect but I don't hold on to things and if someone tries to make me feel bad or say something snarky because of or about who I am, I chalk it up to them having the problem not me. Then its automatically off of my shoulders and out of my mind. There is a lot less stress in my life because of it. Now if someone is making a valid point about my actions then I will change them or work on changing myself. Otherwise I just go with the flow and if I don't like the flow, I find another flow to hop into.

How do you find your balance in the world? Your center?

I used to watch people as I moved about. I think to see if they looked at me, you know? Waiting for some reaction to my presence in their world.
Now I only look forward and while I feel people watch me, it's empowering to simply move with confidence, like I'm moving in normal speed and the world around me is moving in slow motion.

I'll walk in a women's washroom, grab a stall, wash my hands and shake them, maybe run my damp hands through my hair (if I'm wearing a hat) and then walk out. I'm making more of an effort to take my space in the world. Move about it because it's also mine. Not caring who's looking or even what they're saying.

I was recently walking towards a women's washroom and a guy (waiting for wife and daughter) said to me, 'that's the ladies room'. I ignored him and didn't miss a beat. I feel no need to acknowledge such comments. It's my world also and I'm staking more of a claim to it.

I define Butch. Masculine and feminine. I take what I want from both and add a few ingredients to define me. As I grow into myself, I may or may not adjust the recipe.

BUMP!

:blink:

I don't jive with anyone here as a TG/Transmen. I view things very differently. But I appreciate your intent and hope other folks will benefit.

Yes, it is a very powerful story. I'm glad you posted it up.

Hi,
I just wanted to share with you a terrific documentary called 'Two Spirits'. If you're interested go to: twospirits.org

I was particularly drawn to this because I lived on the Navajo Reservation for awhile.

I invite you to invite others to see the film and open discussions.

**bump**

Because none of us experience life alone and just one way.