I still don't know if this thread is for femmes only, so pardon me if I am out of line

I just find this interesting. Are you saying butches or men are NOT as hypervigilant and protective? I may have missed something, and I totally own that...I'm out of town and reading on my phone.

Here's why I ask...btw, I'm not calling you out...I'm asking seriously...so, here's why I ask.

Mahhh Woman notices looks/stares/whatnot from people that I never even see. She overhears comments and all sorts of shit I have become completely oblivious to over the years. I've heard other butches say the same thing about their partners. I *think* that because I have lived with the stares/comments for so long (as opposed to Mahhh Woman) I just don't notice them anymore (usually).

But one place I *have* noticed a difference between ALL of the femmes/women I've dated (when it comes to hypervigilance/protectionism) is I am very aware of my and Mahhh Woman's (what I call) 'bubble'. I may not notice a stare from 'over there', but you can bet, I know when someone gets in my/our/her bubble, and there will be some sort of measure taken to resolve the situation. Like even if I'm across a room or something, I wkill *know* if someone's in Mahhh Woman's bubble and such. I'm really not explaining this well, but...I have talked to other butches about this, and they *know* what I'm talking about...but when I've talked to femmes about it, they have no clue.

So, I'm truly curious...again not 'calling you out' or anything like that


Dylan

I am NOT saying that butches and/or men are not as hypervigilante and protective. At all. I might venture to say that you all are a tad bit desensitized after years of being hypersensitized though.

Hah. See above.

No I *think* I get what you are saying Dylan and don't think you are calling me out. Let me see if I am reading you right.

You are going to get protective and resolve the situation if you sense danger in you and your womans *bubble* (or personal space so to speak). You are not oblivious to perceived or real threats at all.

Your woman on the other hand might have a larger bubble? Meaning that a look from that cowboy way way over there is going to trigger her spidey senses and her fight or flight mechanisms whereas it's become so second nature to you that it probably doesn't even register until the offender gets within a certain radius?

SuperFemme said: I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

And I agree! This is what comes to mind when I read through the posts to this thread thus far. And honestly, right this minute it's more interesting to me to hear from other femmes here how we alienate each other (other femmes) when one femme puts down the protector sword while another picks it up and actually uses it to poke the other femme in the proverbial eye!

On the other site, a femme started a thread asking for tips and help to prepare for her first dildo experience with a butch. We were happily chatting along when a butch appeared and started making little jokes and sexual innuendo. And I called hym out on it and asked that hy respect the thread, read if hy must, but not post.

Immediately, two other femmes began to describe how the butch that had posted was one of the nicest people on the thread and blah, blah. Avenge the feelings of the butch! Honestly, I was floored that femmes would be willing to sacrifice their sisters to protect a butch's feelings in that type of circumstance.

Interested in others thoughts on that.

I am glad I was not there to witness (read: get banned) this.

It is a shame that everyone is reduced to sex acts while waiting for a butch or trans guy to show up isn't it?

Conversely, I understand that somebody thought that they were joining in on the spirit of the thread, but it IS disheartening.

Thanks and for your note. It would have been fantastic to have the support (not a one of the folks stood up to it with the exception of me...known to push back here for sure).
The title of the thread was directed to Femmes only to assist on the subject, but yes it seems that we femmes most often want to discuss sex acts amongst ourselves and then become quite chatty on a variety of topics once the butches and trans men show up.
Just to say a little more about my experience there (can you tell that it still pisses me off?)
It would have been totally cool with me if the femmes that jumped down my throat would have instead asked the OP if she thought it was ok for butches to join in the discussion, but instead they chose to attack me for questioning the appearance of a butch in a thread that was directed toward femmes.
I went back to the thread just to see how it was going a few days later (read but not post) and all sorts of butches had joined into the fun...mostly describing what femmes should do to make ourselves more comfortable with an early dildo experience.
Honestly, the whole thing was disgusting.

I can’t say that I’ve ever personally witnessed a global (for lack of a better word) insertion of deliberate discord among butches/transguys by femmes or feminine women. What I have witnessed is a kind of dissension taking place amongst butches and transguys surrounding the circumstance at the center of which was a femme. I do not believe the femme was the problem so much as the underlying competition. And I think that competition, being what it is, is a natural impulse centered in our evolutionary instincts. Certainly the conditions of patriarchy make our competitive behaviors quite vicious and self-defeating at times, but as I’ve argued before (to crickets, but wth) patriarchy may well be a condition of the evolutionary impulse.

I’ll provide an example: For me, to use the wrong gender reference for someone is an act of aggression and I will not do it, regardless of my personal feelings about the individual in question. I’m not saying I’ve never done it, but in the years since I started dumping out the knapsack and looking the contents over, I simply refrain. Still, and in spite of the ardent activists I’ve known, I have repeatedly witnessed certain butches/transguys utilize incorrect gender references out of cruelty and in times of frustration.

Back to competition: in spite of the fact that we’re predominantly queer and our partnerings are unlikely to affect population rates toward the surplus, our survival instinct compels us to seek a mate. In every species, this process is the underlying play of its adult groups. And through this process, competition is born. In fact, it’s necessary. We might have the iPhone 4.0 and quantum computing and Bill Maher and personal politics and Julie Marie Wade but we are stupid to think that 2.5 million years of evolution* doesn’t daily inform our interactions with one another (even when we think we’re being smooth). Now I think that for the most part, our evolution has moved away from the domain of the body and into the domain of the brain (at least I’m hopeful), and so maybe it’s true that our choices affect our future. Like, if you refuse to participate in the personal shit storm, you’re doing your own small part to evolve the race.

*just since Homo

PrettyWoman? I am sorry that you had that experience. I have no idea how a butch and speak to a Femme strapping for the first time. Rather, I have no idea how ANYONE can speak to it. It is such a vastly personal experience.

Maybe we should start a thread here in the Femme Zone about it and see what happens? I would hope it could be a different experience?

e are you saying butches and transguys are the ones perpetuating this issue?

I am getting caught up with the word competition...

<scratching head like a monkey>

I am a lil confused

Actually, yes. Except not consciously, which is important to remember. It occurs in the same way that a good deal of the tension among feminine women (like-among-like) is about underlying competition. It's a theory of evolution, anyway.

And again, it's exacerbated by the conditions of patriarchy, which are quite negative (obviously) and not conducive to the more positive features of informal in-group dynamics (team building, support systems, community-building, etc.).

ETA: Obviously, the same tensions occur among populations of queers for which gender variations/presentations are not so obvious, e.g. gay men and uniformly lesbian women. Competition among and within a group for which attraction and mating is also widely characterized is not as easily parsed.

I get it and I don't. Here is why.

I am not competitive when it comes to partnering up. I am good on my own, I don't have issues getting some or dating. So for *me* that head space does not exist.

I can see how it can play in to all this.

I also have to disagree that it is a butch transguy issue, and this is just my opinion.

We have the power to stop it if we want, or to watch the chest bumping when it comes down to us as future *mates*

So yeah I don't get it and I do cause I don't roll that way.

i think the fact that people hook up out of a community adds dynamics to it that can lead to drama, but that is not necessarily because of competition for resources. It's the added energy. Even the sweet and healthy posturing for attention can get to me at times, but that's my problem. This is a place where people hunt. i don't hunt here, or i haven't. But friends of mine do. And i think that's great. But, yes, it does change the nature of the exchanges.

In r/t butch-femme and (for me) lesbian communities, i see some of that. i have walked up to talk to a butch and seen the femme clutch her partner's arm. But that's not something that i think colors the entire community.

Is the sexual energy strong in our community? Yes. That's one thing i like about it. Does competition for mates cause a lot of the drama? i don't think so.

I am not sure what creates so much drama. Some of it here, i believe, is the medium -- the internet. Also we are a diverse group, and a few people want to feel more "at home" here or in r/t butch-femme than it turns out is always possible. i think that leads to frustrations and disappointments. And there is the normal drama of break-ups, etc.

Because i do not hunt here or even in r/t butch-femme (i hunt in the leather community), i do not encounter much femme jealousy. Some. It always shocks me, and there seems to be no way to defend yourself against it. But those folks are sad. They can't be having the best time. And most of the b-f community members i meet in the world are having a really good time. That's another thing i like about us.

Also, whatever behaviors people exhibit, unless they lead to greater reproductive success, they are not affecting evolution. It might affect how we all live our lives and what we teach our children -- our culture(s) -- but they are not affecting biological evolution.

Actually, it was your post, June, about not feeling responsible for the tensions among butches and transmen that inspired my thoughts. I don't feel responsible for those tensions either, and I don't think that any femme should, except when she has deliberately participated in a kind of negative in-group behavior that spurs intolerance and dissension. Perhaps we've all been party to this kind of thing at one time or another. Still, I think the basis - the foundational cause - for most intergroup tensions is competition and that it does have an evolutionary source. Like I mentioned, even though we are unlikely to add to the surplus in population, it is a benefit to our survival to mate, and ironically, to find and build community.

Snow, even while some of us overcome our more basic (and base) instincts (and I hear what you're saying definitely) some of the time, others have to consciously work to continue to do so (provided they ever select to do so). Not everyone has a competitive nature, sure, and not all people are given to behaving in ways that are derisive, but most people enact these behaviors at some point, and the larger question becomes not just one of the personality clash, or an inability to sort differences, but whether there is a deeper motivation for this need for establishing groups and even hierarchies.

I just happen to think there is.

It seems (and I could be misreading you) that your definition for evolution is that unless we are reproducing well (i.e., continuously and more?), we are not achieving the basis for a standard of evolution. My working definition is a framework that is larger than merely the propagation of the species -which I read only to be a continuation of the race - but an increase in the capacity of the human to function and to prosper, even if at reduced numbers. I'm unconcerned at this stage with biological evolution (although I think it would benefit the race to be done with wisdom teeth altogether). I agree that how we live our lives, what we teach our children, and questions of culture, are quite important to evolution.

Still, most of us scream and leap into a chair at the sight of a spider, and hardly ever at the sight of a moving automobile, which is much, much more likely to kill us. I hardly think we can intellectually do away with the evolutionary drives (like the competition for a mate) just because we find them unpalatable, or simply exhausting to think about.

Thank you June for going into more detail!!!

ms e I still do not agree and I am ok with it as I am sure you are. that for you it is not a femme influence that adds tar to the mixture. We can be catty, divisive, mean and dismissive towards each other especially when hurt or rejected. I know this is not exclusive to just femme, *I* chose to open it up for us femme's to talk about so that Atllasthome's thread could continue in friendship building.

Let's be honest, we have a tendency to disrupt threads with the whole in that sweet magnolia voice saying

"I love you guys and I think you are all great"

giggle wink wink tee hee

and yes I also know that butches do it to femme's but my intent was for us (femmes) to be transparent and open about our shit.

I thought the convo could be had maybe it can maybe we can't.

I hope I am making sense. I am not as evolved in language like most of you are and I thank you for your patience.

Gotcha!

So therefore what I have learned is this.

I should of worded it like Metropolis did...

I don't think it's all competition. I think sometimes its empathy. And then there are a lot of people who want to side with the "winning team" and those who will always side with the "underdog" on an issue. And then, as stated far earlier, I have put my foot in it most when I'm feeling protective of somebody else because I perceive them as being ganged up on. It's very hard for me not to jump in there and get my hands dirty if I think somebody else is being unnecessarily hurt, but it just backfires, you know?

It's hard for me not to "cheerlead" for the underdog because it's so second-nature to me, but I have to not take sides. Or to take the femme side if I'm gonna take sides.

And from the femme side, I really thought it was great what Pretty Woman said about the stuff femmes perpetuate on other femmes. I especially feel this happens during discussions about butches and/or transguys to the point where the femmes on both sides drown out the actual people a situation is affecting directly. (I am guilty of participating in this)

Sometimes it feels like the pronoun issue (for example) really pits femme against femme because femmes come in to protect whomever from the evils of wrong pronoun choice and it seems like we can't even hear each other about our own varying perspectives as femmes without seeking to attack other femmes that aren't on board with our viewpoints.

I read what you were saying here and immediately began to look for explanations in terms of the social sciences. Recently, in a tough conversation I was having with my best friend, she told me that I tend too often to intellectualize what isn't and asked me if this isn't a coping mechanism for something. (I've actually been accused of the intellectualizing thing a few times before, so I had to stop and consider her words seriously.) It may be that I'm distancing from emotions, but I know that I just happen to think in this way, so if you'll bear with me (or not):

Anyway, I'm rather a fan of the sciences, and the social sciences especially. I think that even if there is a reason for a behavior on an individual/personal level, there is a fairly large degree of possibility that it is correlating to another level of "cause." In other words, human action can be seen in quadrants of behavior from the independent, intentional level to the behavioral to the cultural and collective, and sometimes an action may unite on all levels, even while the individual conceives of themselves acting out of independent intention.

I guess if we're talking about what behaviors are counter productive, but which we see happening often, it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons.

Hi Pretty Woman :rrose:

I was actually one of the femmes participating in that thread and remember that exchange well. For me, this is a classic example of how our different viewpoints impact what we read and how we read it.

While the butch's remarks were rather juvenile (and arguably insensitive), I certainly didn't read them as sexual in nature. If I remember it correctly, it was along the lines of "peeking in and just gonna sit quietly over here --->> ".

Your response to him read as incredibly harsh (to me). I remember thinking "oh good grief" when he posted....and "oh holy hell" when you did. To his credit, he immediately apologized. And no, I was not one of the femmes who posted to defend him, because I felt that he was perfectly capable of explaining, apologizing and exiting all on his own. When it all blew up, he apologized several times. To me, he made a mistake and he aplogized for it.

No, I don't think he needed femmes to defend him. But I also think it's possible that the harshness of your correction to him made some of those who care about him upset. He is a genuinely nice and caring person, and I think some of those who know that were offended.

I don't think that was a case of femmes attacking other femmes to defend a butch's feelings. I think that was a case of friends feeling like a friend had been unfairly browbeaten for an innocent mistake.

I agree with you though, that the thread quickly deteriorated after that. It was really a place for femmes to discuss a very sensitive and personal subject, and it turned into a mess.

I am not at all in disagreement with your looking at these things from this perspective - I actually tend to get really excited when people start talking the way you're talking. I guess I think of human beings as pack animals like other primates. I don't know nearly enough about primate pack behavior, but I do think different people have different roles and functions within the given pack. Though I am not wholly satisfied with the ennagram, it's one of those systems I think about a lot when it comes to how humans relate and why. I do think there are kind of built-in pack behaviors that fall somewhere between "we all act this way for the exact same reason" and "we are all special individualist snowflakes acting for reasons entirely unique to ourselves."

Hmm I think I misread this statement: "it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons"

I read it as looking for the each root for each of the reasons, but now I think you are saying there is one root to all the reasons?

Maybe that root *is* competition - I definitely can't say you're wrong.

Going back to what I was saying about primate pack behavior -

I think pack behavior is a combination of herd behavior and hunting behavior. Herds (and schools of fish even) survive by rejecting the members that are different or hurt and by always trying to stay close to the center so they won't be picked off. (I'm not a scientist here, maybe I'm missing some steps).

Group-hunting requires more different roles within a group. You have to have the caretakers, you have the observant types, the aggressive types, the peacemaking types, the strong group-cohesion types, the industrious, the inventive, the single-minded, the balanced-minded, the perfectionists, and the people to say, "that's not going to work!", etc. Any one of those types can exhibit a behavior and it can be for a reason more specific to their type.

Empathy itself is not something universally experienced (from what I understand) but reactions to feelings of empathy are also various. Some people just want to get away from whatever is causing them to have an uncomfortable feeling, others attack, others seek to comfort, etc.

I don't know if I have a real working theory here, but I agree with you that for the most part we are as humans coded by evolution to create progeny and ensure that progeny's survival, so even though most of us in this community don't create progeny, I definitely think it makes sense that we are encoded as humans.

Where I feel like you and I might differ is what the very rootiest root part is to all those various behaviors. It very well may be competition, but I rub up against the need for group cohesion and the advantage of multiple roles and cooperation very quickly when I try to go down that route. If we were only competitive, wouldn't we have just killed each other off by now? Heh. I guess maybe there's a real competition between Hobbes' "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" idea of every person for theirself (pronoun ugh) and the idea that pack and social cooperation and cohesion are so innate to the species.

Hey - my googlefu tells me Hobbes at least gave 3 reasons for human conflict:

competition, diffidence and glory. The first maketh men invade for gain; the second, for safety; and the third, for reputation.

If I had to choose one of those reasons as the rootiest one, I might go first with safety. But it might competition is nice and would suffice. :)

I don't know if I've said anything at all here that makes sense, but I have this uncontrollable impulse to hit "Submit Reply" and get out of the quicksand I find myself in. ;)

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

I know what you're saying...and I totally agree with you. That shit drives me batty too.

To be clear, from my ME place...I don't have a problem with my partners talking to, flirting with, hamming it up with, whatevring with anyone else. I don't have a problem with people coming over to talk to my partners. That would be gross.

If my partner is done talking to you...I expect you to go away. If she has to tell you twice, I'm gonna have a problem. You'll get a third strike, and then ima say something.

And what I've noticed...and what drives me crazy is femmes (usually) have to repeat themselves a few times...but I only have to say something once. The first time is (usually) ignored. The second time a femme says something, she's (usually) giggled at or mocked or patted on the head. And yet, I only have to say something once. And this has happened with a number of femmes I've known who have been partners OR just friends. It happens with men and straight (or queer) women also.

I could give some examples if need be, but I'm definitely not talking about being a possessive freak. I'm talking about the way femme's boundaries are often trampled on (even if they're the loudest mouthed, toughest, alpha-y femme in the world...which most of my femme friends/partners tend to be), and they get patted on the head for being 'so cute' when they stick up for themselves.


Hope I'm Somewhat More Clear,
Dylan

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

I kind of think it sort of ties into the beginning of this thread cuz I think it affects how conversations go between butches and then men of the site, because it does change dynamics of conversations, and I think it leads to the 'save the femmes' placating that tends to happen in conversations...and then the slew of 'you are all so wonderful' fawning invasions that happen from both femmes and butches

"See this is why I love alllllllllllllll butches, cuz..."

"And that's why we love allllllllllllll femmes...cuz they just get us blah blah gag"



Dylan

This made me think about how I have had at least one femme friend begin to refer (within the context of ranting about her ex) to that individual by his biological feminine name in discussing him with me, while during the relationship she referred to him by his masculine name of choice. At the time I didn't call her out on it because I gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps she wanted to refer to him with more formality and distance. But now reading this thread and reflecting on some of the issues, it becomes more clear to me that this kind of dissing really is always on some level about disrespecting gender presentation, and I don't want to participate in tolerating it, no matter if a friend is angry and ranting or not. This kind of deep disregard for someone's identity is never okay.

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

Just a thought, but perhaps, if you were to build friendships, you'd come to discover that you have a lot more in common with others than you think you do?

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares ;)

I don't remember saying bubble invaders were any gender.

Also, I'm not just talking about someone 'standing too close to you at the grocery store' which is how I'm interpretting your interpretation of my words.


Dylan

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here! :readfineprint:

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...




Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving :|

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.





See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

Hence why I made the post about Metropolis community thread, I chose the wrong wording, my intent wasn't clear, and the space I put this in.

I should of thought it thoroughly.

Though I do have to at this point, this far into the thread, it's an everyone voice and it's been working, or we can have Linus yet again put it elsewhere so everyone is happy.

I for one, am signing out for the day I have bigger issues.

Snow,

I wasn't saying you were priviliged. No, I apologize if it seemed that way!

I am sorry you are dealing with so much, so I'll keep this short, as you are in our thoughts, as is Super Femme.

Thanks for responding, truly.