Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't support ANY business that hired ANYBODY who had a criminal record. I'm saying that this man - in what I have seen of HIS public statements, does not yet "get it". He doesn't get that animals are beings that have every right to a peaceful existance, without suffering beyond words at the hands of people like him and his cohorts.

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes. I don't use the same paint brush for everyone - I don't boycott every man who has a criminal record. But I'd be willing to make an exception for the likes of Mr. Vick.

Suebee, unfortunately there are quite a few football players playing in the NFL today who have beaten up their wives, girlfriends, or women they have met somewhere. Some have been suspended by the league for certain periods of time and some have not.

But then we'd have to have the discussion about how Fame/Professional Sports/The Music Industry supports behavior in men that it would never support in women (and then inherent ingrained sexism as the root of it all):hangloose:

Hey Gang, you people are really rocking in here. Maybe tonight or over the holiday I can get time to come and read everyone's contributions and opinions. Hope so. I have not had much time to be online lately.

Lunch hours go by too quickly ... back to work now and you later.


:byebye:

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.

We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

Posting this while I have a pit asleep on my feet.
 

The system gives children back to abusive parents or households back, I have to ask why an animal has priority over our countries kids. You can see a child be slapped at a Target- that happens at Pet Smart the cops are called & your dog is taken away.

I pray he changed but this witch hunt on a black man and now death is wished upon him is just as gross if not even MORE gross than what he's done.


Why?

It's been done in this country since it's start.

Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.

For fucking real.

I can get behind this thought process to a large degree!

I agree that there is a somewhat pervasive "right now" groove to animal rights, PETA, The Trevor Project, Barefoot running shoes, etc. among young hipster-type Queers. The thinking that to "be" the right kind of Queer or to attract the "right" kind of Queer, that those things are prerequisite.

I used to have a friend who viewed herself as a staunch animal rights advocate and who was vegetarian but wore leather shoes every day, owned a ton of leather furniture, had a purebred dog that she bought from a puppy mill, and loved going to the zoo.

It seemed like she was an animal advocate only to the degree that it wouldn't affect her tastes, comfort, or entertainment value.

This isn't an either/or issue, but rather multi-layered. I see some intersections of race and class with Eurocentric idealization of pet animals. Interesting discussion to say the least. :rubberducky:

I think it's a multi-layered discussion too, that's why I don't see why I am supposed to go start a separate thread.

The fact that the Vick thing got tonnes of media attention and the other crimes of NFL players didn't is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anyway! You kids have fun! I gotta get offline because I'm ignoring my spouse and playing on BFP which is impolite of me.

Bingo!

I didn't see lots of uproar over Ben Roethlisberger (except people were bummed he was going to miss 6 games- which got cut down to 4 games for "good behavior").

[QUOTE=betenoire;255473]Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.
QUOTE]


I don't know that we're more important than animals. I know we're more important to US than animals are. And I mean that seriously. (but that's a whole 'nother discussion) My point is that a man who systematically abused women to the extent that Vick and others have and continue to systematically abuse animals would not so easily slip back into the stature of hero. This is NOT a man who kicked his dog because it peed on the carpet! As if his actions weren't horrendous enough, he's done this to HUNDREDS of animals! Isn't that serious enough?

I get that Suebee...and I'm not trying to pick on you by any means. I totally agree that what Vick did was barbaric, and criminal, and should be punished.

I've got a couple things going on in my head about this thread though....

First, Vick was convicted and punished. We may or may not agree with the judge's decision...but that's a separate issue. I do believe that once people have served their sentence, then they need to be given an opportunity to rebuild their lives and not be stigmatized forever.

Second, I tend to stay out of race discussions here because...as a white person...I get that I don't get the reality of what it's like to be a person of color in our (or any) society. However, I totally get that we lock up POC in this society at a disgusting rate....and that white (men usually) who are convicted of far worse acts get a slap on the wrist or a fine. So, our tendency to label ex-convicts as somehow "less than" the rest of us impacts POC far more than it does whites as a group.

Third, I do love animals....and I have a houseful of them at any given time. However, I've also been involved in the raising of animals for food most of my life....having lived and worked on a dairy, raised beef cattle (in Australia not the US), had an ex who worked in a slaughterhouse, etc. I truly think we need to extend our protection and humane treatment to all animals....and think that dogs get an inordinate amount of our attention while cattle and poultry and pigs are treated in a pretty horrific manner. (And, no, I'm not vegetarian or vegan and don't object to raising and slaughtering animals for food....but do believe that we can be at least humane in the process).

And fourth, I'm with Snow. I put children before animals...every time. I'm astounded at a culture that defends animals and ignores the needs of children (and we do).

Certainly, that is freedom of expression but your expression, in this instance, actually demonstrates my point. I don't think that the uproar is about Mr. Vick being back in the NFL, I think it is Mr. Vick being *employed* full stop! I think that the only *possible* job that Mr. Vick could take that would not generate howls of protest is if he were to have to walk across a mine field and find--and detonate by stepping on one--buried mines. PERHAPS that might not generate a hue and cry but anything short of a job where his death was certain, I doubt would be acceptable.

I am, as I've said before, not defending Mr. Vick because I don't defend criminals who have been convicted. I am, however, interested in this situation as a cultural situation because--and I was talking with my nephew about this yesterday--I think that if it were a white man, the general societal consensus would be 'he did the crime, he did the time, let the man get his life back'. I think that part of why so many people are just SO intense that he shouldn't be able to lead something remotely resembling a normal life is the *same* social psychology that says that if a black man breaks into a home and kills a white family his life is forfeit and the only question is whether he is electrocuted or shot up with drugs while if a white man breaks into a home and kills a black family he's looking at the life behind bars with a possibility of parole in 15 or 20 years. I am NOT saying that this is your motivation nor am I saying that anyone here is consciously working off that idea. However, there is a psychology behind the legal reality I just described and that psychology is pre-existing to ANY courtroom experience of a lawyer, judge or juror.

It is simply the case that in the United States of America, the general gestalt is to view the actions of a black man more harshly than the actions of a white man. If, for instance, Mr. Obama were a white man people would be making comparisons with Washington at this point but he's not and so he's been written off as a failed President while Mr. Bush--who was, in fact, actually a real and true disaster for this nation--will be rehabilitated into an Eisenhower-esque figure long before I die of old age.

Cheers
Aj

Absolutely...and I think the blind eye that our society and media turn when powerful, successful, rich, celebrity, *fill in the blank* men abuse women is revolting.....and frequent.

Oh good grief. :|

I don't even know how to respond to that.

I guess it's easier to put your name on a list and "raise awareness" than to actually demonstrate commitment through action.

It is our jobs as parents, mentors, aunts, uncles etc. To BECOME the role models and heros. Vick is NOT my hero nor my kids, high prilofile folks should not be who we EXPECT to be this. That's on us.

AMEN!
..........................Amen

AJ brings up a great point.

The average black man's life is much more automatically expendable than the average white man's in lots of (if not all) scenarios.

Bernie Madoff comes to mind. Here is a man who bilked a crapload of people out of Billions of dollars - He's in prison. Although his crime wasn't necessarily a violent one, I think of all the people who were close to suicide because of what he did.

How about Dick Cheney, who shot his friend during a hunting "accident". Was he ever punished for that?

What about Phil Spector? How many people did he kill before his butt was finally sent to prison?

Don't even get me started on the war crimes of George W. Bush.

See, I don't get that he's a hero. A hero, to me, is someone TRULY extraordinary. All of the players of the NFL are talented, lucky and wealthy but that does not make him a hero. A hero is, to my way of thinking, someone who either does something so singularly superlative as to inspire awe or someone who is able to keep their head and perform their function under extreme circumstances. For the former, I think of a figure like Einstein or, even more poignantly, Rosalind Franklin or Alan Turing.* For the latter think of the airline pilot, Capt. Sullenberger. His plane has lost its engines, he's over a major metropolitan area, there are 150 some other people whose lives are, quite literally, in his hands, he can see an alternate airport in Jersey. A lesser pilot might have tried to make it to Jersey, do a one-take approach and probably would have crashed. Capt. Sullenberger calmly (and the zen-like calm is what I admired) tells the area ATC that he's going to put the plane down in the Hudson River and does so. THAT is a hero. People who run into burning buildings when everyone is running the other way are heroes. Most pilots aren't heroes in the same way that most scientists aren't heroes.

To me sports figures aren't heroes, they are people who are paid truly obscene amounts of money to play sports. That's it. So to me, Mr. Vick returning to the NFL is the same as him returning to, say, some cubical farm as a system admin.

I think that we, as a culture, would be well-served thinking about what a hero is, what a role model is and what qualities we think are worthy of emulation. Most of my heroes or role models were deeply flawed people who managed to obtain a level of virtuosity in their chosen field and I admire them because of their commitment to excellence in that field and the power of their intellect. So that might explain why I am rather ho-hum on the prospect of Mr. Vick returning to the NFL--I don't see him as a hero or a role-model. He's a guy who has a job where he makes riches beyond the dreams of avarice and not much more.


*Franklin was an X-ray crystallographer whose work was what Watson and Crick used in their work on the structure of DNA, Turing was a mathematician and brilliant cryptographer who broke the German ENIGMA code which was crucial for helping the Allies win WW II and particularly helped Britain in surviving the Blitz. Franklin died of, I believe, breast cancer the year *before* Watson and Crick won the Nobel and Turing killed himself after the War as he languished in prison on charges of homosexuality).

I agree with you Aj about what constitutes a hero, but I venture to guess that suebee is right...and that most teenagers in the US know who Vick is, but have no clue about those you named.

I cringe that the "celebrities" I see teens emulating are (to my thinking) overpaid, arrogant, narcissists who contribute nothing of real value to our society.

First... as a member of the vegan brigade I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of my fellow vegans are straight. And there's a good number of men in the mix too. It's in the spotlight now not because it's hip... cause it's still not. But because animal welfare and factory farming is in the spotlight and that makes it much easier to draw the conclusions that eating meat is neither necessary nor sustainable for our planet. Being vegan is still so uncool that many people who go vegan are ridiculed for their choices, are screwed with by cooks and servers, are left off party invitations because hosts feel at a loss for what to serve (even when we're happy to bring something) or aren't invited out for meals as often because people freak out about where to go.

But what REALLY upsets me about your post is that you fail to see the reason why there's a need for animal advocates which is distinct and different from anti-violence advocates:

Humans have the ability to communicate atrocities, specific and en masse, which animals lack.

I've yet to meet a vegan who doesn't feel passionately about the welfare of all beings. We just feel it's important that we act as a proxy voice for animals, who have none.

Medusa, I feel strongly that you've either missed something in your own argument or I have and in further readings, maybe I'm just confused and are actually saying something I agree with.

You agree with what's being said that veg*nism is en vogue and seem to be dissing people who have chosen not only to talk the talk, but the walk the walk of eschewing all animal products and then follow it up with an example where you diss someone who claimed to be an animal advocate but missed the fact that she continued to use animal products regularly.

Again, humans can consent. Animals cannot, nor are they afforded the option to.

I think Vick has been demonized to a greater extent because of the color of his skin and I think he's been forgiven to a great deal because of his prowess on the football field. He's lauded by some as a hero because he's both male and an athlete. All of these things bring intersection from class, race, privilege and money.

Had he (and who knows if he does/doesn't or has/hasn't) raped or abused women... those women had the physical capability to tell someone else, a friend, the authorities, the news. Whether they felt strong enough to do so or not is another issue.

The dogs that Vick abused had to rely on a human being (an advocate) to do the right thing. To realize that what Vick did was heinous and report it.

I've stepped in front of man with a knife who was beating his girlfriend senseless. I still can't hear out of one ear as a result of that. I call the cops when I hear screams. I've even run out of the house (like a moron) when I hear gun shots. All because I give a shit about my fellow humans.

I've also stopped in the middle of a busy intersection during a nor'easter to shepherd a lost dog safely back to his owner. I've jumped into a lake in order to save a cat who was FREAKING out. I've put out food and water for innumerable neighborhood cats and I've even rescued a "stray" rooster in Chicago.

I don't make distinctions about whether another living being deserves my compassion or not. I know they do and all I need to know is that I have the capability to help.

I make no representations that I am better than anyone else. We all make our choices. I wish that everyone would reduce their dependence on animal products. I wish that everyone would at least educate themselves about factory farming. My decision to be vegan wasn't based on it's coolness factor, it was based around living a more purposeful and aware life where my decisions about what to put in my body and what products to use match my stated/voiced ethos. I'm still imperfect in my veganism. I slipped up just about two weeks ago and forgot that pork came in a dish I ordered. I still own some leather shoes. Is it sensible to throw them out or to wear them until they are unusable? I'll probably split the difference and donate them this year as I move further and further toward my vegan ideal.

/soapbox

And if I didn't have to run off to a lunch date I would be opening a new thread on animal welfare/veganism so I can stop derailing this one. Maybe tonight.

I'm familiar with Terry Fox. I'm not sure I'd say hero there either, in the classi sense of the word. Extraordinary human? Certainly. Humanitarian? You bet. But I'm not sure that he did anything "heroic".

Then again I have a short list of "personal heroes" which includes Aimee Mullins because of the work that she's done to change the assumption that being differently abled means that you give up on beauty. If you haven't seen her TED talks, I encourage you to do so. They are amazing, as is she. So I think "hero" means different things to different people.

Okay, no, really... I gotta shower and get going.