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All of my support has come from the lesbian community. And that is it. Perhaps it helped that I had very strong ties in the lesbian community and they were very accepting of my husband (though I've seen what happens when I take him to lesbian events where his ID is not known, he gets frozen out). The least acceptance I have experienced is from non-lesbian women who are dating/have dated transmen. From them I have experienced everything from a refusal to understand that my lesbian identity is something to mourn, to a strongly held opinion that my lesbian identity is somehow disrespectful to my partner. I really don't understand why this is, though perhaps it is that having an ID which already involves men, they really can't relate.* A bit of empathy would be nice. *which seems fairly obvious now |
I realize this thread is focused on "Loving a Transman" in a romantic way. I do want to point out that we can love a Transman in an unromantic sexual way and this friendship love may still require a friend to go on a journey of sorts with their Transman friend.
I am a Transman. (Do not assume because I say I am a Transman that I think I am some sort of mistake or I believe myself to be the same as a cisman.) Back to loving a Transman. I have friends, that are Transmen and I care about them deeply. Because I am part of their circle, the people they share their authentic life with, I also am expected on some level to respect their choices. If I cannot respect their choices, do I leave their life? Maybe, maybe not. I have a very strong Queer identity. I go into a closet for no one. Not even myself. For me I cannot be in the closet, stealth. Does this make be a better person? IMO, No. It is my choice to be out. Now, I also have Transmen in my life that I care about and love as a fellow human being. It can and has challenged our friendship. I can and will respect their choice to be in the closet and or to leave their Queer identity, allegience behind. (Not all Transmen make that choice, some do.) I find I still can love this guy and support him but our friendship may be tried. I will hold my tongue and not speak freely if we are with his straight friends that are not privy to the truth of his past life. It is also my choice to decide do I stay in my friend's life or not. As they also choose do they keep a person such as me in their life. That's it. |
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He wanted to sever all ties with the LGBT3Q2I community as if he didn't have his birth defect all those years and he expected...nay, demanded...that I follow suit. First of all, you damn well don't DEMAND I follow in your footsteps like that and certainly not about anything that's so life changing. Secondly, you don't get to decide how the rest of anyone else's like plays out except yours. Third, no matter how I identify...and it's changed over the years...I will always be a part of this community. Luckily for Ebon, he knows and respects this. Quote:
When I first came out, I hung out at the only gay bar in the little redneck county I lived in. It had an awesome but small drag show and there was always a bevy of beautiful queens and MtF performers there. I learned their lingo and they often used 'tranny' to describe themselves and one another in jest and complete seriousness and it was a perfectly acceptable term. Maybe it was because there were a lot of gay men there and gay men are very influential. Maybe it was because that's the only terms they knew. Maybe it's because that's what they felt best suited them at that time. I'm not sure. All I knew was that that was another word to add to my expanding vocabulary. It was only when I came onto sites like this did I realize that others did not share that same or similar experience with the word. Before I realized how offensive it was to some, I felt it was like dyke...a word that could be used against our community by those outside of it for the purposes of hurting or shaming us, but that we could take it back and empower ourselves with it. Not so much, I guess. But part of what makes our community so unique is our diversity and, with that, comes differences in all aspects of our lives. Quote:
Being the partner of a transitioning person can be another coming out....or pushing in, as the case may be. A rebirth of sorts, but one we have little to no control over. For control freaks like me, it can be a scary ass thing. I remember sitting in my apartment and just curling up and crying when I was supposed to be on my way to see him. We lived about an hour and a half apart and saw each other on the weekends and odd days off during the week. I literally felt as if all my emotions had taken flight and were swirling around me, like a tornado funnel. I felt as if everything I knew was also in that funnel, just flying around me. Close enough to reach out and touch but I couldn't grasp any of it firmly. It felt like the emotional version of vertigo, like when you stand up too quickly and that momentary spacey swirly feeling, except it didn't go away after a second. It didn't stop. Not until the relationship ended. In the end, he was demanding things of me that he had no right to demand and I was too naive to know that. I felt that I was doing it wrong. I was not playing the right role in our relationship and that was somehow hurting him. I felt that I was secondary to what was happening to him and that I was a bad girlfriend for speaking in any way that could be determined to be or twisted to be negative. I felt sad. Depressed. Unworthy. Incompetent. I had given up a wonderful man when I came out. I was married to the sweetest guy and I broke his heart into a million pieces. I had built my life back up from nothing, because I took very little with me due to the shame I felt at hurting my husband. So, I had come from that mindset and I'd dated some and I was beginning to feel as if I had made the right decision and that things were going well. And then I met him. And then I was nothing. Walking away from that relationship hurt and I left a lot of myself on the floor. It really pisses me off when folks try to shame those who leave. We all leave. The butch leaves when the Transguy develops. Sometimes, the femme leaves when the butch leaves and sometimes the femme leaves when the Transguy makes his appearance. We. All. Leave. Sometimes it *is* one person's fault. Most of the time, in these relationships that don't work out, it's no one's *fault*. It just is what it is. Ebon and I have had 'leaving' discussions and have talked about all the 'if then' situations we could think of. We know that he will change as he delves deeper into his transition and, thus, I will change. But, Hell. Everyone changes. Change is the ONLY thing that is guaranteed. With medical advances and the slickness of tax evasion nowadays, death and taxes aren't always a guarantee anymore. Maybe we'll mesh more and have a stronger relationship. Maybe we'll drift apart. The one thing I am certain of is that we'll always be a part of one another's lives, no matter the capacity. |
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This is hard to tolerate. |
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I have not spent a lot of time with straight partners of transmen. Most of my experience is in the queer community and I did not have a strong lesbian identity at all. My partner is my first and only. I am sure this contributes greatly to my feeling out of place. My partner is out in all areas of his
life so the queer community is where we feel comfortable although not always welcome. I don't look for support on the straight community at all but the transphobia I experience there is more ignorance. I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person. I do find places where we are welcome and fit in so this is less of a problem now. I do feel grateful that my partner is not stealth. That would be pretty hard for me. Quote:
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What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass. Quote:
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And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other. Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend. Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense. |
Wow that is awful. I have not experienced that in my partner group. No one has ever said that I or anyone else was transphobic. I actually have never had anyone tell me I am transphobic. It is more an internal policing of myself. I have said stupid stuff and had it brought to my attention but always in a kind way. We had many hair discussions in my group! I never felt like it was a competition to be the best supportive girlfriend. it felt like this was the one safe space where I could speak freely and not worry about hurting someone.
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First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.
Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space. Respectfully, Drew P.S. You all can flame me now. |
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Well, the way I see it, the partners here - who are so seldomly supported as they transition with their FTM partners - might benefit from seeing that there are transmen who do realize that there's a serious communication wall. I would be the first to leave if it were made clear that our input wasn't wanted here - but I feel it speaks to the fact that some of us have grown to realize that we've been ignorant in the past to our partners transition. I didn't come in here to interrupt the conversation or take it over, but to say, this is a serious issue that I've been guilty of contributing to, but have learned to listen to. When a lot of these women are accused of being transphobic for having issues with their partner's transition, I think it helps to have transguys step up and have their backs. That's all.
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i liked the article. While she should not have used that phrase, i don't like dismissing the article for that reason or making the discussion all about that.
What she was referring to is the cheerleading that goes on -- and the expectation of it. i think that someone struggling with a partner or family member's changes should not be burdened with expectations that they have to respond positively or else be considered a bad partner or family member. They get to feel what they feel. In public, in a newspaper, yes, i would expect people to choose their words more wisely. But i get resenting the folks who expect one to only have positive feelings or feel guilty if not. A lot of that used to go on. |
My thoughts
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Zones
Femmes are just as guilty of stepping into butch trans zones alllllll the time I'm not sure why at this point anyone is being asked to take a backseat because of people aren't agreeing. Would we say that to ftm/butches/nonfemnes if they chose to participate? Femmes aren't the only ones who love transmen..
No one is dismissing the article her use of verbiage deems her less credible "to me", taking a back seat to hurtful verbiage shouldn't be expected regardless of what zone we're in... I wouldn't like it if someone threw racist verbiage to describe their relationship I would hope that just because it's an article or in some zone that it wouldn't get looked over... |
I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.
That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID. Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed? This would be a good poll, I think. |
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Was not impressed. |
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All are welcome, but please remember that this IS in the femme zone. The topic is how partners of transpeople might be conflicted or feel less than positive about their partners transition. I read it as, please participate but don't make it all about the trans experience from the trans side of it.. |
We need to hear from lettertodaddy
The OP did not state whether it is open for FTMs/transguys/others to post. I think that is typically the way we determine if others identities are welcome to post in a particular zone. I think that lettertodaddy needs to come back to say what is her preference. My guess is that she doesn't really have an investment in who posts in this thread, but it would be helpful if she came back and stated it clearly <waving to lettertodaddy>
For ME the way I approach threads that do not state the above is to tread lightly until I see how (in this case) femmes respond to other genders/identifiers posting. If it seems cool (which it has in this thread), then I may post. However, I still tend to feel like I need to "take a backseat" to the gender's/identifier's (in this case femmes) that the thread is in (and it does seem to ME that overall that is happening here...meaning the thread isn't being "taken over" by those who do not identify as femme). ETA: My second paragarph is similar to what Random posted. I wrote my post prior to reading her post, but that covers mostly what I meant. Quote:
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There are 102 replies to this thread 34 by butches and transmen the rest ate femme or women. That's hardly a take over. I still feel it's ok that some people have come into say that hurtful verbiage is not ok to just skip over. It's not something some people are willing to sweep under the rug, I can express my feelings all I want about the men in my life but certainly not in ugly words & derogatory slurs.
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The OP does NOT clarify if butches/guys/bois/boys/ can or can't give imput in the convo nor has she till this point. Now have there been differences in opinions yes, have people pointed out verbiage yes. 105 posts later and 34 posts are made by non femmes and have been done so in a conducive manner. |
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It happens from all sides. The support group I was banned from started out being just for non-trans partners. Then some of the trans partners felt excluded, like they weren't allowed in the group because there was something "wrong" with them. Well, no, they weren't allowed because the group wasn't for them. But they put up a stink, and no one wanted to be called transphobic, so they were allowed into the group with the caveat that they were just there to observe and the group was still a safe space for partners to talk about their feelings. Then a few of the trans partners felt "silenced" by that caveat, and you know we can't have that. I entered the group while all of this was going on, and it didn't take long at all for it to become clear that while the group's mission statement said it was a safe space for partners of transfolk to discuss their feelings, it was anything but. There was a faction in the group who seemed to be there solely to lie in wait for someone to say something they didn't like so they could pounce. By the time I was banned, the group had turned almost entirely into a competition to prove who could be the most supportive of trans people and call out the most transphobia. It certainly wasn't a place where any partner of a person in transition could express that they weren't feeling so great about that. I found the same thing all over town. There were at the time 4 or 5 in-person support groups in Portland that I was able to track down, and every one had an inclusive policy that pretty well defeated the purpose of a support group for me. The whole concept of partners discussing transition and related issues out of earshot of trans people was apparently offensive. I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too. I'm glad to hear that there are such groups elsewhere, but I didn't have access to any of them. |
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Also some obnoxious people have followed her to her blog to yell at her in the comments. I want to find each one of them and do them bodily harm. I hope that nobody HERE is harassing her. And if you are, know this: I don't fucking like you. |
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Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds. |
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I, too, had a poor experience on a SOFFA group. I expressed some concerns/anxieties and out of hundreds of members maybe two responded and I didn't feel very supported. Also, there were transfolks that posted in the SOFFA group. I didn't feel comfortable with that b/c I wanted to share my personal thoughts/feelings about this experience, and I felt I had to censor myself b/c I might hurt someone's feelings. If it is a group for SOFFA's why do I have to worry about what the transfolks thought of my thoughts? Then again, reading the past posts from the SOFFA partners, I also noticed there seemed to be an emphasis on how we can SUPPORT and cheerlead our partner's transition and not enough concern for the non-transitioning partner. |
I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.
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I think it is safe to assume that most of us live in areas where we, unfortunately, don't have access to such groups and the only resources/forums are online. I'm envious that you live in a area that is progressive and has multiple options for those who are trans and their partners, but, of course, also happy for you in that you have such resources that work for you. |
All of the above explains a lot.
When we first got together my husband and I tried to find a support group for me to join, but nothing. Ironically that search eventually led me here. I did wonder why there wasn't a single support group when actually I know quite a few lesbians in relationships with transguys, both there from pre and post transition. It makes sense that groups fail to survive if they initially fail to provide a safe space. Then again, is it the spaces or the partners themselves that are at fault? I know through personal experience that an FTM partner could potentially be the one to stab me in the back if she felt I was expressing an 'unacceptable' opinion. Nor would I be likely to join a support group which granted my husband access. It should be an outlet for me to vent, free from the fear of hurting my relationship or his feelings. I may just stick to writing down my thoughts and feelings here, tempered in the knowledge that all of my words are public property. |
MODERATION
A post was reported for possible concern regarding threatening language against other members. Mods have discussed, and the conclusion is: Please remember that even though it might be being used as a figure of speech without any real intentions, it is against the TOS to make references to doing physical injury to others. Please take care to avoid these types of statements in the future. Thank you. |
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The really sad thing is that my experience was in Portland, OR. We have a huge LGBT community here. Sometimes I think the transmen in this town outnumber the female ID butches (they probably don't, but it feels that way on occasion). I think part of the problem here is that we've gone so far to the other side of the pendulum swing. So many people just don't have any access to support groups at all. Here, there are so many they're competing with each other, and they all seem to have decided the way to compete is by being the very most inclusive of all the inclusive groups. A large part of the Portland ethic is that you can never, ever be exclusionary about anything, ever. That sounds great on the surface, but what it actually translates to is hundreds of groups that aren't actually *about* anything. We have knitting clubs where half the members don't knit, cooking clubs where half the members don't cook, I recently joined the campus Queer Club, and only about 1/3 of the membership is actually LGBT. It used to be called something like LGBT Students of {college} but they changed it to Queer Club because people felt excluded. Because, you know, we're inclusive and that means it doesn't matter what the group is actually for, everyone who feels like coming is welcome whether they care about the stated purpose of the group or not. |
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I thanked atomiczombie for hys post because I appreciated the sensitivity hy showed by realizing that this thread was posted in the Femme Zone, and as such, maybe it would be more appropriate for the discussion to take place among femmes only. I don't agree or disagree, I just wanted to thank hym for recognizing that it might be an issue for some folks. As for me, this isn't my site, and I'm not interested in policing the thread. If others feel that this thread is best left to femmes only, I trust that they'll take that up with the site admins. I don't have a horse in this race one way or the other. |
I also want to say without appearing flip that the only reason I posted this in the Femme zone was because the article was because it was from the POV of a femme involved with a transman. I don't want it to seem like I did it to exclude other voices or contributions, but that considering the subject and perspective, the Femme Zone seemed like the best place to post it.
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Blue isn't a transman but Hy's had top surgery and is on T, neither of which would have been possible were it not for Hys regular visits to a London based gender clinic.
The worst part of the whole experience from my point of view (apart from the awful mood swings that I put down to Blue being on the wrong medication)? Receiving a copy of the letter sent by the gender clinic psychologist to O/our family doctor and realizing that the most intimate details of my relationship with Blue in general and O/our sex life in particular were now no longer private. I was angry with the psychologist, I was angry with the system that made sharing the information a necessity, and for a time, yes, I was very resentful of the fact that no one - including Blue - had sought my permission to talk about things that related to my life as much as they related to Blue's (I still question the ethics of this and honestly feel that somewhere along the line, my permission should have been sought.) Apart from that, no complaints whatsoever (apart from the 'man sweat' socks - those are nasty;)) Words |
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