Most of the times I get called sir, ma'am or lady are in customer service situations and it doesn't greatly offend me, but it does seem to add to having to gender everything.

late at night a very drunk young man me and 2 of my officers talking to him trying to get his story now mind you I have my full duty uniform on that includes bulletproof vest.. it went something like this: me " look I know you have been drinking you need to stop giving my officers a hard time " Officer Bingo " so you need to give us you ID" Young man points to me and says " Shut up I want to talk to HIM" my officer becomes very angry and shakes his finger at drunk young man " have some respect can't you see my Corporal is a LADY" young man stopped and almost cried saying how sorry he was .. yeah I ended up wrapping him in a tarp {he had poopied his pants) and took his gross ass home he kept saying sorry finally I told him look I cut you a HUGE break do not have me called to your dorm for you tonight or I WILL arrest you

Puts a whole new spin on things. Lady can be kick ass awesome!

You all have got me thinking more about this business of how folks address each other and I have had a couple of new thoughts. Mostly about this business of when and why we and others seem to feel a need to assign gender at all.

Still forming the thoughts so it may be a little rough around the edges.

Some of this might go back to era and social class norms. Back when…I'll pick 1940's out of a hat. People behaved more formally with each other, gender and professional titles were used as a form of etiquette and an indicator of station in life, sometimes instead of a name, e.g. "Welcome Judge", Hello Dr.", "Reverend Smith", "Chairwoman of the committee". At the time people also dressed much more strictly along gender lines (mostly) so that if someone of a different class (lower) needed to address someone and did not know their title the default was something like "May I take your hat Sir" or "Help you with your bags Ma'am?" Kind of like the customer service model mentioned earlier.

Some of this, at least out in public, may be hold over language from when we spoke differently and it just won't die yet. I was also thinking about some other areas of communication, for instance in writing. Not that long ago pretty much all writing in business and personal began with "Dear so and so," and ended with "Sincerely". Now with emails, texts, and tweets, that has mostly become much less structured.

Maybe some of what I have been experiencing has been hold over etiquette in our language. Maybe I've been getting my boxers in a twist over something that I'm just making bigger in my own mind. Most of, if not all of the time it seems that those who get it wrong are not doing it on purpose, not trying to insult me. Yes I have been harassed intentionally in the past, but that is not what I'm talking about here. It bothers me a lot that every thing and person seems to be labeled with a gender. But maybe if I turn it around and look at it from the other side, we/they/us just haven't modified our language as quickly as our appearances and societal behavior.

Frankly, it used to be much easier at a glance to put most folks in an easy to define checkbox in our minds. My presenting in a less-boxable way causes confusion in some of the people that I meet. It was mentioned earlier that children are sometimes the best (thanks Bulldog), they just ask if I'm a boy or a girl, (if you want to screw with the parents, just answer loudly; "Both!"). I guess my point is that uncertainty makes people uncomfortable, by being visibly different I have the opportunity to expose them seeing something possibly unexpected and the next time they have the chance to get it right.

Yep, still ticks me off. Trying to see different angles though.

Hmmm……:thinking:

You might also consider that the parents are enlightened beings, and wouldn't be "screwed with" by answering "both!". My friend is bisexual, and although she's explained to her 10 yr old daughter that people can love whomever they want, and that she likes both "boys and girls", the fact remains that her daughter is 10. She said to us, one night at dinner, something like "if that boy liked that other boy then he'd be a lesbian.". So, obviously she was in the ballpark, but it's probably not all crystal clear to children of that age range,regardless if their parents are dense or whether they completely "get it" and try to pass on those enlightened values to their children.

Touche`:)

Just shooting for a little humor. No offense intended.

None taken. I just wanted to make the point that not everyone out there is a complete dumbass, although there are days and weeks where it certainly seems like they are!

The only time I was with someone female-gendered who enjoyed being mistaken for a man, was also the time I was with someone who held quite misogynistic views, so no, I wasn't great about it.
As for my other partners... Like someone else has said it didn't make me comfortable as a/ my partner was being misgendered and not generally very happy about it (tho sometimes amused) and b/ I wanted to be recognised and seen as a lesbian and c/ It really annoys me that your regular person on the street is so gendered in such a disrespectful and blind way. You are muscular with short hair? Then you must be a male with tits. Long haired and slender? Clearly a woman with stubble. It's so ridiculous. As gay people we make an effort to actually look at people, yet those people out there don't bother. It's too easy to dump their own assumptions on us.
[/rant]

I guess this question is hard for me, lol.

First of all, I kind of wish we lived in a society where people didn't assume other people's sexes and/or genders. So, no, people shouldn't assume...because maybe I might look one way, but identify another. And it should only be up to the individual person to identify themselves.

But like others have said in the thread, I think that most people just want to be recognised as their identities. If someone identifies as female chances are they want to be recognised as female. If someone is genderqueer they probably don't want people assuming they are either male or female.

I'm a transguy and also identify with male id'd butch. There's a lot of narrative in the trans community about passing and being "stealth." A lot of transguys feel it affirms their maleness to blend in and be assumed as a cisguy, and if they like women then they think it affirms them as men to pass as a straight couple. I don't really feel that way. Because I'm not a cisguy and I'm a queer guy into queer women. Being assumed a cisguy doesn't affirm maleness...my transguyness affirms my maleness...as does my queerness. Being assumed straight wouldn't feel affirming to me either. I guess I'm torn because as much as I have never felt female/woman and never identified as female/woman, I also can't say that I'm a cisguy and at this point I'm actually happy to have been born a transguy and not a cisguy. I want to "pass," but I want to "pass" as a transguy :p ...somehow recognised as legitimately male without people assuming all the shit that they usual assume when they hear "male." Meaning certain genitalia as well as certain experiences, attitudes amongst other things.

So yeah I want people to assume that I'm a guy in my daily life...but I wish that somehow society recognised different types of guys in a positive way. It also gets more complicated than that when sharing experiences and personal histories.

It kind of reminds me of that transguy recently who volunteered to become the leader of a breastfeeding group. He had borne his own child and was breastfeeding his own child and participating in the breastfeeding group. He had the opportunity to become the leader of the group and suddenly all hell broke lose. The media/society making fun of him and making a circus out of it, other transguys turning their backs on him and asking "why you would want to be the leader of a breastfeeding group when you're a guy," and so on and so forth. But people just generally have trouble seeing him as both a guy and someone capable of giving birth and breastfeeding...who should have the right to lead a group like that as much as anyone else who has the experience of breastfeeding their kid.

So I think that brings up the issues of the complications that arise when you assume anything about a person. Yeah many transguys want people to assume they're guys (as it seems this guy does, too), but what does that mean? Their experiences as certain people with certain experiences, histories, physical capabilities and so on seem to conflict for many people with being read as male.

There's a lot of baggage that comes with assuming someone's sex/gender...and I wish there wasn't. That I could be assumed a guy without people assuming shit about my life, my body, my attitudes towards my body and my experiences.

,,,,,im glad you chuckled, so many people butches and transguys get angry when people stare or do a double take - i just see it that if you look different (in any way) or people arent sure what to make of you, people are naturally curious, staring is rude of course but before I passed as male, lots of people stared and i just used to smile back because i understood.
I had one incident where a guy actually stopped me and told me when I was very much looking like a woman in a suit and tie, which i never wear now, he said "you look fabulous" - which was a lovely thing to say and i appreciated it at a time when I was trying to find my way in the gender confusion I was experiencing - I used to wear suit, tie and - wait for it - "makeup"!!! Dont you just love the mascara...lol!
http://http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...gj2go/1078.jpg

BIG DIFFERENCE NOW- no suit and NOOOOOOOOOO makeuphttp://http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...aquesBilly.jpg

The older I get, the more I am sir'd.
I do not like it
but I don't like the alternatives either.
I think it's possible to engage with people
without using either pronoun and just be polite.

I have to admit I do like the mind-fuck area
better than blending. Queers do see me and I
relish that.

I'm not quit sure what it is about freeways but I enjoy some
good cruising action ,stuck in traffic, at times. When the
eyes are on me , I wonder if these women know what I am.
Are they straight , could they be femme? It's not like it's going to
go anywhere. Their eyes met across a crowded freeway and.... :sigh:


I had a strange thing happen at work yesterday. Two male co-workers
and I were talking and one commented about a female co-worker really needing to
get some ( as in get laid.) He then quickly said he was not giving IT to her.
It was like I was not even there.
Then it dawned on him , that I was right fucking there growling and ready to
insult the hell out of him.
He said oh you heard that right? I said I sure the hell did and may have
angrily flounced away. If only I could flounce better I could be mistaken
for a gay man which would somehow feel better to me, than a straight one.

> Edited to add: this is not to say that all gay men flounce but I would likely be a flouncer. If I could choose:]

There will be an incident report filled out by me. How can I not, really?
I'm so Sick of working with bozo 's . It's 2012, pull your head out already.

I work in a potentially sexist environment where the men in my immediate area sort of tiptoe around me on their best behavior. When my boss is inappropriate, I put him back in his place and document it, but it takes a toll on me.

I often feel like I have no one to really "talk to" at work, though my work is respected.

I miss working in literacy, with more social-justice minded folks. I think that feeling of being alone has been exacerbated by the conditions of my relationship. I'm moving out, and looking for an apartment. In fact I'm on the computer tonight going back and forth with a real estate broker.

But I'm not out yet. And feeling alone at work as well as home, has been hard. One good friend at work would make a huge difference. When I read your post I thought, Damn, I wish she worked where I work.

I have a question and I am only asking because I truly do not know or understand:

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

Sorry I can't help you GG. I'm still trying to understand why a bio male, would want to pass as a butch, but who also is a male identified butch, and not a gay guy, who wants people to assume their a female identified butch, and not trans.

I have read this thread forward and in reverse in search of the
bio male you "might" be speaking of.
Not found.
If you are talking about someone in this thread ,it might be a nice touch to quote them and ask them directly.

If I tried to pass I would probably be perceived as a 9-year-old boy, but I do not care about my partner 'passing' personally. My relationship would be with the person not the rest of society.

What do you think people perceive Thomas Beatie to be, a man? Well he is, even if he is getting impregnated. He is ready for his fourth child and says if his current g/f can't have the child, he will again. I just have to wonder what people assume about this. . or even Chaz when he went on Dancing With the Stars. There are those that love these people for who they are and coming out and sharing their lives with the public, then there are others who do not agree with the whole lifestyle or say they aren't men. I am actually glad there are trans like this out in the community to enlighten people that they are men too. I know this is a butch thread but I wanted to share this to show that men come in all variations and men come from identifying as lesbian and then as butch also (in Chaz's case). I think when it comes to identifying as male-identified butch and trans man it does have to do with the word man and instead of "assuming" people should just embrace. That includes all the gender identities on the spectrum.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/757953/thu...N-large570.jpg

Kinda off topic but I watched a show on NatGeo or something about Transfolk where they featured a section of the straight male population that want to transition into the butches. Also, in Ivan Coyotes new novel, I believe I read some stories written by a few of these transfolk. I never knew of this population. We are a very diverse world, we are!

This whole topic is extremely interesting to me as I am in the midst of struggling with my own gender issues. As it stands now I certainly expect that people will recognize me as female as that's the body that I am in. How could they possibly know how I feel inside? That said, there is an occasional sir from people who only catch a quick glance and don't take the time to notice the whole person. I don't get offended at all and usually don't say anything unless it's important that they know I'm female (like at a doctor's office). In the past, I have gotten upset with people for seeing me as male but I attribute that to my own internal conflict over the issue...not theirs.