This is what I don't understand--how can *anyone* be sanguine about this law? How can people *not* put themselves in that scenario and imagine it happening to them. And then I remember just how different things can be. The other night, on the way home from our anniversary dinner, a cop pulled up to us as we were passing the downtown police HQ. He asked if he could turn in front of us (we were at the curbside, he was in the middle lane), and told us that our passenger side taillight was stuck in 'on'. As we drove away J commented "I wonder how that would have gone if you'd been driving and this wasn't an Audi". This is a thought that only would have occurred to J since being with me. She's not racist. She's not callous. She's white, from Salt Lake City and it just never occurred to her that it was like this for non-white people.

Thank you for making the scenario visceral.

I really appreciate your posts here AJ.

I too, wonder what would have happened had you not been in that Audi the other night, because I've seen it way too many times to pretend it doesn't happen.

We have relatives coming over from El Paso next month. Can I just tell you how surreal it was to have several conversations with them about what "paperwork" they should bring along because they have to drive through AZ.

They are worried that a birth certificate isn't enough, even though they are 7th generation Americans. They go right to the nightmare scenario of being detained and having social services take their small children.

Seriously. Who should be worrying about ICE when going to visit Mickey Mouse?

Given that the alternative is having to agree with a bunch of bleeding heart knee jerk commie socialist fascist nazi liberals who support a president who wasn't even born in this country, my guess is "nothing will".

My Bleeding Heart......
 

Watch this video!! U.S. Supreme Court has decided to hear the legality issues in another Arizona immigration law!! "No Mas" - "No More"

Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

you kill me. here is an interesting article, written no doubt, by a bleeding heart knee jerk liberal.

http://www.american-reporter.com/3,972/9.html

I feel like everytime I read the news I see people advocating for intolerance.

I made the mistake of watching 8: The Mormon Proposition last night. The powerful wave of hatred towards gays shocked me. The fact that they so blatantly hate and conspired the way they did shocked me.

Seeing Bill O'Reilly refer to the POTUS as "Mr. Obama" shocks me.

Rand Paul shocks me.

Sally Kern shocks me.

A law written by a man with known racist/neo-nazi ties targeting brown people shocks me.

I could go on and on and on with a list of people that are in powerful or political positions advocating for intolerance.

However, I have not (nor will I ever) become numb to the feeling of shock. I am afraid that a majority of America has become numb, spewing back rhetoric heard on Faux News (which IMO is not a new outlet any longer, but a Political Lobbyist).

Where is this all going to end?

Dread,

You and I have had this discussion before. Critical thinking, good and bad ideas by whose standards?

You can quote Brown vs the Board of Education, the Black codes, Pluessy vs Ferguson, the entire litany of racism in America. But, judge it by whose standards, under what conditions, and by whom?

Your own leaders have said stop relying on the white race to solve racism for you. Booker Washington. W.E. B. DuBois, Marcus Garvey, Malcom X. Louis Farrakhan all espoused a different philosophy of empowering yourself by taking the control of your own lives. Here is the reference for those who need it for words to have any relevance http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...man-8217/6774/ .

So what was a good idea and a bad idea? And by whose standard? Cuz some people would be saying the leaders of the Black movement were betraying their own people by thinking this way.

Did Obama become President because he espoused racism? He got an education, he has ideas people were ready for, he was willing to listen, he knew he had to compromise. You dont succeed by beating people over the head because they disagree with you.

And one can not take anything as a given. The constitution gives us the right to bear arms. Chicagos no gun rule was just decided in the Supreme Court. 9 justices...5 saying you have the unqualified right to have guns, 4 saying you dont. Which is a good idea and which is a bad one? And by whose standards?

Now back to immigration and the Arizona law.....everyone wants to brand me a a racist because I dont "critically think as they do". So be it. I look at the larger picture of immigration and how policy affects the quality of life in America. A solid immigration policy based on economics served us well when we were a growing industrialized nation. And immigrants made tremendous contributions to what this country has become. Immigrants who circumvent the system cause problems for all of us. I wont even bother to go into the ways this a problematical cuz none of you even bother to listen.

Do I like the idea of American citizens being subjected to having to prove they are citizens? About as much as I like being humiliated at an airport as a potential terror threat because I use liquid soap. Is it a good idea or a bad idea and by whose standards?

When we were rounding up all the Japanese in this country and putting them in camps when Pearl Harbor was attacked...no one thought twice about it. Was it a good idea? Maybe at the time, who knows.

And immigration issues do NOT just affect persons of color or ethnicity. Here in Mass. if you want the state mandatory health insurance or a driver license, you had damn well have proof of citizenship. It affects all groups, all colors, all nationalities, all socio-economic groups. Arizona is just more blatant about it. Amazes me that the feds or the aclu havent sought an injunction pending review and makes me wonder why.

What annoys me most on these forums is when one has a different point of view, others feel it is their right to belittle them, to call them names, and be generally rude. They would not like it if I went around doing the same to them but it is ok for them to do it to me and others under the guise of racism. Pull out the race card and civility goes in the hopper. But, they are the first to say....read the TOS?????? Hello??????

it's not because of how you apply critical thinking skills.

it is because of sweeping generalizations like: "he got an education" or "you played the race card" that people might sit back and think what your are saying has racist overtones/undertones.

nobody can "make" you think anything, or force you to see how your statements are hurtful to the brown people here. that is not possible.

you ARE entitled to your thoughts.

it is in the manner that you choose to share them that you become suspect.

excuse my ignorance--but what do you mean by 'your own leaders'?

are we segregating leaders? and if so, by what?

(also, i find it ironic that you'll respond to every person in this thread except for me and i am the ONLY person that actually lives in arizona.)

Well, let's see--by what standard? Let's start here. Black people in the 19th century were not considered fully human enough to be citizens. Now either black people WERE human enough to be considered citizens but weren't, in which case an injustice was done or we were not, in which case, Jim Crow was no worse than we deserved. I would argue that it was the former and that there was an injustice. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Kobi, I'm going to say this once and hopefully I'll never have to say this to you again because the next time I have to say it I won't be anywhere near as polite. It is an extraordinarily bad idea to attempt to plug me into the slot labeled "angry black woman who tries to blame white people for all the conditions of her life". I'm not that woman. No one who has ever read anything I've posted on the Internet can justifiably put me in that slot. You haven't read a lot of my posts so perhaps you don't realize this but I hold only myself responsible for the conditions of my life and, as my local friends and my wife will tell you, I push myself extraordinarily hard. One of the things I use to do so is the following: "to be a successful black person in America you have to strive to be the smartest person in the room--every room, every time. Not pretend to be, not puff yourself up to be, but to ACTUALLY be. You show up early, you stay late. If the average for your field is a bachelor's get a masters. If a master's get a doctorate. If you do ALL of that and still don't get the goodies--then and only then can you call it racism". If you are going to try to put me in the category of 'angry black woman who blames white people for the conditions of her life' you are going to look quite the fool and so take this as a friendly warning against such a doom-ridden path. I don't take insult at much that is said on these boards, the sentence I quoted from you above I take as an insult.

Being brutally honest about the history of race in America isn't espousing racism. Pointing out racial injustice isn't espousing racism. If it is then that list of black men you just pulled out of the hat to try to bolster a point that is flailing about ALL espoused racism. If battling injustice or pointing it out is espousing racism, then MLK also espoused racism. You don't get to have it both ways and invoke black people you've never read in depth to try to prop up a point while simultaneously claim that other blacks (or other non-whites) are 'playing the race card' when those blacks you invoke would ALSO be playing that same card. Secondly, just because a black person brings up the history of race in America does not mean that she is 'relying on the white race to solve racism'. I do not now, nor have I ever, posted anything on this or any other message board that could be read as blaming white people for the condition of my life in even the most wild-eyed interpretation. You will never read anything from me along those lines because it is not how I think. However, I am not going to do you or any other white person the favor of developing convenient historical amnesia and pretend that Jim Crow wasn't profoundly unjust nor am I going to do you the favor of pretending that perhaps there was a point to Jim Crow and maybe it wasn't a bad thing.

I KNOW it was a bad thing, Kobi because black people are human and human beings should not be treated in the way blacks were under segregation. By whose standards? By ANY standard that recognizes that all people are human beings and deserving of some baseline amount of justice, equality and respect. You may not hold to that standard, you may want to play games and say "who is to say if it was wrong to say black people aren't fully human and by what standard" but I'm not in the least bit obliged to go along with it. Until such time as you can demonstrate that I and the people I am genetically related to are not exactly members of Homo sapiens sapiens then segregation was wrong--by any standard that recognizes human beings as human beings and deserving to those things we hold to be self-evidently true.

At any rate does this have to do with ANYTHING? I was using race as an example of an idea because you claimed that the diversity of ideas--without qualification--is what makes America strong. I was asking--and you have avoided answering--what about racist ideas made America stronger such that now that those ideas are (or were) in attenuation the nation is less strong than when racist ideas were widespread and socially acceptable? So are you saying that my using the history of race in America to demonstrate how intellectually bankrupt the idea that any idea is something that should be accepted no matter how sound it is or isn't, I am somehow saying that white people are responsible for the conditions of my life?

I'm curious, have you actually read either Washington or DuBois? Farrakhan is a clown and a charlatan at best.

Kobi, not to put too fine a point on the matter but I have forgotten more about what it takes for a black person to be successful in America than you will ever realize that there is to learn. If you were to live as long as Methuselah you would still never know half of what I know about what it takes to be successful in America if you are black.

You know what's really interesting to me? When we were a growing industrial economy CERTAIN immigrants were okay but certain other ones were not. The Irish weren't okay--when we were a growing industrial economy and then they became okay. The Italians weren't okay when we were a growing industrial economy--and then they became okay. Then it was the Chinese and the Japanese and it took a tad bit longer for them to become okay. And the Jews, of course, had their turn of not being okay. This isn't the first time America has had one of these paroxysms of anti-immigration hysteria and the language has always been precisely the same and in a couple of generations everyone will once again be claiming how immigration makes America stronger and pretending that 20 years earlier, they weren't screaming at the top of their lungs about the latest group to come over the border.

So, Kobi, do you like the idea of American citizens being subjected to humiliation because they happen to share a phenotypic trait with someone who was born in Mexico and is here picking strawberries? Are you okay with that?

Actually, people did think twice about it. They thought twice about it so much that eventually the United States government apologized for violating the civil rights of US citizens. And if you read ANYTHING about the period, you realize that, in fact, it wasn't necessary.

When I hear about Seamus who overstayed his visa being stopped for driving while Irish I'll give that some credence. However, here in the real world the people who need to be careful to have their ID on them--including a birth certificate--when they are out walking the dog are all brown-skinned. Like I said, when I hear about it happening to a white person who some cop thinks looks like he or she overstayed their visa from Ireland, I'll change my tune.

The ACLU HAS sought in injunction and it is working its way through the courts (it's amazing what happens when you pay attention to these things) and the Feds have *also* said that they will challenge the law (again, fascinating what you learn when you actually look into an issue).

I'm sorry but I don't see folks who are arguing against a racist law as being racist.

Aj

Kobi,

I'm always incredibly dismayed when someone says that a Person of Color "pulled out the race card". Especially since you seem to be intelligent.

I have seen more than one person in these forums resort to saying that a Person of Color "pulled out the race card", so what Im about to say isn't solely directed at you but I hope that you can hear what I'm about to say with an open mind.

Race is not a "card" that a person can whip out. Race is a part of a person's LIVED experience, a part of their lives, and unfortunately, oftentimes is a huge part of unfair, ignorant, and biggoted treatment that they receive from people who view their race as a "thing" that they whip out when they are trying to be "uppity" or "arrogant" or "overpowering" or (gasp) "too loud".

It is also incredibly disrespectful.

Sadly too, any argument you make using the "race card being pulled out" will get lost with folks like me who translate that as "white person who refuses to examine their racism or privilege".


M

Medusa:
I have never--and I doubt I ever will--hear a sufficient definition of 'playing the race card' that draws a useful distinction between 'pointing out injustice' and 'playing the race card'.

Kobi, using the 'playing the race card' logic then DuBois and Washington played the race card as did MLK, Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey, Thurgood Marshall, Rosa Parks, John Lewis and every other black person who marched, wrote, protested, or did anything to fight segregation. ALL of them were 'playing the race card' because ALL of them refused to pretend that racism was okay. All of them called injustice as injustice and therefore were 'playing the race card'.

Now can you explain to me the difference between Thurgood Marshall arguing Brown v. Board and 'playing the race card'? Do you have a definition of playing the race card that makes a distinction between that and pointing out injustice where it is encountered?

Cheers
Aj

Wow, I was once agaon going to mention that by boycotting Arizona we are hurting the workers themselves more than the State. The waiters, taxi drivers, sheet ironers, factory workers.

But it seems way more in going on here than my brain can handle today.

OK, maybe a little. :)

There is no "us and them"....we are WE. Our Leaders. Our Problem.

and

I hear the word "card" all the time....Gay Card, Sex Card, Race Card.....Everyone here knows there is no "Card" right?

Apparently not.

Kobi,

First of all, I am so NOT calling you names. Not at all.

If I have angered and/or insulted you, that was not my intent.

My post was a plea to you to maybe think about how what you are saying sometimes can perhaps be interpreted as having racial overtones/undertones.

I'm not calling you a racist, what I *am* asking of you is that you hear how your words can be hurtful to those of us who have parents who came here illegally, those of us that have green cards, those of us that are scared to drive through AZ and that is all.

I understand that you can agree with the law in AZ, and I am not going to try to change your mind. It is your right. I'm not trying to say to you "boycott or bust". I promise.

What I *was* hoping to convey was how sweeping generalizations can be very hurtful.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

Again, I apologize if you feel I was calling you names, or attacking you.

SF

Unless, of course, what you've said is actually racist.


Then It Is What It Is, And No One's Playing Cards...Bingo Maybe, But Definitely Not Cards,
Dylan

So at what point, historically speaking, did it become OK to not let people from Mexico enter Arizona, land the US decided belongs to the US and just took from Mexico?

The place in my heart/head that helps me decide what is right and wrong says Geopolitical Borders that keep people out is not the right thing to do/have....EVER.

But....

ESPECIALLY when the land in question belonged to the people we are trying to keep out.

A small aside
 

A couple of folks have said things to me privately since my last response to Kobi about my patience. Thank you. I'm glad it's noticed. However, I have no other real choice. Without getting anywhere *near* saying anything like "white people are to blame..." Kobi tried to give me the "you have to not blame white people for your life" lecture to put me on the right path. Now imagine if I had lost my nut and just turned on the flames. I would have fully validated the whole "you're just an angry black woman" meme that the "your leaders..." comment was symptomatic of. This preternatural calm comes hard and it has taken years and years of practice for it to become second nature but it is the only choice. Those of you who know me in the hard-world know what I do for a living--there is no way in *hell* anyone would ever have hired me for my first gig if I had come off as an angry black woman and there's no way I would have had a second gig if I did.

Kobi you made one more mistake that I think you might need pointed out to you. Of the men you mentioned--DuBois, Washington, Garvey, Farrakhan and Malcolm X, only two of them do I agree with substantially (the first two) and only one of whom I would take as a role model (DuBois). My 'leaders', my role models--my parents and grandparents notwithstanding--are largely not black men or women. If I am trying to style my life after anyone it is these people:

Charles Darwin
Albert Einstein
Paul Dirac
Steven Weinberg
Rachel Carson
Rosalyn Franklin
Richard Dawkins
E. O. Wilson
Lynn Margulis
Steven Hawking
Ed Witten
Carl Sagan
Richard Feynman
Michio Kaku
Lee Smolin
Terry Pratchett
Douglas Adams
Martin Luther King
Mark Knopfler
Susan Jacoby
Mae Jameson
Richard Hofstadter


Those are people I look up to. They are the ones who (at least the living ones) if I met I would be dumbfounded, starstruck and humbled to be in their very presence. These are MY leaders. DuBois, Washington, Malcolm X, Farrakhan, Garvey and the Obamas all share a phenotype with me (within a certain range) but that does not make them my heroes or my role models. I am a scientist and a writer, my heroes and role models are largely scientists and writers.

As a rule, it's a mistake to assume that because someone is, say, black their heroes, role models, guiding stars will all be black.

Aj