Butch Femme Planet - It's Time to Boycott Arizona

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- - It's Time to Boycott Arizona (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1230)

Cause I ain't no fucking Pokemon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141022)

With all due respect that is bullshit.

When I state my views and someone calls me a racist, I am not the one who pulled the race card out, they did.

And it is not even the race card, it is anyone who disagrees with you must just be squelched just for disagreeing and the easiest way to shut them up, some think, up is to call them racist.

These are complex issues that cannot be watered down to just one aspect if we expect to solve them. Making it a one aspect agrument is the quickest way to stop it dead in its tracks. It makes a mockery out of the complexity of trying to balance many aspects of any issues and how it impacts millions of people ...not just one group or race.

And I love again, how you dismiss the entire gist of my post and turn it to the race issue again. That is critical thinking? And you have the audacity to question how I develop my views?

And what, now you have a problem with Obama being an educated man?

And again, you want me to see how my statements are hurtful to brown people but it is ok for brown people to belittle me and call me names? Yeah that is sure fighting fair...uh huh sign me up for more of that logic.

And again, it is how I ME say something. Of course you all dont have the same requirement. You can say whatever you feel, however you feel like, and call anybody anything and its ok? Not in my world. Its a give and take. You show respect you get respect. And maybe sometimes people come across as caustic and abrasive because they know damn well that disagreeing is going to lead to a slaughter of character under the guise of misplaced righteous indignation. But noooo we cant deal with that behavior cuz it runs contrary to our motives, we must regain control.

The TOS say respectful to all not just to those who agree with you.

That is the kind of thinking that leads to laws like Arizonas, and the rise of the new right and its ultraconservatism, and others nonesense.

Life is complex. Balancing the needs of all is complex because there are many factors to consider to do the best for the most while trying to piss off the fewest.

It would really be nice if WE could take the higher road here and say yeah this group has a point and this group has another point and that group makes a little sense too. How can we put this all together so everyone wins even if we dont all get everything we want without having to call people names?

I am going to address you about this since it is I you called out as using a race card..

Allow me to say I am not some fucking Pokemon creature or collector and I am surely not *throwing* my race around. I tried and tried to get across to you via my life experiences, my familiy's experiences but you *chose* to see it as something else. That's on you and well it tells me A LOT about you. Is that harsh?

No.

You wonder why we (speaking for me and those around me who have read this over my shoulder) you come off as racist and I will take the time to show you why...

Underhanded racist comments such as...

"Your own leaders have said stop relying on the white race to solve racism for you."( are we now dividing leaders according to color and race?)

"When we were rounding up all the Japanese in this country and putting them in camps when Pearl Harbor was attacked...no one thought twice about it. Was it a good idea? Maybe at the time, who knows. " (really? you think that this was a solution, cause that is downright scary being caged up
like some animal cause of your race)

"it is easier to just pull out the race card and feed on emotions than it is to deal with the people deliberately and willfully breaking the law." ( I don't remember being there when they handed out these cards lemme know where I can get one since you know so much about them)

"I hear what you are saying. I could respond in kind i.e. saying people are undocumented rather than illegal is just a marketing ploy to take legal immigration out of the picture and make ilegal immigration more palatable." (I know there have been many times on this site where we have all used or have asked that people use undocumented)

"How incredibly racist and presumptuous of you. " (directed at me since I am choosing to talk about my experience and not fall for the bullshit that this law is really masking)

"Lady Snow,

This isnt even worth responding to. Obviously you have some issue which I have no intention of making mine." (cause me talking about my experience and how I feel about this law in a thread that is ABOUT BOYCOTTING NOT PRO THIS LAW means I have *issues*)

"my allegiance is with the people who belong here, not with those who deliberately circumvented the laws because they wanted to do so. That type of selfish, self serving behavior is insulting." ( the proof is in the puddin;)

"One can only wonder what these people might be able to achieve if they put their energy to work in changing the conditions in their own countries rather than invading others." (mad applause for referring to us as those people)

So you wonder why people see you this way

Above is why.

It's covert racism, is privileged, ugly and you got called on it.

Would I hang with you? Not at this point, why?

Cause I am one of those fucking people, and these people you speak of they are my people, and you may think I am a bleeding heart, well guess fucking what I am. I know what it's like to be constantly looked upon like we are some disease, is that me using my race card? You may think so, I on the other hand would hope that maybe you can open your pretty lil eyes and see outside of your soft, pretty, priveleged world.

Seriously, the USA TOOK Arizona from Mexico.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 141073)

Seriously, the USA TOOK Arizona from Mexico.

And California, and New Mexico.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic (Post 141073)

Seriously, the USA TOOK Arizona from Mexico.

http://0.tqn.com/d/gomexico/1/7/Z/5/...cal_mexico.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 141074)

And California, and New Mexico.

Yep! and now, anyone suspected of mayyybe being Mexican must be kept out? How can this be right?

Undocumented rather that illegal a marketing ploy???? I would say it is more of a cover up of land theft.

"Manifest Destiny" still alive and well.

Another example of covert racism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141022)

And again, you want me to see how my statements are hurtful to brown people but it is ok for brown people to belittle me and call me names? Yeah that is sure fighting fair...uh huh sign me up for more of that logic.

We are not that kinda homies, that you get to go around and refer to us

as brown people..

I got a fucking name.

It's shit like this that keeps POC out of the sites, cause really we have enough going on and then to come on here and read this kinda shit, isn't worth it...

We got fucking names that cover that, like Latino, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Nicaraguan etc etc.

It's like I can call my mom a dick, can you? No......

I think it would be a grand idea to pull over every white driver that happens to use Native Lands to get to say, Flagstaff, or Phoenix. Put them in jail on the Rez and throw away the keys. Now do you see Kobi how this law is racist?

dread,

I have always respected you for the way you communicate ideas and provide history. I did not in any way intend to say anything about you being an angry black person. I apologize for anything that could have been interpreted this way.

We are back to standards... and can you go back in time and apply todays standards to yesterdays reality. Kind of difficult to do. What people believe changes over time thru experiences and new thoughts. What is appropriate today wasnt seen as totally acceptable at the time of the civil war. Can we apply todays standards and judge people for having adhered to the prevailing thought? It is counterproductive.

[At any rate does this have to do with ANYTHING? I was using race as an example of an idea because you claimed that the diversity of ideas--without qualification--is what makes America strong. I was asking--and you have avoided answering--what about racist ideas made America stronger such that now that those ideas are (or were) in attenuation the nation is less strong than when racist ideas were widespread and socially acceptable? So are you saying that my using the history of race in America to demonstrate how intellectually bankrupt the idea that any idea is something that should be accepted no matter how sound it is or isn't, I am somehow saying that white people are responsible for the conditions of my life? ]

I will answer you tho I am not sure what you are truly asking here. And let me finish before you jump on me cuz what I am saying and what you might think I am saying are two different things. Hatred of any kind does make us stronger people. Why? Because it gives us room to grow and develop and see things differently. If we were all purple and all thought the same and did the same and had the same, we would be a pretty boring species. But we are different. And as times change, thoughts and behaviors and beliefs change as well. What we believed 10 years ago is not what we believe today nor is today what we will believe tomorrow. This is a philosophical discussion best suited elsewhere...suffice to say that conflict leads to new thoughts and ways of being.....how can the potential for growth and development be a bad thing?

I might be misreading you but I hear you saying I think immigration is a bad thing. I dont. My family was immigrated here and we Italians in Providence were not allowed to walk on the sidewalks or the Irish would kick our asses.

Controlled immigration is done for a reason...the least of which is to allow in numbers which can be absorbed into a society, an economic system, a socal structure, the fabric of American life. Uncontrolled immigration poses many problems...you know that. If it didnt, all countries would throw open their borders and say come one, come all. They dont, and they dont for reasons.
How many times have we heard of American towns not cities towns having their population double almost overnight from legal immigration? And how they struggled to deal with it to the point of asking this particular group of peoples to stagger their arrivals because they didnt have the jobs, housing or other services to accomodate them? It is not a simple issue.

I still find it hard to believe that the aclu and the feds require months and months to get an injunction. Maybe I am naive but it seems there might be another reason for the delay.

[I'm sorry but I don't see folks who are arguing against a racist law as being racist.] dread, again, who is saying it is a racist law? A legislature passed it, a governor signed it. Who's perspective makes it racist? Yours? Mine? Without judgement, it is just a law. With judgement applied by differing groups of people, it is a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective. Does this make you right and me wrong or me right or you wrong? Or does it mean we just are looking at something given our respective experiences and coming to somewhat different conclusions?

Isnt that what this country is about? We, as a people, cannot even agree on "all men are created equal" means. When it was written it meant alll white men. Then it meant white and other men. People can fall back on that tidbit and say constitution says nothing about women so what are women?

Absolutes are problematical in anything because knowledge and values and beliefs change. All I ask for is to not be belittled or called names because I state a reality different from someone elses reality.

I dont think it is too much to ask.

[/FONT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadgeek (Post 141020)

Well, let's see--by what standard? Let's start here. Black people in the 19th century were not considered fully human enough to be citizens. Now either black people WERE human enough to be considered citizens but weren't, in which case an injustice was done or we were not, in which case, Jim Crow was no worse than we deserved. I would argue that it was the former and that there was an injustice. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Kobi, I'm going to say this once and hopefully I'll never have to say this to you again because the next time I have to say it I won't be anywhere near as polite. It is an extraordinarily bad idea to attempt to plug me into the slot labeled "angry black woman who tries to blame white people for all the conditions of her life". I'm not that woman. No one who has ever read anything I've posted on the Internet can justifiably put me in that slot. You haven't read a lot of my posts so perhaps you don't realize this but I hold only myself responsible for the conditions of my life and, as my local friends and my wife will tell you, I push myself extraordinarily hard. One of the things I use to do so is the following: "to be a successful black person in America you have to strive to be the smartest person in the room--every room, every time. Not pretend to be, not puff yourself up to be, but to ACTUALLY be. You show up early, you stay late. If the average for your field is a bachelor's get a masters. If a master's get a doctorate. If you do ALL of that and still don't get the goodies--then and only then can you call it racism". If you are going to try to put me in the category of 'angry black woman who blames white people for the conditions of her life' you are going to look quite the fool and so take this as a friendly warning against such a doom-ridden path. I don't take insult at much that is said on these boards, the sentence I quoted from you above I take as an insult.

Being brutally honest about the history of race in America isn't espousing racism. Pointing out racial injustice isn't espousing racism. If it is then that list of black men you just pulled out of the hat to try to bolster a point that is flailing about ALL espoused racism. If battling injustice or pointing it out is espousing racism, then MLK also espoused racism. You don't get to have it both ways and invoke black people you've never read in depth to try to prop up a point while simultaneously claim that other blacks (or other non-whites) are 'playing the race card' when those blacks you invoke would ALSO be playing that same card. Secondly, just because a black person brings up the history of race in America does not mean that she is 'relying on the white race to solve racism'. I do not now, nor have I ever, posted anything on this or any other message board that could be read as blaming white people for the condition of my life in even the most wild-eyed interpretation. You will never read anything from me along those lines because it is not how I think. However, I am not going to do you or any other white person the favor of developing convenient historical amnesia and pretend that Jim Crow wasn't profoundly unjust nor am I going to do you the favor of pretending that perhaps there was a point to Jim Crow and maybe it wasn't a bad thing.

I KNOW it was a bad thing, Kobi because black people are human and human beings should not be treated in the way blacks were under segregation. By whose standards? By ANY standard that recognizes that all people are human beings and deserving of some baseline amount of justice, equality and respect. You may not hold to that standard, you may want to play games and say "who is to say if it was wrong to say black people aren't fully human and by what standard" but I'm not in the least bit obliged to go along with it. Until such time as you can demonstrate that I and the people I am genetically related to are not exactly members of Homo sapiens sapiens then segregation was wrong--by any standard that recognizes human beings as human beings and deserving to those things we hold to be self-evidently true.

At any rate does this have to do with ANYTHING? I was using race as an example of an idea because you claimed that the diversity of ideas--without qualification--is what makes America strong. I was asking--and you have avoided answering--what about racist ideas made America stronger such that now that those ideas are (or were) in attenuation the nation is less strong than when racist ideas were widespread and socially acceptable? So are you saying that my using the history of race in America to demonstrate how intellectually bankrupt the idea that any idea is something that should be accepted no matter how sound it is or isn't, I am somehow saying that white people are responsible for the conditions of my life?

I'm curious, have you actually read either Washington or DuBois? Farrakhan is a clown and a charlatan at best.

Kobi, not to put too fine a point on the matter but I have forgotten more about what it takes for a black person to be successful in America than you will ever realize that there is to learn. If you were to live as long as Methuselah you would still never know half of what I know about what it takes to be successful in America if you are black.

You know what's really interesting to me? When we were a growing industrial economy CERTAIN immigrants were okay but certain other ones were not. The Irish weren't okay--when we were a growing industrial economy and then they became okay. The Italians weren't okay when we were a growing industrial economy--and then they became okay. Then it was the Chinese and the Japanese and it took a tad bit longer for them to become okay. And the Jews, of course, had their turn of not being okay. This isn't the first time America has had one of these paroxysms of anti-immigration hysteria and the language has always been precisely the same and in a couple of generations everyone will once again be claiming how immigration makes America stronger and pretending that 20 years earlier, they weren't screaming at the top of their lungs about the latest group to come over the border.

So, Kobi, do you like the idea of American citizens being subjected to humiliation because they happen to share a phenotypic trait with someone who was born in Mexico and is here picking strawberries? Are you okay with that?

Actually, people did think twice about it. They thought twice about it so much that eventually the United States government apologized for violating the civil rights of US citizens. And if you read ANYTHING about the period, you realize that, in fact, it wasn't necessary.

When I hear about Seamus who overstayed his visa being stopped for driving while Irish I'll give that some credence. However, here in the real world the people who need to be careful to have their ID on them--including a birth certificate--when they are out walking the dog are all brown-skinned. Like I said, when I hear about it happening to a white person who some cop thinks looks like he or she overstayed their visa from Ireland, I'll change my tune.

The ACLU HAS sought in injunction and it is working its way through the courts (it's amazing what happens when you pay attention to these things) and the Feds have *also* said that they will challenge the law (again, fascinating what you learn when you actually look into an issue).

I'm sorry but I don't see folks who are arguing against a racist law as being racist.

Aj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141094)

. And let me finish before you jump on me cuz . If

[I'm sorry but I don't see folks who are arguing against a racist law as being racist.] dread, again, who is saying it is a racist law? A legislature passed it, a governor signed it. Who's perspective makes it racist? Yours? Mine? Without judgement, it is just a law. With judgement applied by differing groups of people, it is a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective. Does this make you right and me wrong or me right or you wrong? Or does it mean we just are looking at something given our respective experiences and coming to somewhat different conclusions?

[/FONT]

Once again, this law is targeting a specific group of people by HOW THEY LOOK AND THEIR SKIN COLOR....

How you can not see this is beyond my comprehension.

American citizens HAVE been affected and detained BECAUSE of this law.

It's a sneaky way to target a group of people...

It's not really that hard to see.

Well unless you don't want to and are comfy with anything other than white being tagged with a bullet on your back.

Just sayin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 141093)

Or perhaps we should be pulling over white women who look too masculine, because we all know they are taking everyone's jobs and causing the collapse of the economy and sucking up social benefits which are putting this country into bankruptcy...oh, and molesting children and trying to be men.

Oh, Wait, They Tried That In The 50s and 60s And The Queers Took It To The Streets And Rioted,
Dylan

It's probably just a perspective thing though. I mean, I'm sure the straight people who made those laws were right in their perspectives and propaganda too

Lady Snow,

In the few months I have been here, you have called me a racist, a sexist, a misogynist when I do or say something you dont agree with.

And when I say something you agree with, you send me cutesy little notes.

Hm, what might that indicate...agree with me and I will treat you well. Disagree with me and I will call you names just cuz I can.

You tend to misinterpret what I say, sadly. Perfect example.....Japanese confinement. I didnt say anything about how I felt about it. You PRESUMED the way it was written that I agreed with it. Just as you presume about many things.

I for one do not appreciate it. Just not agreeing with you makes everything something....real or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 141064)

Again Lady Snow, you take something out of context and make it something it is not.

Superfemme made the reference to "brown people" re read it. I replied in kind. But noooooooo, lets just fly off the handle so you can continue the mad on you have.

Seriously, grow up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 141084)

If the AZ law is not racist? Then how do the police come to a reasonable suspicion that a person is here without permission? The only way is by skin color. Perhaps accent?

What about HB 2281?

While HB 2281 includes an exemption for the Holocaust, it makes it illegal to promote class resentment of any race or class of people. So how are teachers supposed to instruct African-American students about slavery? Or Asian-American students about the internment camps? Many great authors, including Dickens, Wharton, and Dostoyevsky, delve deeply into themes of class resentment. Does teaching them add up to “promoting race resentment?” Are their books to be stricken from curriculums in the Grand Canyon State?

I also question Governor Brewer’s motives. According to the National Education Association, Arizona ranks 50th in expenditure per pupil in grades K-12.

Ethnic studies courses are important because mainstream curriculums often overlook the contributions of minorities. They help put the salad bowl that is the United States into perspective.

Ideally, all students would learn about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and César Chávez along with other great Americans. But until that day comes, niche classes fill the void. On top of that, researchers have found that minority kids are more likely to succeed academically as a result of a multicultural course of study.

I am not fucking cutesey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141108)

Um.

Kobi.

I don't send cutesy lil notes.. nice try insinuating though ;)

Have I agreed with you on some of your posts oh yes.

Have I called you out on sexism, yes

Have I called you out on your underlined racism? yes

Does this feel like maybe *YOU* have an issue with me

yes it's pretty clear now.

I don't agree with you on your points of view on this law that you seem to think is A-OK.

if you would like we can take this private since now you seem to have made it personal.

Is my point of view going to change on how I feel about Arizona's new law.

NO.

Will I keep quiet?

NO...

Will that continue to piss you off

I believe so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141115)

Kobi a hint, Brown people are allowed to call each other Brown people. White people aren't, that is racist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141115)

FYI..

Superfemme

IS brown so she can use it

She is a latina

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Navy"]Medusa,

With all due respect, I have a real problem when differing standards are applied to people based on skin color.

You just said Kobi is a bad white person who must examine her presumed racism and privelege.

But people of color because of their unique life experience have free reign to call me names and belittle me?

This makes sense. Again, I have to allow for them but they dont have to treat me with any respect simply because of the color of their skin.

Thats bizarre.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 141023)

Kobi,

I'm always incredibly dismayed when someone says that a Person of Color "pulled out the race card". Especially since you seem to be intelligent.

I have seen more than one person in these forums resort to saying that a Person of Color "pulled out the race card", so what Im about to say isn't solely directed at you but I hope that you can hear what I'm about to say with an open mind.

Race is not a "card" that a person can whip out. Race is a part of a person's LIVED experience, a part of their lives, and unfortunately, oftentimes is a huge part of unfair, ignorant, and biggoted treatment that they receive from people who view their race as a "thing" that they whip out when they are trying to be "uppity" or "arrogant" or "overpowering" or (gasp) "too loud".

It is also incredibly disrespectful.

Sadly too, any argument you make using the "race card being pulled out" will get lost with folks like me who translate that as "white person who refuses to examine their racism or privilege".

M

Who is calling you names? Please show me, because I don't see it.

I see, you call me racist and sexist and now its personal because it affects you. Okie dokie. Are we supposed to exchange recipes or something?

Will I change my mind on the law...NO.

Will I keep my mouth shut....NO.

Will it piss you off......yep.

Life's a bitch sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 141117)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 141134)

With all due respect, I have a real problem when differing standards are applied to people based on skin color.

And amazingly that's just what this law is all about

So, from all of your previous posts in this thread, and now this post, I'm assuming you only have a problem when differing standards are applied to white people based on skin color, but not when those differing standards (based on skin color) are applied to a group to which you don't belong. Or really when equality is administered on differing levels based on skin color.

Also, no one called you A racist. They said the things you've said are racist. If you dropped the defensiveness and listened (instead of defending), you might hear *why* what you've said is racist (including 'pulling the race card'). But no, no one said, "Kobi's A racist".

Dylan