As to bed death (whether it be lesbian and/or butch femme or any other), I agree with AtLast, I think it has more to do with communication, willingness to keep an intimate relationship growing and thriving, and a missing emotional connection more than having to do with actual sex. Then there is just all the issues of life that have to be dealt with, which leave people with not a lot of time and energy.

Yup... and although most people don't want to face it, we do slow down as we age and sex is included in the slow down (so is a wonderful history of creativity). Plus, medications/disability can have an effect on libido. Although, I have to add that "seniors" are far more sexually active than "myth" dictates as well!! Ut, Oh, I feel an attack of ageism and able-body privilege (with coming over me..

And there are many more "measures" of sexual activity than penis-to-vagina methods. The fact is butch/femme cock follows a very straight, heterosexual mode of sexually interpretation. Which is why I personally use accessorize, accessory for butch cock for myself. And toy as well (although not much anymore). No, cock doesn't set me off into defensive feminist mode- I just figure we all have our own terms we prefer. And if a femme I am intimate with wants to call it a cock, I don't care! Our mutual pleasure and satisfaction is what counts

Although, I am fond of “Where’s the toy box, Babe, I want to pick something out?” Oh, Geez, I am not dominant enough, either, I bet. I get off on her (a femme) making decisions around sex! Damn, there goes that butch card, again. Sorry, I do tire of so damn many of the sexual parameters we seem to have.

Oye! Maybe my feelings have something to do with raising a heterosexual male through the teenage years… believe me, I really got tired of cock-centricity… dunno… maybe we should have a poll on this and see what other parents of male kid would say- with the inclusion of a trans related item… who knows….

I am not trying to be snarky, I really am trying to infuse humor into this conversation. When I am able to laugh at myself, I end up seeing things much more clearly, plus I stop taking myself so seriously which calms me down…. I really don’t have a problem with whatever and however anyone wants to embrace (or not) butch-cock or just plain cock. Just please don’t judge my own personal thoughts about it or give me another identifier to deal with! I am as much lesbian as I am butch.

I appreciate the gravity of this subject, but can I just say, there was no death in my bed this weekend :heartbeat:

Oh, and the point is? two lesbians, mutual gratification, no issue over who did what to whom or when and how and...........and it was real sex, without a real label I guess?

I don't want to pick on you, ALH. Your posts are usually so affirming, but this jumped out at me, too. The first two sentences of that paragraph remind me of a conversation I had with a lesbian acquaintance who was having trouble understanding why butches wanted to dress "like men". I took a deep breath and explained that butch women are no more trying to imitate men than men are trying to imitate butches. Women dress the way they feel comfortable, as do men, so why would a person assume that butch women are the ones doing the imitating?

When it comes to butch cock, why would butch/femme sex in which butch cock plays a starring roll be viewed as imitative of heterosexual sex? I'm a lesbian and that's how I have sex, so it's lesbian sex to me. Straight people can imitate us if they choose. That doesn't bother me a bit.

There is plenty of straight/heterosexual sex that goes beyond the recipe above as well.

Which for some reason reminds me of this song:

(warning - this is in no way work/family-appropriate. don't click on it if you're expecting it to be).

I'll interject a little something here on my philosophy on Butch/Femme sex.

I think Butch/Femme sex is super-hot, gender-bending, "Queer as Fuck", writing-our-own-rules stuff. I think that just because we "insert tab 'a' into slot 'b'" that it does not mean we are mimicking Het relationships or "Biblical" sex.

I also tend to embrace Butch Cock as an extension of the self - not an extension of "het", because when a woman straps on and fucks another woman, there isn't really anything "Het" about that in my book. That's two women fucking each other. (or in other cases masculine-identified folks fucking another -identified person)

I think that even if the "cock" looks like a penis that it doesn't automatically default to a "Het" experience. It's rubber or silicone or (if you're real lucky) Vixskin and hopefully will be driven by an insanely talented Butch who will fuck you senseless. It's no more "Het" to me than a bottle of lube or a butt plug or nipple clamps.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think of Butch Cock as a "toy" or as a "device" but I also don't assign "Het" to it since I think that most of the people who tend to use them are more than likely Queer on some level.

I'm super tempted to start a "Butch/Femme Myths" thread and might do that hoping that the folks in this thread won't take it as something icky. I do tend to think of the thought that "Butch/Femme sex follows a Het dynamic" as a myth and that it often serves to diminish our dynamic, make it invisible, or to deny that Butch/Femme is NOT about who's the "man" and who's the "woman" in our relationships.

Good discussion.

In my humble opinion, as long as our society will equate sex = only reproduction, we won't get out of the penis/vagina equation... of course, as a species we use sex, or should I say coitus, in order to reproduce, but sex, other tha coitus/penetration, is also a way to express other things... bonding, making social contacts, having pleasure... and even, unfortunatly, punishing others. "Non coitus" sex was also observed in other species like primates, dolphins, etc...

That is why when some people tell me, "but you don't really have sex because you are a lezzy"... I ask them, "well do you always get pregnant or does your gf gets always get pregnant when you have sex?"

If the answer is no, then I tell them.. "then you are not having sex either!!!!"

My two cents...

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no-true-scotsman"-like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts/invalidates the identities and sex lives of butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

(Just one example: Butch bottoms exist and they aren't any less butch for it. When you define butch-femme sex as involving a butch cock, it does feel like an attempt to invalidate butch bottoms and femme tops and switches).

Very interesting what gets responded to and what doesn't.

Anyway, I am a stone butch lesbian who has a cock not a dildo. I'm engaged in lesbian sex when I am using my cock or it's being pleasured or whatever. I am a lesbian having sex. Lesbians having sex where there is no butch cock involved are also having lesbian sex. Butches and femmes (whether they are lesbians or not) are having sex whether there is a butch cock involved or not. There are as many ways to have sex as a lesbian as anyone else having sex.

Nat, nailed it with post as far as I am concerned. You can't divide up lesbians and butch femmes based on butch cock- that's extremely sexist and narrow minded and inaccurate. It also does follow along heterosexual lines of thinking which is what I believe AtLast is referring to. Butch cock is not the center of the universe for butch femme sex, although many of us are rather fond of it as giver, receiver or both.

PS. I don't think of my cock as a dildo or a toy either, and I do ID as a femme and a lesbian.

When it's attached, it's part of me, it's an extension of me, it's this body/soul/brain cohesion thing and it's awesome. :)

Yes, Bulldog you're right---I live in Gay mecca San Francisco and meet and cross many communities with the Queer community. That said, there are plenty of lesbians in this town that do not like butch/femme folk and IN PART, that is how Butch/Femme Socials got started.

No, a butch (or femme) cock in one's relationship will not prevent lesbian OR butch/femme bed death. My point in saying that there is LESS bed death within our community again was from talking to those who "crossed over" from lesbian to butch/femme community, is from talking to various people who have done this. They found that the dynamic of butch/femme was vastly different than their lesbian life and more open to sex and the communication of sex.

Yes, I know there are those that don't make that distinction between lesbian and butch/femme, that they are lesbians AND butch or femme. Yes, I know that plenty of switches use dildos or their butch or femme cocks---and plenty that have fulfilling sew lives without dildos or cocks, not to mention have a variety of sexual activities. Plenty of lesbians and butch/femme folk do not like or enjoy penetrative sex with cock like instruments or even dildos in the shape of dolphins.

Yes, Bulldog I attended an event at a lesbian bar---and guess what, I wasn't looking at the lesbians in the bar. I wasn't noticing the similarities that we have as "sisters" in this community. I was tracking the butches and femmes. I am glad that you have not had a rough time in your lesbian community.

Rope--

Ok Rope,

the part in bold I disagree with. Thanks for the reply.

I understand why and how this sets you off- I was not really intending what I think you believe.

For the record- I enjoy it all and am a lesbian of the b-F variety. I get tired, however, of how we often put things in narrow contexts sexually. I do personally get tired of the word cock and it brings some very heteronormative things up for me. My main problem was with touting butch cock- or any cock- with lesbian bed death. I hate the phrase lesbian bed death too- it is belittling and I think (especially in most of this conversation), goes to the never ending comparison between lesbian and straight sex. Ie., all you need is a good lay- meaning a man with an attached penis plunged into your vagina.

No, my use of accessory items (and it doesn't stop with dildoes- they are not the only “toys“ around!), has nothing to do with cocks! Never has, never will. Anything I nickname, in fact has a clit as part of it. It is just important to me to own my being a woman and honoring the wonder of female sexual anatomy. Maybe because of the era I am from in which women were referred to as such things as frigid, non-sexual, not even supposed to be sexual beings, bad if they did, too good, if they didn't, shouldn't play sports because we might hurt our female body parts, kept from certain professions and jobs... on and on- I am just sensitive about this stuff. But, honestly, I my "toys" are of the feminine because of how I have integrated gender-bending in my life. I choose to "bend" to the female/woman side of the equation because there has been so much taken from me in the past for being a woman- and a masculine woman. I also am tired of the lesbian-phobia I see so much of on B-F sites (it is much less so on the Planet, however). It bothers and hurts me as a woman and a butch.


I absolutely apologize to you or anyone else if I offended you. I really was not intending this. I do have strong feelings about the female as well as lesbian sex. I know I can react differently to some of this stuff, but, to not be who I am as a butch woman and how I relate to sexuality as a person just isn’t something I can over look. But, I will try to use different wording if I return to the Planet in the future.

I have no personal negative judgement of how everyone else sees this- or what terms they want to use. I especially think there could be some sensitive things that trans folks could have around this.

The more I think about the butch-femme dynamic supposedly being more open to sex and the communication of sex, the more I disagree. In fact there appear to be far more "rules" to butch-femme sex and how it is supposed to be done and who is supposed to do what and what is supposed to be used (the almighty butch cock) than with lesbians (those not also identifying as butch or femme) where it's two women enjoying having sex together and where women are actually valued- as women and as sexual beings. I am a butch with a butch cock, but I really just have to shake my head over all of the perpetuation of lesbian stereotypes.