Butch Femme Planet - Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

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- - Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591)

I'd like to add that as a partner to an FTM that I often find myself performing the role of "social lubricant" (thank you to the person who reminded me of that) to his sober self.

I really find that different than speaking for him or being his supporting actress. I would like to call that being his wife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 130090)

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.

I did not use your kid, all i said in a (different)thread that wow he was turning 10 already.

That was NOT to get on your last nerve, since i seem to do that so well.

I never said we were tight, always the opposite.

I dont mean any disrespect and i did not say you were stereotyping ME, it was just in your example.

You can now leave me out of this conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 130187)

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat (Post 130186)

That has been my intention when I do this as well but I have found this is sometimes seen as ganging up. I think it's a great ally tactic when directed outside the community at/toward the powers that be but it can possibly lead to a greater us against them type divide when femme allyship voiced in the direction of one group ends up dominating those conversations. I haven't seen you do this but I know I have done it. I think it also may just polarize conversations when the femme gaze of sexual and emotional approval hovers within those conversations.

Maybe others discussing gender stuff are impervious to the pressure of those of the desired gender, but part of my own gender struggles has been the scary question of "can I be entirely authentic and still be desirable and loved?" because that was my own experience, I often wonder if the femme voice in threads regarding pronouns, inter-butch, butch-trans communications ends up raising the stakes and further polarizing those conversations.

Do you think the protecter thing in us is unbalanced because when we are out and about in real time we do have to be hyper aware and protective? Like the other day we were in the drug store picking up something and a cowboy spotted Cal and started posturing. Cal didn't notice but I did and I felt danger. So I put my arm around Cal and gently escorted us out of the store.

Stuff like that happens so much it is second nature. Because he hasn't yet had surgery I silently pray that he will be "Sir'd" at the same time he get's made so that we can get out of a situation safely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 130181)

I don't think Femme's have diverse pronoun usage to worry about. Or even so much diverse gender presentation. So we get a little taken for granted IMO. To me that translates into us doing a lot of work around making sure that the butches and trans folk around us are comfy. Over the last 5-7 years it has become kind of auto-pilot. That is where we get into trouble with laziness of language choices ya think?

I HAVE seen our counterparts care when it comes to things like oh say...Stone Femme. Even then the shit hits the fan and a consensus cannot be reached on a definition. My question to everyone is this: Do we need healing within the Femme community to the same degree or are we intertwined with the butch and trans communities?

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 130181)

Also, if you bind yourself with somebody in order to prove a connection with them you need therapy, not the label of an ally.

With that being said, I also think that it's a fine line between ally and appropriation.

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 130181)

Yes. Fences are so hard to climb, and the electric ones frizz your hair. Bridges on the other hand let you cross over and visit for a while. It's a tricky thing not to build fences when you think you are building bridges. One gives you a clear view of the other side and one blocks your view.

Let's say that Cal starts testosterone and I run around making rhoid rage jokes in all the threads. I am erecting fences, am I not? If instead I thoughtfully answer any questions that people might ask me? I am building bridges, right?

Or if Cal goes into a thread and speaks about his experience and T and then somebody disputes it? If I wait for Cal to come back in and answer I am building bridges. If I go in and say this is what Cal meant, and you all don't understand Cal blahblahblah.....I am erecting fences.

I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130218)

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental? :byebye:

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130218)

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental? :byebye:

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.

Aren't responsibility and influence light years apart?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130201)

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

Quote:

"Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130277)

Yes, The Arwen -- I was being funny about the Ornamental part of it. But not as much about the responsible for things because I see this all the time.

And yes, I think it is about the expressing Desire and rejecting or being disrespectful of the desires of others.

For instance, I know, because you have said over and over again on these boards, that you are not interested in certain things. That's cool, that's your personal set of Desires, but it is not everyones personal set of Desires. Your Desires are not better than mine, they are just different. And where it gets real sticky for me is where we start assigning rank to people on a scale that looks like this:

Feminine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Masculine (good)

Or even:

Masculine (bad) <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10> Feminine (good)

So, for me, and I am going to stick to this as a personal observation of the behavior of myself and others, we all share the responsibility of doing it to each other. It's not a Femme thing, it's a human thing. If you put a brick in that wall/fence, then take it the fuck out by reviewing and changing the behaviors and thought processes.

Kinda weirded out here, June. Not sure how my sexual preferences got wound up in this. I have never once said (although it's been extrapolated all over the place by those that never had the fucking respect to just ask me) that my non-preference to go down on a female lover made me better.

In fact, I can probably find where I've said that it made me worse or broken.

Now, I'm gonna tell you that this has really irked me because you got personal here. I'm going to take a breath and assume that you did so for a reason. However, my own personal hurt is really getting in the way of me seeing what that reason is.

I have never and will never say that someone who likes cunninglingus (receiving or giving) is worse or better than me. Simply different.

Now. If you want to make this about why I don't call myself a lesbian, let's go there. Because I have every right in the world to say that, don't I?

How on earth does my saying I don't like coconut diminish or lessen those who do? HOW?

I realize that you did not state what my preferences were, but I did because I don't much care for the hidden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 130191)

You have really got me thinking on this one, Superfemme. I think these types of situations in the context of the outside world may end up carrying over. When I look at my own experiences, I have definitely felt the need, the onus to be protective of the people I have been with when there is somebody scarily homophobic or transphobic bristling in the foreground. I think that may be part of my own hypervigilence and protectiveness. I need to think about this more, but my initial thought is that picking sides and/or championing a side within a butch/transguy context is an act which can polarize our community, whereas acting in a protective way within the heteronormative cis-centric outer world would actually be the right thing to do, especially if doing so may minimize very real risks like violence.

I recently watched a bunch of youtubes of abc's what would you do? series (thank you Lady Snow for posting those links), and I was really horrified to know exactly how many people will not bother to help somebody who is in need of serious help - including homophobic and racist verbal or even physical attack. I think I also read in another thread that you have yourself been in situations where an effective ally would have been handy.

What I got from watching those and reading your posts is that it must be somewhat ingrained in human nature not to help others when they need it and so I think part of being a good and effective ally is to be willing to stand up, support and defend others when they are attacked or in need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130311)

Arwen -- I did not speak specifically about what your preferences were, or mine, I was using "you" and "me" as an example, because we were interacting with each other. I was not inferring that you use that scale, or think your desires are better than mine or vice versa. And for the record, since we're oversharing here, I am not a huge fan of giving or receiving in that way, there's other things I like a lot more/better.

I'm really sorry you took that to be any kind of attack or negativity towards you personally, because that was not my intent at all. I was having a dialogue with you and using your questions as a jumping off point, not any kind of blame center. I think now, looking at my post, I needed to make a paragraph break before I laid out my little graph thingy, because it is not clear where I switched to talking about different desires and went into the graph that I was kind of done relating with you and moving on to another topic.

Gimme a hug.

Thank you, June.

This is obviously one of those triggers that I wasn't aware of or thought I'd addressed. I haven't apparently because that hurt bad enough to make me curse. :|

I appreciate your clarification a lot. And I will always give you hugs because I happen to like you a lot.

Now I get to go to work. Do you think I should tell them I haven't had cafFIEND since yesterday morning?

Nah. They'll be okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat (Post 130190)

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

Me too, except for the fact that my Femme friends have often acted as my social lubricant. heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130201)

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

Yes, but I don't think they carry the same *gender* connotations for us that they do for our butch/trans counterparts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130201)

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking. :)

Now why is it that the other side doesn't get those labels? Or that the labels are mocked? Are we really going to sell our selves so short to say that when we discuss ourselves we are "over talking"? When there are pages and pages of threads about butch and trans identities and that is ok? That is something we need to examine I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130201)

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

I think we appropriate these labels by losing ourselves to some extent. I have never EVER seen a trans guy question themselves and their identities once they started dating a Femme. Have you? I'd fall over if Cal woke up tomorrow and said to me...."Am I a Femme now"? Ha! No. What happens is Femmes struggle with "Am I straight now"?. Femmes also seem to go through the transition process with their beloved. Am I even remotely making sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130201)

Thought translation and Tarot Reading can't be that far off can they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 130206)

I think it makes sense. I think what you are saying is that you speak to them from your *me* place and don't try to super-impose your thoughts onto them as their own? I know this only because you've done it with me in real time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130218)

I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

Which in the long run doesn't really build a bridge. Or does it? What do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 130225)

I for one a uber grateful you started this thread. Please don't second guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen (Post 130230)

What if we have a Femme in Shining Armor complex and want to ride in on our noble steed and save the day kind of thing going one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 130261)

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
-----------

OMG. I've seen it too. I may have even done it to some degree. Because we get in there and he just freezes up. Not because I want to appropriate....

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

I love your honesty.

[QUOTE=June;130231]Well. We can start threads about anything, which I love. I read your OP yesterday, and then today, and I looked at the other posts, and *I* kept coming back to the same place. "Why am I, as a Femme responsible for the relationships the more masculine folks in this community have?"

I don't think it is a femme thing, I think it is a human thing. there is a kind of paradox that exists with the responsible thing: we are told we don't infulence others, everyone is responisble for themselves. If you let negative stuff bother you it is your problem. But, when we are nice, kind, gentle, accepting, that impacts those around us. everything runs good when people are good. So why, when people are mean do we want to say that should not impact others.
No matter how it should be in a perfect world, we don't live there. Our words and actions influence others. And yet in the end we are each responsible for our own selves. It is not simple or easy, it is complex and deep and full of complexities.

Common sense says that butches/trans impact femmes also, in both good and bad ways. So perhaps thinking about it in terms of humans and how we impact each other takes the "perceived femme responsiblity" out of it.

And really, I would say the same thing to everyone: Be who you are. There are always going to be people who don't like/accept you. You can not please everyone. So look for people who are accepting and kind. They can have any id, cause one's id is not what makes one a mean human. Mean humans are still mean when you strip everything else away.

I didn't come in here to waggle my finger at you, I came in to express an opinion. Besides, I know if I get that finger too close to your evil little mouth, you're gonna bite it off. <3

Quote:

Originally Posted by June (Post 130311)

Not to derail but I'd just like to say that I really appreciate this post June.

So often in an online setting we've been forced to settle for an atmosphere of do as I say, not as I do hypocrisy, and it is refreshing to see you say what you mean and mean what you say.

When the leadership here is willing to practice what they preach it makes us all willing to tow the line and sit up straight.

Kudos.