It's Federal law, but it happens..

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010814

Huge concern has been placed upon the access of drivers licenses and the "motor voter" laws made by Clinton. No one checks citizenship when they hit the "ok".

I am still not sure why non-citizens are given a drivers license without the pre-requisite drivers education courses we all had to take in high school.

I am not saying anything like toss em out. I am saying .. by all means make it easier to become a citizen. Have your background checked and sign in like my grandparents did at Ellis Island.

I was at the gym earlier this evening and caught a snippet on CNN about swastikas being smeared on the Arizona capitol building. I couldn't locate the story just now on the CNN website.

Any further developments?

it was, in BEANS--i think they're calling it graffiti.

This is such a derail, but after your last two posts, I'm getting the impression you're under the impression becoming a citizen is just a matter of a few forms, and then voila!

Am I misreading you?

Also though, when your grandparents came through Ellis Island there were racist laws in place ensuring we didn't let certain groups of people into this country.


Dylan Dyrailer

The latter is very true. Why so many people slightly changed the spellings of their surnames. I do not disagree.

My point is, we have made things so much more complicated by "disallowing" folks that we have woven a nasty web for ourselves to be free of. It could have been as simple as filling out a name/ origin/ parental info, etc. But now, folks have to jump through so many hoops to become "legal" here.,

The ironies of our "system" glare at every turn. And ya know.. sometimes things "are" just as simple as the stroke of a pen. Clinton stroked one to make DADT a law. Bush stroked one to go do some shock and awe. Why can't Obama strike one to say that was some bullshit?

It really should be as simple as a few forms... should it not? What do folks of foreign birth have to go through to prove themselves "worthy" ?

Not arguing... just trying to see stuff for what it is, like most everyone out there. Giving government the excuse of "it's more complicated than that" will do nothing but continue to allow them to oppress everyone fighting for a little piece of the pie.

The new brown voters are legal voters.........even the ones she tossed out were legal voters.....remember the hanging chads of FL and the purging of voter rolls in FL prior to the 2000 elections....same shit different state

As Corkey said.........non-citizens are not allowed to vote in any election anywhere in the country.

You don't have to take any kind of driver's education course to get a driver's license. (You took driver's ed so your parents would pay less than both arms and legs when they put you on their car insurance). You take a written test and a driving test. You pass both you get a license if you have proof of car insurance. What does citizenship have to do with a driver's license? They are separate things.

You don't have to have a driver's license to register to vote. If that was true most of NYC could not register to vote.

-----
DeanRobert............ya might want to go back and read more carefully.............I posted the link to the AZ legislature website that contained the official summary of the bill and you could also read the entire bill.

I find nothing at all in the legislation that has any merit at all...........nothing........nada.........immigrat ion is a federal responsibility.........

You have to be a citizen in Texas to get a license (you *might* be able to have a greencard and some other paperwork, but I know you have to have some sort of something from social security...was just at the DMV last week and overheard a whole conversation between DPS Lady and GuyInFrontOfMe), and if you're under a certain age, you have to take a driver's ed course and pass that class to get a driver's license.

We also now list your race on your DL


Dylan Dyrailer II

Actually as a resident of VA you do have to take drivers ed or wait til you are 18 to get a license. Sorry, you not being a resident wouldn't know that. and yes, higher insurance premiums are a punishment for not doing so.
Not saying you have to have a license to vote. Saying that with the passing of motor voter folks are automatically prompted to register to vote upon receipt of a license. That is not checked for citizenship at the level of the DMV office. Besides, if someone has a valid address, it is passed. We had many many cases of it happen in Richmond. So, please do not tell me what you have read when I know what I have seen. Up close, in person.


It's kind of hard to say what someone in a state feels that you don't live in and experience everyday. Reading the legislation doesn't always reflect the feelings of all the residents of that particular state.

Honestly, though. I would probably faint from shock if so much as ONE white person gets randomly asked to show their papers.

Well - maybe in the early days of the legislation they'll ask a few white people. Make a good show of it. "SEE? We asked that there redhead to show us his birth certificate!" But that'll die down quickly.

I bet I, as a pasty red-headed Canadian with freckles, could probably go to AZ and stay there indefinitely and -never- get noticed. Sure, I've got a funny accent - but I'd just tell people I'm from Wisconsin.

and the last time I went to renew my license and my birth certificate was question cause the damned "embossed" symbol was worn thin due to keeping it in my wallet for 40 friggen years.. I did. I figure if I was born on a naval base in SC and have to show 87 pieces of proof then everyone should. I also think it is ridiculous.

better not wear your canadian shoes!!!
 

bian bilbray (R-Ca) says it's not racial profiling it's SHOES:

MATTHEWS: Like what, like what? Give me a non-ethnic aspect that would tell you to pick up somebody.

BILBRAY: They will look at the kind of dress you wear, there’s different type of attire, there’s different type of…right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes. But mostly by behavior it’s mostly behavior, just as the law enforcement people here in Washington, DC does it based on certain criminal activity there is behavior things that professionals are trained in across the board and this group shouldn’t be exempt from those observations as much as anybody else.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/22/...y-immigration/

Yeah, finally. Old dogs don't so much like the new tricks. I could never figure out why when we hand over our old license THAT didn't count as a source of ID.. WTF? YOU issued it! Ya know?? der...

and that's in my beloved california...

i have to get outta here but i was recalling prop 187 in california from years ago, i think it was similar.. gray davis? will be back later :)

I've had a driver's license for so long it's scary.

Jess........I assumed you were talking adults concerning driver's ed courses based on your entire post.

When I moved back to NM for a while, I took my CA license into DMV with a bank statement to prove my residence, took the written test and got a license.

When I moved back to CA (4 or 5 years later), I went to DMV, showed my NM license and a bank statement and utility bill....took the written test and they gave me a CA license with the same DL number I had when I had lived in CA before...........seems you are in the CA DMV computer forever....laughin....

I think it was a tad easier prior to around 2005 ( or there abouts) when they stopped using SSN as your DLN. DLN are now issued that aren't SSN. It was about this same time that proof of ID became more detailed. At least, in my state.

Found this article on Huffington Post this morning:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_553351.html

Yeah really..

Thanks-

Interesting take on this in relationship to Barry Goldwater. Police State rings true for me...

Right. This is why I think VA along with the other states who used to use it changed their practices.

Heard today on NPR:
 

Cowboy Hitler Arpaio is certainly in favor of it.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Sue, but that just isn't true. NOTHING will protect Arizonans who have the wrong skin color or last name---nothing. They will be racially profiled just as they have been for the past century.

The only difference is that now it's legal, so the profiling will step up several notches.

I don't remember now who it was that said Arpaio's run as sherrif is done, but be CAREFUL what you ask for. He could be the next governor. Any state that could elect Evan Meacham could EASILY elect a rhinestone cowboy who says he'll make everyone "safe." He keeps getting re-elected as sheriff because the people who bother to vote believe him, so yanno... he's in your future unless a pretty huge group of people gets it together and votes him out.

i read the Linda Greenhouse piece. Thank you, Medusa. i kinda like the idea of everyone who wants to protest the law wearing a button that says, "i may be illegal."

Do you think people are going to expect police to stop folks randomly? If that starts, there are going to be some violent encounters -- and for what?

That was interesting -- in the article -- about how little stood between this country educating students who aren't citizens and not. So many of my students are not citizens. One of my seniors who isn't a citizen is going to graduate with a diploma this JUne. This is a Special Ed kid -- from Richmond. His brother got senselessly murdered earlier in the year. Not the easiest life. AND he has a learning disability. And guess what? He's graduating. AND he will become an auto mechanic. We should be grateful that he's here. How many of us could have lived his life and done all the has done so far even?

Here Comes The Fun Times!
 

Please Join!
 

In response:

Apretty: You stated that illegal immigrants contribute over a billion dollars a year to the states economy. I could not find that statistic anywhere today but I did find that illegal immigration costs the state over a billion dollars a year in our criminal justice system alone. From the time they are arrested to the day they are deported it is handled in the following way. Once arrested an immigration hold is placed, meaning that no bail or bond can be posted, they are kept in our county jail. If they are found guilty and sentenced with jail time, they must serve that time in county, state, or federal prison. Once their time is served they are then released and re-arrested by immigration officers and the deportation process is then started. This process can take up to 2 years and in some cases longer to complete.
All of their expenses are paid for by our tax dollars. The expenses are housing in the jails, food medical, dental, eye, mental health care, clothing and 97% of the time their attorney fees. 2% don’t fight deportation and 1% pay for their attorney.

SB1070 is not entirely a new bill it amends portions of already existing statutes on the books that have been there for years now. They are simply adding to these statutes. I found a web site today that will help those of you that wish to understand this bill in its entirety with what is being added and what is already a state statute. If you will click on the below web link you will see the entire bill. What is printed in back is already state statute, what is highlighted in green is the statute that is be amended; the blue is the actual SB1070 bill.
What can be contested in the courts is written in blue, the rest of the bill that is in black can not be contested. Those statutes are already law and have been contested and found to be constitutional.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

So, I ask you the following question:
Where were your voices and protests when the original statutes were drafted and signed into law?

A new poll that was taken over the past few days sense the signing of this bill into law, has 70% of the people in the state for this bill and 60% polled nation wide are for or agree with this bill.

If you go back and look at the voting history of this state you will find that it is and always has been a republican state. When it comes to voting the republicans will vote, when it comes to a controversial bill the republicans COME OUT and vote in large numbers.
Our mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon today announced that he will file a suit in the courts that will be financed and paid for by private donations and if need be out of his own pockets. Many are already stating that if he does this, his political career here in this state will be over.

And yes I am being one sided on my posts simply because both sides of this issue needs to be put out there and not just the alarmists side. {And I use the word alarmists with a heavy heart.}

As I said before Arizona needs some kind of reform, Right now I am neither for this bill nor am I against this bill; I am standing on the line and waiting for something to make me take a stand to one side or the other.
I have friends that have been stopped by the police, and swear to racial profiling and have done so for many years now. I used to travel the I-10 south to Tucson and then back to Phoenix and did so for about 2 years on a monthly basis. I drive a F250 work van that has two seats and is sectioned off with a metal divider, the windows on the back and side doors have metal security mesh on them. I would have to say that more times than not I was pulled over by either a immigrations and border patrol officer or a state police officer and asked if they could search the back of my van and would I open the doors for them. They always stopped me for illegal positioning of a license plate. {It’s in my back window and not on the bumper.} After the first time I was stopped, I knew each time there after what was happening. Was I profiled? Yes I was. Did I mind? No I didn’t because I had nothing to hide. Did I ever receive a citation for my license plate? No I didn’t. hummmmm go figure!!

P.S. BIT: You are so right about sheriff Joe, he may just be our next governor. Boy, did you hit the nail right on the head there.

DeanRobert:

1. i'm guessing you get to stand comfy in the middle, lacking an opinion on this bill because you're nice and white. i'm right, right?

2. if you'd read this thread in it's entirety you'd notice links to facts and statistics that detail where immigrants contribute to society. you asking me to do the work for you suggests that you're either lazy or don't care to know what your opposition says with regards to immigration. (plus, the thread isn't even 10 pages.)

3. any statements you make with regards to immigrants costing the 'criminal justice system' a dime would be solved by, wait for it, DECRIMINALIZING the color of brown skin. there ya go, billions saved.

4. i do understand this bill in it's entirety, i have read this bill.

5. see page 1 with regards to your 70% statistics.

6. your presenting one side (while ignoring the issue of RACIAL profiling) because that's the choice you're choosing to make.

7. it would have been nice if there were more 'alarmists' in nazi germany, before they started shipping off jews to 'work camps'

8. being profiled because you drive a shitty car is NOT THE SAME/can't even compare with being profiled because of your RACE. did i just have to spell that out?

9. curious as to your TWO posts on this site, both in this thread, and your recent join-date.

10. i'm sensing that we've met before but it obviously wasn't a venue where we discussed immigration, you would have remembered that learning opportunity and introduced yourself. :)

DeanRobert,

Thank you for providing the link for the SB1070. You are correct about the process for handling persons arrested for being undocumented and awaiting deportation. I don't know about the cost dollars. But I do know the costs of individuals awaiting deportation are paid by federal funds. These persons are generally housed in county jails and the revenue received by the county for these person is 2-3times the amount allotted for maintaining the average inmate. They are put in general population. This makes it profittable for the jails and the counties to house a 'federal prisoner'. Is this a coincidental to increase raids and arrests of illegal immigrants while budget cuts hit law enforcement? There is a high risk for the Detention Officers because no one knows how violent the inmate is or what affliations that these individuals have in jail with them. There is a risk for those here seeking a safe, quiet life thow in with those who are violent criminals. The jails are full of 'people of interest'. There is alot more layers to the recent bill.

Just saying...

Just to clarify, cuz I read your post several times and have had trouble getting what your driving at.

It sounds like you're saying that part of this bill is a conspiracy on the part of the local law enforcement + government to get more money for their jails out of the federal government - because the federal government gives money to the little jails that our housing undocumented people and gives them MORE money than what they would to house someone who is in jail for another reason.

Am I correct?

You know I find one thing just totally unbelievable that is the way people just attack one another solely based on the color of their skin. When I look at someone of color I do not see hatred, I see a person.

To answer your questions Apretty:{ not that I have too.}

1. I do have opinions about this bill. I choose not to voice them here. I will choose a side when I see or hear something that brings all of this together for me. As to the color of my skin does that rally matter to you? Your skin color does not matter to me. This comment is totally racist to me, unbelievable.
2. No where in my post did I ask you to do any research for me. I am very capable of doing this on my own.
3. You use the wording “brown skin” maybe your so upset about this simply because the highest populace of illegal immigrants in the united states is of Hispanic decent and crossed of the border in one of the 4 border states. No other comment is required here.
4. I never once said that you had not read this bill nor did you not understand it.
5. Been there done that.
6. If you had read my post I do believe this bill will lead to racial profiling there are bad apples in all the police departments.
7. agreed too
8. First off, the shitty car that you refer too in my company vehicle. And yes I was profiled during that time maybe not for the color of my skin but by driving a vehicle that is often used in smuggling illegal’s.{ look at the shuttle companies that were just busted here. They used the same type of vehicle.}
9. I just found this site so hence the join date. Which I mind you that date is before this subject ever became an issue. As to the two posts here. This is a thread that I felt I wanted to post in. Knowing that what I was posting I would be attacked; just as you are doing to me now. Jezzz thought I was welcome to post in any of the threads. You have the right to your opinion just as I do to mine. So at this point lets agree to disagree. I will not allow you to bait me into a fight of words and anger.
10. ROFL, yes we have met and yes we did discuss many of your political views that night. In fact you were in a very heated discussion with my partner that night.


You didn’t answer my question in my post. So I will ask it again.

Where was the “brown skinned peoples” voice when the original statutes were being written and signed into law?

The people in Arizona that are awaiting deportation trials are housed in a privately run prison in Florance. Yes the state receives federal funds, and whrere to the federal funds come from, us the taxpayer.

i'll respond to all your post tomorrow, but i am incredulous about this thought process, 'where was the brown skin peoples' voice...'

so what? you keep down a people long enough and they should just get used to it, move aside, what? i can't understand how what *was* then oppression, makes what is oppression NOW, okay? would you walk me through that, please?

thanks.