I had no idea they used to be a recording company! I'd actually love to hear more about that
(Going to Google!)

This what I used to know them as. And if you scroll down to the album covers, I think I owned most of those at one point.

This was very cool to find.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Rider-Cris-Williamson/dp/B0006SST0Y"]This [/ame]was my first and I still listen to it somewhat regularly.

Between the bookstores I ran and the concerts/festivals I was a part of, I worked with both Olivia and Ladyslipper for a good number of years. Some amazing women doing some amazing things at the time.

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

I absolutely agree with this.

Having read all the previous posts...
 

I wanted to add that cruising had been my choice of vacation venues for several years...Alaska, Eastern and Western Carribean, Nova Scotia, Mexico, Bermuda. My partner at the time and I researched carefully the cruises we felt we would be most comfortable on, the cost, the ports of call, etc. We looked in depth at Olivia as we had been Robin Tyler supporters for years through her music promotions and such. Something kind of got lost in the mix over the past few years, though. We had always used the same travel agent that knew us well. My partner had some masculine traits that were certainly noticable to the general public. Our travel agent suggested we go with a mainstream cruiseline as Olivia had become more and more 'selective' of their potential patrons. Not only was our agent inferring issues with the butch-femme dynamic but other underpinnings were alive and well, too. I could not leave that alone, of course. After some investigative delving we learned that Olivia - and I would say perhaps even the more affluent attracting cruiselines (Seven Seas, Seabourne, Celebrity, Cunard) - researched their potential passengers as to income level, credit worthiness, asset assessments, the overall 'value' of the person. We felt we were being scrutinized to buy a multimillion dollar home. No way for those myriad of reasons could we support such business practices. We have cruised Norwegian Cruiselines and found them to be more than accomodating...however, at this point I would only opt to support any business/venue that keeps in mind two premises: 1) one that would welcome ALL of our community and, 2) my safety.

While cruising can be the ultimate vacation for many...time has made me think differently. The cruiselines we did use welcomed us, my elderly mother, my crotchety 84 year old Aunt, and my 94 year old well traveled Aunt - yes, that flew in a helicopter and landed on Mendenhall Glacier. I would not ever want to lose those memories.

Now our environment is more in peril. I look for vacation venues that do not damage the environment as well as a means to somehow support all of my community.

Now we have folks such as Medusa and Jack who have been visionaries and provided a welcoming, safe space for all of us. The cost was minimal compared to any cruise. No, I did not attend the Reunion but I have lived vicariously through the photos and the posts. I am not going to miss 2011, either.

I can only hope MountainStar has a safe and memory-filled cruise. I just have to say that we have a gift of community being practically given to us with the support of this site. We are welcomed to this TABLE...let's enjoy this banquet.[/COLOR]

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

Maybe it's just me, but I see quite the few butch women in their videos. In keeping in mind that Olivia is "women's space" and was set up like many other women's spaces to provide safe space for women, I think they have been very successful in doing so.

I don't get being non-inclusive to transwomen. ( My definition is an MTF who lives life as a woman). I do however clearly get and support their right to exclude men. ( Trans or otherwise). I know this is not the intention of this thread to dissect the politics of gender othering, however since everyone else is tossing out their opinions, I felt safe in doing likewise. I don't have any problem with excluding men from women's space.

Don't know if the video will post, if not here is the link to their videos. There are a lot of butch women there, whether they embrace the term "butch" or not, they are clearly masculine presenting women, just not "male" presenting. To deny women only space is blatant sexism, in as much as supporting trans rights or lesbian rights, I can not do so at the expense of denying "women" space.

Hell, I would love to do the resort vacation ( not necessarily cruise) but until we can afford to do so and make arrangements for the boy to vacay with grandparents at the same time, it is not on our list.



http://www.olivia.com/Travel/experie...hmb_cruise.jpg

http://www.olivia.com/Travel/default.aspx

*I* for one am glad that I am part of a site and community that is not going to hood wink me and that will have gatherings that are inclusive to all genders in the spectrum!!!


What a great fucking thing to be part of!!!

Thank you BFP!!!



:praying:

Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!! :)

My wife and I have been on two Olivia Cruises in the past... this century! I have to say that this was our experience as well... I wore suits and ties at night and she wore dresses... We saw many many masculine presenting Butches and no one was harrassed at all in our experience. I think Olivia needs some serious PR upgrades if they want to look toward a solid future in providing cruises to our community... and keep up with a younger generation... where clearly there is a deeper and broader acceptance of our rainbow of gender expression...

That in mind, we are not really interested in Olivia in the future. I think if we went on a cruise again we would look at Sweet Cruises based on some things that were posted here as well as the fact that they do good things as they are cruising... It is not simply about consumption but about giving back... and I like that a lot... With that being said... we have a lot more on our travel agenda over cruises...

Aside from the whole issue of what Olivia does or does not do?
I have to admit I am not even a smidge interested in going on a cruise. (cruising in the queer sense is not off the list though).

Here is one of the reasons for my disdain:

Not to get too detailed.
I agree with what Medusa said
I personally know many very masculine looking Butches that have had a great time on Olivia Cruises
I remember the Music Label very well, an ex of mine had a record with them.
Myself, I would and have criticized any BF site that wanted to create a "site event" around an Olivia cruise, because it would not be a place all would be welcome and BF sites tend to be more diverse than Lesbian events. Oh and because frankly the expense would also cut out so many people that it would be insulting, imho.
Would i go on an Olivia Cruise?
Someone else wants to foot the bill, sure ;) Ok its not really my :tea: :)
It s way down on my list of things I would like to do.. But that's any cruise, any where..Just not my idea of fun...
Feel free to send me free cruise tickets, along with the air fare to get there..and change my mind ;)
and Morning Star, have a great time ; )

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

How are they going to know you are male identified butches?

You say you have no desire to be in female only space. That makes sense to me. It seems male identified people wouldn't want to go but are complaining that they are being excluded. That doesn't make sense to me.

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

I don't plan on going on an Olivia Cruise anytime soon. If I did it would never cross my mind that I would be turned away. If someone wants to pay for transportation to the ship and pay for my ticket I will put it to the test.

I already said I think the way Blaze was treated was rude. Blaze was part of a group of friends that included at least one FTM that was turned away. I don't think they should have been treated rudely.

I have been a lesbian for over 30 years and also I am butch. My experience DOES tell me where I am or am not welcome. Have I ever had a lesbian been rude to me? Yes. I have also have straight people be rude to me, bisexuals, transpeople, genderqueer people, etc etc. I've had many a gay male waiter be very patronizing and sexist to me at gay male owned restaurants. I could go on. Most people I encounter- whatever their gender and sexual orientation may be- are nice and treat me well.

I really don't care if people want to go on an Olivia Cruise or not. It's not on my short list.

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.

So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!

More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

I said the way Blaze and his friends were treated was wrong several times. How many times do I have to say to qualify as being outraged. I never said it was ok and I'm not defending the cruise line. The cruise line targets lesbians.

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

Right here:

If you weren't trying to shut the evil non lesbian down - what WERE you trying to accomplish, exactly?

Anyway, because I like Medusa (and ONLY because I like Medusa) I am going to just completely ignore you now.

I have never said or implied anything even remotely close regarding the part of what you said in bold. I feel that is a huge exaggeration and has nothing to do with anything I have said. I have never said lesbians can do no wrong or that Olivia Cruises is perfect. I also haven't charged anyone with being a lesbophobe in this conversation.

I don't think ANYONE should be treated badly at their docks. Some of the communication coming from higher ups is also troubling. Then there was a statement from I believe their Vice President on another butch femme website saying something completely different. That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color and it feels very much the same way. Kicked out, judged harshly based on outward appearance. Forget what is on the inside and one's actions.

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

I do agree it's not the responsibility of a site owner to divulge the identities of everyone, however I don't know why someone planning a butch femme event would book a cruise on a lesbian cruise ship. If there was a cruise planned for trans people I don't think it would be appropriate for me to go as part of a butch femme party on board because I would feel I was intruding on trans people's space who were expecting to go on a cruise with other trans people. A ship is kind of different than say a hotel.

I think the Olivia Cruise line staff needs a lot of training on gender identities and issues for sure. I also understand many have connections to the lesbian community who themselves are not lesbian and do want to participate in lesbian events at times and I do think that's great. I do also support woman's only space. So how this all gets resolved is hard to say but I do think you make good points.

Thank you for the dialogue Greyson. I do always enjoy conversing with you.

Originally Posted by BullDog http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

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NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.