MTFs and FTMs are human beings (not caveats or special categories) and they are lesbians if that is how they choose to identify. That's why I dislike your definition of lesbian based on anatomy. That's why MTFs aren't welcome at MichFest. Nobody qualifies or is disqualified based on what they have or don't have downstairs.

Wow!
 

So now we're gonna "other" Trans folk? Really? Are we really going to be ugly? WTF? I don't understand why the continued erasure, they're LESBIANS cause that's their IDENTITY! Is it that difficult to grasp?

Identity categories need to be porous. Otherwise they are another excuse to police and oppress. Rigidly defining identity categories is a classic, classic form of oppression among members of a group. It's not the point. How useful IS it to have a definition that is completely consistent? Not at all. Not unless you are interested in excluding people or in treating some members differently.

On the other hand, how useful is it to have a definition that is so fluid and porous that no one knows from minute to minute what is meant by a term? It's quite the conundrum when we talk about "members" of something but no one can agree on what that something is. Maybe "exclusion" isn't necessarily the automatic perjorative we assume it to be. We aren't all Polish either. Though I suppose we all can become Polish once we know the criterion.

Oh how exciting to look in on the thread I started and see 7 pages already! Woohoo :)

Okay so now I've read through it and maybe most of it is off-topic, but I do love you contentious people. <3

I also feel much like dykeumentary posted - we are not the actual problem even when we fight tooth and nail with each other over stuff.

I don't think every butch has an especially pronounced feminine side, just like I don't think every femme has a pronounced masculine side. However, I am a femme who enjoys my masculine side and hates to feel shamed or squashed or excluded for not fitting some imaginary femme mold.

I also love me some butch pride where it applies. I'd hate to see butches excluded from butchness by people in our community with narrow views of what butch is.

A long time ago on a site far away, a self-identified butch told me that she wore women's underwear because it fit her and from time to time she enjoyed wearing lipstick. This was a really neat butch - cute, smart, thoughtful, etc. and she was a butch - no mistaking that. But she also said she would NEVER admit to these facts about herself online, as she would no longer be considered butch should she do so. I puzzled over that for a bit - back then I was still a baby femme and didn't really understand much about how gender pressure happened. But over the years, I've seen some really awesome self-identified butches hide their girlier qualities for fear of ridicule and I've seen some butchy people avoid b/f space and identity due to what are perceived as rigid definitions - while at the same time feeling isolated by non-b-f lesbians who often really don't know quite what to do with a butch or a femme - the loudest of these often being the most unwelcoming voices. And so with slices from both sides, these folks remain in the desert - deprived of the comradery, the shared knowledge, and even the bickering that we get to indulge in. I personally think that's a pity.

Change ....
 

Words have an original meaning and then may have evolved into a broader
or narrower meaning. We, as humans, recognize that things have changed
over the course of time. I think as caring, thinking, compassionate people,
it would serve all of us well to embrace the ever-changing meaning of words in
our own community.

While I appreciate everyone's input into any conversation, I have to say
the intent of some seems more combative than constructive.

To quote my dad, "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one"

That being said....I'm enjoying this discussion even though it has gone
wildly off-course.

If someone feels the need to judge me.....
I hope it is for my intent instead of poor word choice.

Isn't it possible to have this conversation without imputing other peoples' "intent", particularly a negative intent? A benefit of doubt might prove more

Threads getting off topic is normal here, but is anyone else wondering why there aren't more butches in here talking about aspects of femininity? To me that is what is most striking.

I tried to delete my post but wasn't quick enough. I just don't want to go there. Apologies to all.

You talking to me?
 

I was merely stating the way the situation seems to me.

Also, I am fairly sure that is acceptable language to use.

If it isn't, I'm sure someone will let me know if I have violated TOS.

I suspect that there is a high probability that the answer to my question is "yes".
However I'm ok with the response.

Is there perhaps a level of exposure here that doesn't seem worth the risk?

Nat, I don't think that there is one single answer, but I tend to think it is more that many butches fall through the cracks and don't feel they fit in too well in BF online communities (mostly due to whole butch scale thing) than they are sitting here reading and wanting to post and are afraid to. But, no one answer fits all.

*sigh*
 

There are as many ways to express ideas as there are people expressing them.

If so, I think that's unfortunate. The community suffers and so do individuals who might feel excluded unnecessarily.

My ex identified as butch. She wore mascara and eyeliner...more than I did. This was normal to her and she felt very attractive when she did...did some people have a problem with... I guess so, but that just due to there ideals of what butch looks like or how they like it to look. It's not common but you do what makes you feel good and she could have cared less what anyone felt or thought. No clue if she had an inner struggle with it but I doubt it.

Be you, we don't have to be the same.

Yes, I agree Nat. I have known butches personally who did not feel they fit in. Then again, some of them also are not real internet types. They might just spend a few minutes online or maybe play arcade games, then they are off to spend time with family and such.


I do hope people who are here feel comfortable talking about various aspects of their gender. I do love to hear about it.

Wait wait wait wait….in my understanding, gender ID and sexual orientation are two separate things……which means that transgender folks should have the right to a sexual orientation, which could possibly be lesbian…….si o no?

Yes that is what I was saying. Anyone who says they are a lesbian, is a lesbian. People have different reasons for iding that way.

The concept of butch femininity is interesting and even more importantly I am quite happy of how the posts evolved into something that I believe has been simmering for long time within the LGBT . The good, bad and ugly of it all in one thread. One thing I can not stand is the extreme extent of political correctness practically causing paralysis in our inability to discuss things openly and without perceiving harmful intent.

Some great posts from Miss Tick, Kobi, HB for example. But there are too many points to address, but fundamentally the unrest from within the ‘community’ and use the term loosely is due combination of ambiguous definitions/IDs and the battle to be all inclusive. This is a situation that is not reserved for online community only I personally witnessed and experienced in real world as well.

I never liked ID - Butch in my past for primarily the same reasons Miss Tick outlined (1st post). It was and some ways remains to mean ‘male’ vs masculine. The patriarchal dominance was not something I wanted to automatically embrace at the risk of leaving my equal matriarchal strengths behind. For me, my femininity is the ability to embrace and utilize my masculinity however I please, while remembering and loving - I am female. We all posses both energies within us. I enjoy the masculine elements that surface, but I still buy women’s clothes along with some male clothing, because I want to and I can.

Our biggest umbrella is that we are human. There are many (perhaps too many) subcategories and with each addition the risk increases marginalization. We debate/discuss the IDs that exist and continue create alphabet soup of new IDs because we don’t like how one sounds or means (I am guilty of this myself). We have become our worst enemies :slapfight:. I’ll be a bit of devil’s advocate. :grindevil:

Since there is no clean, concise way to define butch/femme (lines have become so blurred-maybe meaningless) why do we continue to use them?
What exactly is a Butch or Femme? A definition that can be universally applied with little personal preferences?
If lesbian is woman who is sexually attracted to other women - Is a FTM a lesbian? Is a Trans a lesbian?
Can being inclusive really exist without some layer of discrimination? I do not mean in a extreme hate context? But if we claim inclusive what does that mean?
If we have ‘spaces’ is that not a layer of discrimination? Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe you can claim inclusivity without excluding somewhere/someone unintentionally or intentionally. But I do believe in ‘spaces’ and they should be supported.
EX:
Main Group of Meteorologist.
Sub-Group A: Common strait: Building miniature structures out of match sticks.
Sub-Group B: Common Strait: Dress in Gothic.
Sub-Group C: Common Strait: Fascination with tall people.
Yes odd example - I am just picking random straits that pop into my mind ;).

If I relate to only one group. I can be curious, maybe fulfil my curiosity and ask questions from the other 2. Interact etc, but must I include them in a space I made for the group I relate to?

The real issue is how or who defines that space to ensure it does not border towards hate. That is not as easy as one can imagine - so we often prefer to think of ways to be more inclusive.
I am not asking for proof of support or anything. I posing these questions as food for thought :thinking:, because the less we can define things properly it is unlikely we can come together. I may not agree with you on some or many points, but how you behave towards someone is the cornerstone for me on the likelihood of the chance to move forward.

The irony is for most people; the more things change the more they stay same.

Lesbians who date FtMs and call themselves lesbian
 

This planet is my big opportunity to explore my feelings about IDing as lesbian when I was dating an FtM…..so thanks to everybody who talks openly about that. No more shrinking planets, please….

lamuymuyfem, good to hear. Whatever feels good to you and makes you feel comfortable in your skin. That is what is important. Welcome to BFP.

Holy shit.

Guess what Kobi, if someone says they are a lesbian and wants to participate in lesbian events and community I am not going to slam the door in their face. I welcome them.

I seriously find your post to probably be the most bizarre thing I have ever seen in my 13 years online.

Just shaking my head.

Othering
 

I don't know who *we* is for you, and no, I don't just *think* it's happening ------IT IS happening. I am not sure how you aren't seeing that. it's been quoted and addressed.


As for disrespect, negation, lesbian phobic, homophic buncha bullshit, does that apply to you as well? Or are you placing that on just certain people?

Thank you ahead for clarifying..

I am the most lesbian phobic person in the history of the universe. LOL never thought I would be called that. Seriously so fucked up all I can do is laugh.

In case anyone is confused I am a lesbian.

No on is baiting
 

Now see I don't believe anyone is baiting you, what I am reading is you want to pontificate and point fingers and police who gets to go where, and when you are asked why it's ok for you to do it, you deflect, get upset, flounce out and so on.

So no Kobi no one is baiting you, you come in here and call people homophobic, lesbian phobic. wait, let me go quote you so I am not making stuff up


You Said



Originally Posted by Kobi View Post



"This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community. "
--------------------------------------------------------

Does that include you? Because from where I sit, it should, because you, you Kobi have all those attributes that you just accused people in this thread of having.


So no I am not baiting I am just wondering if you include yourself in that, and if not, why? What makes Kobi *better*?

ID's and their meanings change over time. Yes, ID's must have some meaning, and in order to mean anything, they must exclude some possibilities -- Kobi's cat, straight cis men -- but they must not be cohesive and water-tight. I learned that from reading Judith Butler. There is no need for them to be cohesive and water-tight. We as a culture and sub-culture have a working understanding of what an ID means, an understanding which is being negotiated all the time. That's just the way it works. We don't all vote on some definition, write it somewhere, and then give out cards to those who qualify.

Currently, we are trying to change who gets included, for example transwomen. Also, culture workers and activists, as well as allies, are having a conversation with the dominant culture about what it means to be a lesbian. In general, we are trying to remove pejorative associations from the ID. We also struggle not to make the ID seem all white, all middle class, etc. An effort to codify an ID is usually just a way for people who are defending the status quo to exclude others who are challenging their power within a community -- meaning white, privileged, and cis lesbians.

Cats and straight cismen are certainly not Lesbians but women are if they love and fuck other women or fuck Queerly.

Here is where it gets sticky for me. When we start to say that "MTFs can be a Lesbian" in the same sentence as cats being a Lesbian, the separatist, transphobic slip of misandry *and* misogyny shows.

When we start to police who is a woman, we negate not only other women but we negate our OWN ability to love the woman who we are within ourselves. Think about it, if we are determining who else is a woman by sex organs and chromosomes, a vast number of women who have had hysterectomies and such are now, apparently, no longer women.

Why is "Lesbian" important to fence off if Butch or Femme or Trans is not?

I'm one of the butches that is staying out of this thread. I don't like arguing and going back and forth with name calling and accusations and whatever else there is going on in here yada yada yada.

I tend not to read things the way others do, I just read it and move on to the next post.

Curious
 

But you didn't, you posted in it, so that kinda negates your statement no?

BTW there is no name calling going on, would you mind showing us a post where that happened?

^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

I used to have lots of internet arguments. Lately I just tend to state my piece and move on. Just having the record of different experience seems to be the real meat to the threads on this and other forums. We really don't all have to agree. I did post this in the butch zone because it was a question for butches. I'm curious regarding the plethora of potential butch responses and would like to see the contention over other subjects move elsewhere as I suspect it's silencing to a possibly important dialog that could really benefit us all to read.

I may be wrong but I don't think I am. But didn't someone call Tapu a crackpot?

Thoughts
 

I really feel that the conversation should be allowed to flow organically, it will eventually either be resolved, people will talk, evolve, but it's organic and no one is being to overly gross,

It's been painful yet great to see people's brain juices flow, and it's different people sharing their stuff not just 3 or 4.

Not that you care what I think, it's your thread, but I really wanted you to know that it's important what is happening.

Butler calls these "intense disavowals" and says they are cruelties that we visit on ourselves. They repudiate the other in order to create a precise definition. But there is rarely a clean line between ourselves and others, as you note.

An example: When femmes defined ourselves in opposition to straight women, those of us who were once straight women were disavowing ourselves and our pasts. Some people think of their straight pasts as a time when they just did not know themselves as queer. But not all femmes do. Some of us WERE straight at some point. Some live as straight women now, and still ID as femme.

You have to leave the edges blurred or you will exclude people you may not want to. You will also repudiate allies and even parts of yourself. And you waste your time policing boundaries, which is really just code for a struggle for dominance within a group.

Yes. I did.

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

When someone identifies as a lesbian it is not "anything goes." If it resonates and they want to participate then they should be welcomed. If it really isn't genuinely a part of who they are it is going to fade away, but really why should I care as long as they respectful and get along? And people figure things out as they go along, that's great too. I am not threatened by others who might be different than me being lesbian. Why should I be?

When I was in my early 20s living in Santa Cruz, CA there was a male named Michael who id'd as lesbian. He was always at lesbian dances and events. He wasn't some voyeuristic straight man leering. He was quiet and unassuming. Everyone would just be oh yeah there's Michael the lesbian. I really didn't know him, just would see him at events. I have no idea what his true feelings were, but he either id'd as lesbian or liked to hang out with us and didn't cause any problems. So who cares. It didn't make any of us into a ham sandwich or a cat or not lesbians.