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One other point. PLEASE stay safe. We will have enough martyrs, regrettably. I think that there will come a day, and that day is closer than further away now, when it will be safer to be out where you are. Until then, please stay safe.
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And to me, the promised land looks sort of like this:
A living room. A girl is getting ready to go to the prom. Her date shows up. It's another girl. Introductions are made. She comes to the living room. Sees her date, smiles. Pictures are taken. The parents walk to the door with the kids. Her father stops her date and says, "you'll have her home by when?" The girl mumbles some time. The father then says, "you do know that if you break my little girl's heart, I'll throw you into the Sun." Nods are exchanged. The girls go off. The parent's close the door and the mom says to the dad "She's a nice girl." The dad replies, "Yeah. Not bad at all. Seems smart. Has a level head." That's the Promised Land. On that day, pretty much everything else has already been taken care of. Cheers Aj |
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Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs. To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier. Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people". Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them. As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this. On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with. As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag. I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved. |
The trade-off with gaining marriage equality is, well, gaining marriage equality. My friends who got married in their beautiful home outside North Hampton, Mass had already been together more than 1/4 century. They had no reason not to get married and lots of reasons to get married, particularly legal ones.
They own two properties together and one of them has had a health issue in the past. They, like all of us, are getting older. Now that it's legal to marry in their state, if they chose NOT to get married they could have signaled to anyone who wanted to challenge the legitimacy of their partnership that they weren't really partners after all. Families have been known to go after properties for lesser reasons after a death. When we gain marriage equality we give up being allowed to stay together without any legal bond, but with the expectation in a fair minded community, and the hope in one that is less so, that our partnerships will be respected anyway when the doo-doo hits the fan. |
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Brilliant question! Whether or not I realize it, each day I open my eyes and go into the world, I must make the decision "at what cost." I do not "pass." And "passing" is not the objective of many Trans people. I lead a very open life. I am contiually talking with people, coworkers, people in my spiritual community, young people, that come to me with their questions about "Queerness." (I always make it clear that what I say is my experience and not all queers feel and think the same as I do.) The cost is a loss of personal privacy that could make for a vulnerbility that can feel overwhelming and/or put me in harms way. It's worth it, to me. I will know I have reached the "Promised Land" when I hold respect, acceptance and love for those I once feared and held contempt for. |
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However - When one lives in KKK country - One needs to be a bit careful about who they tell. Julie |
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People sometimes ask me if I am out at work or something like that. I just give them a puzzled look. I never have to come out- all people have to do is look at me to know. I'm happy I don't have to constantly come out, but I do live in Portland, Oregon. If I should end up elsewhere to live or even when visiting, I need to be more aware of my surroundings and also think about the safety of those with me. When I have been subjected to homophobic threats in the past, I am not thinking about educating anyone. I am thinking about defusing the situation and getting the hell out. |
I dunno, I would go so far as to say it doesn't matter if you're in KKK country or NYC, you should still be careful who you tell. Hate crimes can happen anywhere.
When I lived in North Carolina I didn't have pride stickers on my car. I've been in Philly for two years and I just put a pride sticker on my vehicle two weeks ago. I guess I just reached a point where I am comfortable being open about it again. |
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However, since in both cases the government legitimises one's partnership in order to grant legal rights (which is kind of necessary cause it's more difficult to prove after the fact, in court, the agreed depth and responsibilities of said relationship) there's not a hell of a lot of difference in my mind between them. Neither need a ceremony, both involve paperwork, both are ligitmised by the government. My mom was the Domestic Partner of my step-dad. She didn't want to get married again. It allowed them legal rights in that she gets his pension now he's dead and they each had their own house, though he lived in hers and let his daughters live in his. Marriage equality does not necessarily mean loss of recognised partnership in any other way. Many of my stright mates don't opt for marriage as they think it's terribly old fashioned and needless, seeing as there is domestic partnership laws. But they still have to declare their partnership on a tax form! |
I am very Out. I will kiss a woman in public and hold hands....but no stickers of any kind on my car.
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I have lived in the SF Bay Area all my life, up until 3 years ago. Now I live about an hour away from Oakland, up on the Sacramento Delta. It's a tiny, almost completely white, tea-party kind of town. Back when I lived in the bay area, I had some not so cool things happen to me, but only once did I ever feel like I might be in physical danger (followed from my car to my apartment by a bunch of sneering teenage boys). Here in Rio Vista, I haven't had anything in the way of harassment.
My old car had an HRC sticker on the bumper for several years, and someone tried to scratch it off at one point (unsuccessfully lol). My new car, which I got last November, I have yet to put any stickers on it. However, I recently went back to the Bay Area to have lunch with a buddy of mine, and we came out of the restaurant to find someone had keyed the front of my car on the hood and headlights. So, even in the SF Bay shitty stuff goes on. There is just less of a chance of physical harm than, say, parts of the mid-west or the south. But it happens. Even in the Castro in SF, gay men get bashed occasionally. Does that mean I think people should be closeted for their own safety? Depends on the level of safety or lack there of. But being in the closet doesn't ever help us get more acceptance. About that I am very sure. |
I've heard quite a few people, even before this thread, say that tolerance is not enough and they will accept nothing less than acceptance. I'm sincerely confused by this. Why isn't tolerance enough? Keeping in mind that we're dealing with human beings, and human beings are notoriously fickle, ethnocentric, xenophobic, and hateful, how do you expect to ever get there? I honestly can't picture a world where everyone likes me. That's just not something that can reasonably be demanded of humans. There's always going to be some asshole who thinks his personal deity requires him to hate me and everyone like me. Unless someone invents a super duper mind control device to wipe out all dissenting thought, I don't think we're ever going to get there. And really, if someone did invent that device, I wouldn't want them to use it on anyone, ever. I really don't care too much if that asshole hates me, as long as my wife and I have the same rights he and his wife do and he doesn't get a free pass to make his hatred my problem.
It seems to me that "tolerance is not enough" basically means you're setting yourself up for frustration. It's kind of like saying "I will accept nothing less than an amusement park on the moon." That sounds fantastic, it would be the most epic vacation of all time, but if that's the only vacation you'll accept, you're never going to go on vacation. |
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Sometimes during a nice dinner I have to "tolerate" other peoples gross kids as I try to enjoy my meal to be honest I can't really say I do that because I will ask to be moved so I don't have to tolerate it.
So for me when I hear or someone implies they are tolerating my presence it does not sit well with me. I don't want society to just *tolerate* as if I am somehow mucking up their cozy space and experience in every day life. I want to have the same rights they do when they walk out the front door every morning. I want to be able to eat at a restaurant and not have some douchbag stare at our family because they are all sitting there looking like someone shit in the room. Tolerance does not equate equality to me, I'd like to walk out the door, visit my partner in the hospital without 34566 questions, claim them as a dependent, and ffs just walk the dogs without it seeming like we somehow brought property value down. Tolerance equates me walking out the door and the sneers happen or the cars get broken into lord knows if we don't cut the grass they report it to the city why are these dykes/queers living near us turn your back here they come. It's about my rights not tolerance. |
Tolerance creates hierarchy and acceptance creates equality. Through an effort of empathizing, sympathizing and understanding, acceptance creates togetherness. Tolerance creates sides and separation. This is just an opinion of mine.
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Sad isn't it...i/e Snow's post. I live in the city with all walks of life. Good thing, because I'd wager two thirds of my neighborhood wouldn't be tolerated
in the suburbs. There's a drive by shooting on my street every day, ya'll:|. That is absolutely not true, but some people would have you believe that. At the end of the alley behind my house, there is some *tagging*, you know...spray painted art work (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) so I must live in the HOOD. The teenager three doors down, spray paints her hair in stripes and just put an earring in her nose and eye brow for her first day of school tomorrow (as a freshman)....Oh, her father he, has some of the nicest ink work, in the form of a sleeve, and wears his hair very short. Do you think he's a skin head? Well, don't over look me....I must have a DUI or sum tin, I have a car I never use, but always ride a bicycle. Lezbo and all, theres always a shim over here....I know there was a Palin for President sign in my front yard. Thats just why no houses sell around here. Spend five minutes here and you'll see. Talk about property value coming down.:cigar2: |
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