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BUMP!
Any other thoughts? Seems like we never really got to the extent of our experiences.....
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Why She Matters
If you introduced me as she or ze, either is correct. I don’t claim the pronoun he.
I do claim the pronoun "she." My body is the site of oppression and resistance as female and as a butch lesbian. There are no borders in my embattled body between the fight against women's oppression, sexual oppression and trans oppressions. Taking me out of the category of female skews understanding of the spectra of gender expressions and weakens the struggle for women’s liberation, as well as trans liberation and lesbian/gay/poly sexual liberation. My life has been shaped by the apparent contradiction between my birth sex and my gender expression. And I've been shaped by being a masculine lesbian female who found community, or perhaps more accurately: communities, plural, and together against a common enemy. - Leslie Feinberg (author of Stone Butch Blues) http://open.salon.com/blog/robin_sne...ievement_award |
I'm reeling from an incident a few days ago in which my being a butch woman directly relates to my being threatened with bodily harm and threats of continued stalking.
Whenever (or, if) I feel comfortable with a discussion about it, I'll post the details. Because it involved a male POCs within a city that just has a violent rep (especially against butch women) and unfortunately, strong racial tensions, it is especially sensitive. Still processing personally. |
atlasthome - are you ok??
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BUMP
Bumping for re-examination... hopefully.
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Thanks for the bump AtLast. If I had something articulate to say right now I would. I hope more people will re-read and participate. Thank you to Metropolis for her wise words.
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This thread needed a bump, even if by a femme...
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Historically, there have been women who are also like men and the men who are also like women. They are known in Native American tradition as twin spirited or twin-souled and traditionally are the spiritual leaders of the People since they are able to speak for both genders and can often commune with the Creator/Source. This is old Amazonian tradition. There have been Amazon women and transgendered since the dawn of time. The links I posted did not mention that in 2000 years ago, Lybia was considered an Amazonian land and Lybia was known as Africa. Transgendered and genderqueer have historically been known as Shaman and the spiritual leaders of the People. So how does a genderqueer (both) male-id or female id cope???? Bio-dudes can at times look at you and ponder, "Do I fuck or fight h/er?" and male ID or female ID can ignore the beautiful synergy that is the twinned-spirited. How does one express his and/or her soul? And how does one focus and find love in the chaos of our world? |
i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time.
Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger. |
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It was interesting to reread this thread. It was interesting to discover I even posted in it way back when. It has always felt odd to me to have to quantify and qualify the person and woman I am. I never aspired to be anything other than a female and a woman. It was very clear to me at an early age that their were distinct differences between how males and females were seen and treated in our society. Yet, there didnt seem to be words for this until I was in my early teens. When I found the womens movement, back in its infancy, it was an aha! moment for me. Finally there was something that spoke to the person and woman I was. It bothers me, to this day, when I am referred to both within and outside of our community as a masculine woman. I dont see myself as a masculine anything. I see myself as a woman who has always aspired to things that have traditionally been seen as the perogative of the masculine members of our human species. I never sought to be masculine or to emulate masculine. I sought to redefine and expand female and woman. I am pro-female not anti-male. It bothers me when I am not seen as a female in my own community or when I have to qualify it. It bothers me when I address something that is uniquely female i.e. pms or hot flashes and my words are judged to be sexist. And, that the words are seen as sexist based on how my identity is perceived. Yet, I often have to do a rethink and reassess when I see something that strikes me as sexist or perhaps disrespectful to women because of how I perceive the id of the person posting it. And, I always have to be mindful that what I might see as disrespectful to women may not be what another woman sees as disrespectful. Complicated stuff. To me, the patriarchy is so ingrained in us through our socialization, the messages are so insidious and so pervasive that it is very difficult to not internalize this stuff to some degree. Thus, a single event, thought, word, action can be experienced in a multitude of ways depending on who is interpreting it using what filters in what context. I dont know if I can explain this very well but I also see patriarchy steeped in binary concepts which extend throughout much of what we experience. We can talk about breaking out of the binary but can we? Is it realistic? We talk about a spectrum but the spectrum is based on variations within the binary i.e. male-female, masculine-feminine, butch-femme, ying-yang, femaleid-maleid. The binary is the frame of reference we work from. We can modify it but can we break free from it? |
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And it saddens me that any feel devalued because of how they run their energy. Transgendered women and men tend to feel this way because they have the hormonal levels of the genders (or genders) they feel. I think all of medicine did a collective "D'OH!" when they saw those figures. |
Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.
Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all. I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch. It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them. Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary. So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than. Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day. |
Just to add a thought of my own...
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Speaking from this femmes POV it frustrates me a bit to have to (sometimes repeatedly) correct people that my partner is a she. She does not want to be a he, never has. They seem shocked at that, probably because she is butch. i want to be with a she, i am myself more comfortable with that so we fit well. i have never wanted to emulate the life of straight folks, i don't want to look like them, i don't want to have sex like them and i don't want to be referred to as MAN/WOMAN..i don't want it to be expected that i want to be with a *male* ID'd partner. |
Thank you Parker for so eloquently saying what I often feel. And, I appreciate you relating this to sexism in our society. It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community. In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena. To me, there is no difference between a cis male publicly calling attention to his penis, wanting it worshipped, and enumerating on what he wishes to do with it, and someone in this community doing the same thing. To me, they are both examples of women being used as sex objects for sexual gratification and titillation. Some people may like that, tho I am wondering if they like and/or are aware of what that attitude conveys. Women are not one dimensional beings. And one can easily appreciate all women are and flirt with them without being sexist about it. Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it. Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received. However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect? |
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Thank you for articulating thoughs and feelings I've had myself. For me: I would date a male id'd woman. One that desires too be called he, I find this more difficult for me, but would personally not limit myself by this alone. xo, ~Bleu |
Transwomen most certainly do face a lot of oppression, sexism, violence etc. They often get the double whammy of being treated in some of the most extreme forms of sexism I have ever seen combined with extreme forms of transphobia. So transwomen certainly do face a lot.
So I am not comparing my situation. Yet to say that butch women do not face violence and sexism as a woman is just ridiculous. In fact just because someone uses He or Hy online doesn't mean they aren't going to out in the world either. They face the same things too. The idea that just because someone uses the pronoun he or hy online means they are more butch and/or more masculine is a big huge joke to me and anyone who knows or meets butches in the real world will know that it isn't true. Yet it continues to get perpetuated. Unfortunately some of us have been saying the same things for way more than 2 years. |
I see why you'd be upset. I was speaking in gross generalities, not of specific people. Gross generalities never apply whole to individuals. I'm sorry my comment never considered you and your experience. However I wasn't trying to speak for any individual but in generalities.
And by my comment, Transwomen feel more like women" is my observation of energy. Energetically....they feel more like women. This is my experience. I am speaking for myself. I don't expect everyone to agree with my senses or perceptions. Some feel twin-souled meaning I get a hit of both genders flowing at once towards me. I find that many bio-dames like to compete with me. Personally, I hate to compete. It makes me feel unclean. I have yet to experience a competitive vibe with a transwoman. Maybe that's why I feel this way?? We can just get to the connecting and Sisterhood part of life and leave the petty bitchiness behind. I understand that my comment did not take in consideration anyone elses' perspective. It wasn't my intention to include everyone HOWEVER it is not my intent or will to have my opinion accepted as gospel by anyone. IT IS NOT. It is my opinion. Historically, the twin-souled are the shaman or spiritual leaders of the community. Meaning LGBTI for 10,000s of years have had this place of honor. We spoke with God, the spirits and healed the community and the lands. This birthright has been devalued by Patriarchy as women and E have been devalued. It is because we know, respect and understand all our hormonal expressions that we can commune with God as well as teach others how to make that connection. In Asian martial arts, it is the practitioner who can balance Yin and Yang (E & T) who grows in wisdom and ability. Taoism (like most religions) is remarkablily similar to shamanism. Taoism probably is the most generally known version of this. Point is, we all have been turned invisible. We all have been devalued. We generally have this experience as bio-dames but we all have this in common. Don't let my version or perspective dictate you or your experience. I know your experience will be different from mine. I look for universalities and seek connection thru those universalities. But that's just how I roll. Quote:
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Ok this post is making me twitch and not in a good way. First of all, I, for one, do not appreciate being referred to a bio-dame. I am female and a woman. "Dame" has a regal connotation in British history. In American history, it has more of a derogatory connotation. Perhaps you need to figure that into the not generalizing you mentioned. Secondly, this is a thread for the experiences of butch women in a patriarchal society and I do not wish to derail that into a different focus. However, you did mention something that does fit into the current conversation and perhaps is a good example of how we internalize our patriarchal socialization and how it colors our perceptions of other people. You mentioned your energy work, and how the energy of a transwoman feels different to you. You said your interpretation of this difference is because "bio-dames" compete with you and it make you feel unclean. Yet, you dont experience the same competition with a transwoman. And somehow, you have deduced that because of this, transwoman energy feels more "woman-like" to you. Has it occured to you that you have been socialized since birth to feel this exact thing? Has it occured to you that females are socialized to compete against other females? Has it occured to you that women have been socialized to feel unclean and all the variations that come with unclean? Has it occured to you that transwomen you are speaking about have not been socialized since birth in the same way? And, perhaps, the differences you are feeling and your interpretation of them is the differences in socialization being filtered thru your own internalized sexism and misogyny? Has it occured to you that this internalization extends to the words we use, the concepts we believe, and the pronouncements we make which all serve to reinforce the patriarchy and screw other women in the process? |
Why would someone say some women feel more like women than others? Why pit women against women? Besides, some transwomen are butches. Transwomen are just as diverse in their energy, gender and sexuality as any other group of people.
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