http://medicalmuckraker.wordpress.co...gain/#more-368

"Said one EPA employee: “Anything that could look bad to the press isn’t being done. We’re completely ignoring the biggest environmental disaster ever in the U.S.”"

Did they really say this, why would they say this?

When you say 'experimental pathogens' could you be a bit more specific? What kind of experimental pathogens? When I hear that phrase, I think of something very specific--like Fort Detrick Special Pathogens Lab specific. Do you mean unfamiliar pathogens or novel, deliberately designed anthropogenic pathogens?

Out of sheer professional curiosity, what is your research speciality? I'm very interested in epidemiology as my 'third act'. Have been fascinated by the subject ever since I did reporting on the HIV/AIDS research back in the early 90's and was completely hooked by Laurie Garrett's brilliant book "The Coming Plague". So when you said you did medical science research my ears perked up.

Cheers
Aj

The problem I have with this article is that it isn't attributed. I could *say* that I know a biologist who says that they have vat-grown a bacteria that could dumped into the Gulf right now and would eat all the oil within a matter of days and then die off. That doesn't mean I have spoken to that scientist but I could say that I have. If I said, "<Insert Name Here> has written this paper which you can read here..." then that would have some veracity to it but, unfortunately, the article you linked to doesn't give us anything to go on. At a time like this, I am reminded of the old saw "a lie can be halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on". I'm not saying that the blogger in question is lying, but I'm rather suspect because there's absolutely no attribution, not even a hint of one.

Are you talking about the fire from the lightning strike or the fires lit to burn off some of the surface oil? I wasn't aware of widespread fires from this.

Yes lightning strikes. If a freak storm sets all that oil off it could be a nightmare of horror. Oil can also form a vapor cloud of it's own if it sits long enough due to all the vapors/gasses built into the storm itself. A storm cloud that is so heavy it could self ignite and pour down acid rain. Also if a hurricane is a giant blender than lightning can ignite a oil ball that spews out anywhere.

Actually, population has fluctuated sometimes wildly. Population has been on an overall upward trend for the last 40 or 50,000 years (but that was easy because all of us are descended from a population of no more than about 10,000 breeding pairs living about 50K years ago). But with various diseases Europe alone had two or three big die offs from plague alone (at least one of those was half the population of Europe and that's just one continent). It is almost certain that we cannot maintain 8 or 9 billion people (that number, barring a catastrophic event is a fait accompli at this point) without technology. There are (relatively) cheap energy sources that could be deployed now but I doubt that the United States will do them in a timely or sane fashion. As far as agriculture the thing that would be *most* useful is GMOs but, for reasons that mystify me, people seem to think that there is a fundamental difference between taking the genes of one living thing and randomly mixing it the genes of another living thing (what we've spent the last 12,000 years doing with all our crops and the last 20,000 years with animals) and taking the genes of one living thing and non-randomly mixing it with the genes of another living thing (genetic engineering). Certainly from the gene's point of view, those are equivalent.

Perhaps you are right. I read the article that Kam linked to to be saying that Bill Gates was saying we should use vaccines as a way of culling the population but it is certainly possible that I misread it.

Well I know there was one lightning strike on a ship and that a fire broke out because of it. I wasn't aware that this had happened multiple times during this incident. (I took your fires everywhere comment literally to mean that *currently* there were fires, well, everywhere directly related to this oil spill. I presume, now, that's not what you meant?)

As we speak, Fema is holding meetings in Florida and elsewhere discussing this possibility and solutions. I just read about it today in the Tampa Bay Tribune, and at Allspark.com. Lightning has set many fires off oil. Also these experts warn that the oil can act like a thermal blanket raising water temperature giving these storms more energy

We absolutely should stop all off-shore drilling at this point although, to be perfectly honest, I think it's *possible* to do it safely but corporations in America--for reasons that are pretty self-evident now--don't have to do common sensical things like drilling emergency relief wells.

Our priorities ARE out-of-whack. We *could* be phasing out private petroleum-powered vehicles for electric vehicles if we had started working on it, say, 20 years ago but we didn't. We could be largely off of fossil fuels for electricity generation had we poured research funds into solar, wind and fast-breeder nuclear reactors (which are far more stable AND feed off their own waste products) but we didn't. The oil situation isn't a surprise, it's been a known approaching issue for at least three decades now.

Cheers
Aj

Could I trouble you to post a link to the Allspark.com you are talking about? The url http://www.allspark.com takes me to a Transformers site and I'm reasonably certain that's not what you're talking about. I'd be interested in reading more about what these experts are saying.

Cheers
Aj

Drilling a second or third relief well only exacerbates the situation... Chances are, the entire seabed is about to erupt creating a “super tsunami” @ 400 – 600 mph …


http://www.helium.com/items/1864136-...-kill-millions

I don't know if this video has already been posted but it pretty much explains what's going on:

What's really going on with America's oilspill:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0711843120756#

I have not been able to find a single reputable (read peer reviewed) source that confirms this. Everything I have been able to find has been breathless writings on various blogs which, as far as I can tell, all appear to be referencing one another. All of those appear to be leading back to Richard C. Hoagland who, not to put too fine a point on it, has no real credibility given his penchant for "the moon landing never happened" conspiracy theories. I checked at the USGS (US Geological Survey) and could find nothing about this. I checked at SciAm and New Scientist *both* of which have scientists reporting from the field on this spill and while there are articles about methane seeping up through the water column, no mention of a giant tsunami that could kill large numbers of people.

I think that what is happening in this instance is that there is an echo-chamber effect--one person screams out on their blog WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!! and then someone else, picking up that blog post writes on THEIR blog "some people are saying WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE" and then someone reads that post and writes on THEIR blog "I'VE SEEN THIS IN TWO PLACES ON THE WEB. WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/se...&submit=submit

http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...wat-2010-06-16

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ne-to-gauge-si

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-methane-study

I am NOT saying that it's impossible. I am saying that, at present, I have a hard time seeing any evidence for this event being at all likely (while still having a non-zero probability). The only people who appear to be saying that this kind of thing is likely to happen either aren't credentialed, won't cite their sources, or have a history of wild-eyed conspiracy mongering which seriously damages their credibility.

Cheers
Aj

Ummm...no. This is nothing more than some very thin conspiracy mongering. Isn't it possible--just *possible*, mind you--that this is a very tragic, very large, but ultimately very pedestrian industrial accident brought about by corporate incompetence and lax (read nonexistent) government regulation? I'm not asking if you think it's true, clearly you see some kind of fantastic machinations taking place, but I'm asking if you have considered the possibility that it might *NOT* be a giant conspiracy but just what it appears to be--an industrial accident of gigantic proportions.

EPA just released the results of their atmosperic tests at ground zero and they are downright scary. http:/gulfcoast.airtectnow.org/ for any of you living near the gulf to check daily. Clean up crews are getting paid 19-30 an hour by BP but are getting sick.

Could you please repost the link? The link you gave returns a 404 error.

Thanks.

Cheers
Aj

these geniuses have drilled into an active VOLCANO where oil and poisonuos gases are shooting up out of the ocean floor. This video was shot nowhere near the rig. [nomedia]http://youtube.com/watch?v=KbN7v8OTDdw[/nomedia]

Was this the site you were talking about?

http://gulfcoast.airnowtech.org/

This is an even better site:

http://www.epa.gov/bpspill/air.html

Could you explain what it is in the data that is scary?

Also the YouTube link didn't work.

What active volcano?

What is the name of the volcano? I Googled "active volcanoes Gulf of Mexico" and got no hits. So then I Googled "list of all active volcanoes" and none of the maps or lists show an active volcano in the coordinates corresponding to the Gulf of Mexico. Can you give us some more information, please?

If you are going to post this stuff, PLEASE give us the resources to look into this for ourselves.

Aj; I understand about the motto "ask the experts first" but they are saying that "we've never been in a hurricane situation where an oil spill occurred, or are keeping mum until something Does ocurr. We the People are left to use our own noodles, since this is no longer the sixties where an angry mob would have gathered demanding knowledge of what could happen

Okay but in order to use our own noodles we need *information* not just any information *good* information. Why is it that these blog websites know that there is a methane bubble that is going to explode any minute now but neither of the two premier American scientific magazines who have scientists *on-site and doing real-time analysis and reporting* know anything about it?

There is a lot of opportunity for hysterical overreaction (and I'm NOT saying you are being hysterical or overreacting) and so I think it is important that information that is being disseminated should be sourced and that the source should be reputable. BP I don't particularly trust because they have a fiscal interest in downplaying this. But the various universities that have sent researchers to the site as well as the USGS and the EPA have exactly the *opposite* motivation as BP--they have no fiduciary interest and their reputations can be made or destroyed on how they do their research.

My primary concern is that unsourced, uncorroborated information is being spread around and that THIS information--because it is dramatic and can be put out in a few short sentences--will crowd out *GOOD* information which is less dramatic and requires a bit more reading and digestion. Most people (again not saying you) will prefer the easily digestible bad information over the more difficult good information.

If someone drilled into an active volcano in the Gulf of Mexico, what is the name of the volcano? What are the coordinates of that volcano? A YouTube video makes great visuals but it doesn't actually provide information.

If the EPA air sampling is scary what, precisely, is scary about it? What datum scared you? Giving those charts a cursory reading didn't seem all that alarming.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying you're right. I'm asking for information so I can use MY noodle but so far, the information has either been not-forthcoming, not reliable or unavailable.

I'm sorry to look at what appears to be a scientific problem with the eye of a scientist but, well, this IS a scientific and engineering problem and I think that it helps to look at it with the eye of a scientist or an engineer.

No, dread, not even close, it's all been planned for years... I'm trying to help you understand what's happening - nothing is as it seems - except that gushing hole of oil/gas, etc., etc., is real... our Government... there is no real Government, it's all a facade, we all work for the Federal Reserve - whether we know it or not - our Government and all corporations are all puppets of the Federal Reserve which the above video explains, Obama gave the Federal Reserve $3T for the stimulus package when he first came in, Congress didn't have any say, one way or another - he pushed it through because they all work for the Federal Reserve - the people that own all the money in the world - hello! They have turned around using that money to finance 'certain missions', they own BP, and this $20B will never get to the people, Obama just handed it back to the Federal Reserve again... Listen to this inside conversation coming from this fellow, he knows what's going on:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKBRXZMVo5k"]YouTube- Lindsey Williams on Radio Liberty with Dr. Stan Monteith 1/5: What Will Happen to America in 2010[/nomedia]


In Video 1 - he talks about food and water supplies and the necessities...

Pardon Me AJ Aka Flying Spagetti Monster, [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbN7v80TDdw"]YouTube- BP Oil Spill: Why They Can't Stop The Leak!!!!![/nomedia]. It's not like we are saying a giant fish or Godzilla is coming out of the ocean to eat us. These are all distict possibilities that can happen, and I want to know the truth...that's all.

So what you are saying is that this oil rig disaster was planned years in advance. What's more, the Federal Stimulus was quite a bit smaller--by a factor of four smaller--than $3 trillion. Congress DID vote on the stimulus because the President doesn't control the pursestrings Congress does. What $2 billion are you talking about? Do you mean $20 billion?

I took a look at Dr. Monteith's web site and, quite honestly, what I've read so far seems rather far-fetched.

Ok, who's 87 years old, a powerful political force associated with the Alaskan Pipeline and has had negotiations with China?... the head honcho of the Bilderberg Group? The Alaskan Pipeline have you checked it out lately? If you do a Google search you'll see who this War Lord is that is in control of the world, why... it's the devil himself. I think he's been mentioned a few times already... he controls the world and all of politics and he's fooled us all.

Why? and what happened?

http://www.theinterim.com/july98/20nssm.html

Do a little homework, dig around...

All I want to know is the truth as well popcorn. But the truth requires *facts*. If someone drilled into a volcano, that volcano is on *some* survey of active volcanoes on the planet. That means that the volcano has a name (or at least a designation) and a precise geographical coordinate so what is the name of the volcano and where is it located?

I'm not saying that these aren't distinct possibilities but is there any *evidence* for it? There is a distinct possibility that a rock the size of Manhattan could crash into the Earth in the next month. There is absolutely a non-zero probability of this happening but that doesn't mean that we have any reason to believe that this will happen in the next 30 days because there is no evidence for it.

If there is a real danger of a gigantic methane bubble exploding and creating a huge tsunami, why is it that the only places that know about it are these breathless blogs but not a *single* scientific web site or science-based blog? Not one?

Btw. I'm NOT the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Peace and Sauce be Upon Her, Ramen). I am a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster--well not really, the FSM is a parody invented by a UC Davis student to point out the utter absurdity of teaching intelligent design (creationism dressed up for court) in biology classrooms.

The Devil? You mean Satan? As in Old Scratch?

Aj, I admire your patience.

Ha! Thinkin bout another unusual detail concerning the spill I just noticed on the web. The spill happened on April 20. April 19/20are high holy days in occult matters. Matters concerning sacrificial offerings. It is alleged to be the changed birthday of Hitler. Columbine occured and Waco and other atrocities. Even the American Revolution. Article on April mishaps http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220476/april bloody april.

Okay no, you don't. But you DO need science to understand what impacts there will be and how serious they will be. You DO need science to understand the air hazard. You DO need science to predict the flow of oil. You DO need science to clean up the mess.

No, you don't need science to know that an oil spill happened and you don't need science to know that the government has bungled the response. But everything AFTER that requires science. People can pray for the oil to disappear from now until the Universe undergoes heat death in another 30 billion years or so and it won't do a damn bit of good. When this mess is cleaned up (and it will be eventually) it will be science that played a crucial part in that happening. When the Gulf of Mexico rebounds (and it WILL rebound, life has seen far, far, far worse than this in the last 4 billion years) it will be science that helps us understand what was preserved and what was lost. So in order to truly assess this event as it unfolds and all of its downstream implications requires science.

Oh and lest anyone say that science got us into this mess, not even wrong. The failure of the Deepwater Horizon was a failure of engineering, capitalism and governance but it wasn't a failure of science.

Wow, that's some serious wingnut conspiracy stuff in these posts. Wow.

And we need to take the money needed to fund science more seriously in the US! For the most part, it is funded at educational institutions.. we all know what that means since the US has been in free-throw decline educationally in the global picture.

Then, there are the bought and paid for scientists by corporations like BP- if our scientific community were funded properly, this would not happen. Scientists would be well paid and remain independent.

I actually get a little angry when I hear the phrase... If we can send a man to the moon..... we haven't put the support into science (including what stem cells can help us with) since JFK made his moon speech in 1960!

Now, science is a big part of this, but, the three simple words... reduce, reuse and recycle are very important... and the first two are the most significant. Many people just figure, Oh, I can keep buying this kind of packaging, it now can go into the recycle bin. However, look at what gets tossed from that bin while the bins is processed at facilities and ends up in landfill because there is simply too damn much of it!

And public financed elections would go a long way to stop the greed based persuasions of our political system.

I actually do not buy we, the common people, have no say.... I refuse to be helpless and remain a victim. The people of the Gulf need our getting off our behinds more than ever... and this will have lasting effect on us all forever.

The local level of democracy right now (look at the people fighting for their shorelines, fish, etc. right now saying Fuck you, I am not waiting for a clean-up decision about my home!

Complacency and our own inaction in allowing the power structure to evolve and prevail is a big part of why and how these things happen. Are you contacting your representatives (yes, it does matter)? Do you support education in your own communities? Have you stood silent as positions in wildlife and forestry departments have been tossed? Do you ever volunteer for annual clean-ups of the preserves, etc. that you live near and enjoy?

You can't tell me that if scientists were part of the initial deep water drilling hypothesis and were respected in this country (and paid well and receive the funding they need to do research, without corporate bias), this would have happened. When top minds are owned by the corporate Wall Street driven entities, this is the result.

I can't tell you how many times I hear at city council meetings bitching about environmental impact studies, yet, when something goes wrong, the blame game starts. We can't have it both ways.

Sorry, I'm on a rant. I am so frustrated and just can't accept that we the people cannot change things. And I sit here wondering about the other oil rigs out there and when the next one will blow while I see multi-billionaire election candidates buying elected offices and no one seems to get that this is exactly why we are in this mess!

We need to change our priorities! No, science did not get us in this mess, the lack of support and respect for science sure as hell contributed to this, however! And hell, I am no hard-science wiz! Get science out of the clutches of politics!!

Fact 1: The 2009 Stimulus package was $787 Billion not $3 Trillion
Fact 2: The 2009 Stimulus package was passed by both houses of Congress
Fact 3: The President is NOT empowered to spend money. Only Congress can appropriate funds:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Fact 4: The Federal Reserve is not empowered to spend money. The Federal Reserve is statutorily limited to the following powers:

1>Conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.

2>Supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system, and protect the credit rights of consumers.

3>Maintaining stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets.

4>Providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system.

Fact 5: The 2009 Stimulus was passed by Congress on 15 February 2009.

Fact 6: The Federal Reserve do not own "all the money in the world". Each nation--well, each nation with an economy of any size--has its own central banking authority which regulates the currency and internal credit markets. The Federal Reserve is the United States central bank and no other. Now, it is true that the Fed has a disproportionate amount of power on the world stage but that is solely an artifact of the United States Dollar being the 800 lb gorilla of currency because the US is the 800 lb gorilla of economies. The dollar is, for now, the world's reserve currency and so whatever effects the dollar effects the world economy. But that is a very far cry from 'owning all the money in the world'.

I'm sorry for the derail but if I have learned *nothing* in 2 decades on the Internet it is this: if bad information is allowed to persist without full-bodied challenge it will continue to spread and spread. The only way to combat toxic memes is with beneficial memes--facts are one such meme.

Cheers
Aj

and I thought Obama's speech made me bang my head on the desk............

Thank you!

And as a non-geek science buff (just not my talent and horrible with math), I want to add that civics classes are needed with the content of constitutional and legislative jurisprudence- big time!! . Hell, just general and accurate knowledge of the separations of powers would be good. This is really basic stuff.

Frankly, I think that every 5 years, every US citizen should be tested about this to be able to continue to register to vote (US born and nationalized)! I would love for birthers and right-wing nuts and tea baggers to be first in line and compare how they do with foreign born citizens that took citizenship classes and go through this process! My Mexican born neighbor can recite all of the Amendments of the US Constitution verbatim- I can't!

Of course, this would most likely lead to racist applications….

Hummm, yet, we have a Senate Minority leader (Bohner/Boner-the-closeted birther) getting up in front of tea bag crowds mistaking the Preamble for the Constitution!! There is a hell of a role-model!

Even Wikipedia has a quick & easy guide to Separation of Powers-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...s_Constitution
I'm not trying to put anyone down, I just get riled about simple laziness, especially in the age of the internet.. when we are having this conversation on the internet! Formal or higher education isn’t needed, self-education works just fine! My folks went to the 3rd & 8th grades and 3 of my Grandparents were functional illiterates (throw in some learning disabilities, too) - yet all 4 passed citizenship tests. One grandmother used to try and read road signs to help herself learn to read and just learn English (which at times was quite comical in terms of pronunciation). She would make my Mom drive her around to practice! Hell, horse-sense usually ends up being good sense!

And yes, I am a frustrated old history & civics teacher (that can’t spell) from a zillion years ago. I honestly think some people think Obama can just get in one of those underwater crafts and get down there and plug that hole!

:fastdraq:

Prayer for The Water
 

found this on JMG with the title: Your Daily Minute Of Crazy Only Rep. Crazy Eyes can make O'Reilly seem reasonable.