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Okay, let's review.... We know what is happening. We know who is doing it (including Cordova). The only thing left to explore is the why of it. I think the WHY OF IT goes to the core of Heart's post about leadership and "women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through.... Heart is absolutely right. The issues she's raises are huge and not for the faint of heart. (No pun intended.) Quote:
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I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.
My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not. I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place. I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved. |
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Talking among ourselves about issues of importance to us in a space of our own - how exclusive and discriminatory. :shocking: |
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When I made a statement about them and their "non-profit/ not-for-profit" status, I mistakenly misread or misinterpreted what At Last had posted leading me to believe they were claiming to be of that tax exempt status. When I read Goldberg's press release ( which, btw, it always bothers me when someone reports "news" about themselves in third person) she clearly states that they are NOT not-for-profit. The "legal" standing or issues hinted at in At Last's post, was a comment Goldberg made referring to BV's legal standing in asking the volunteer members to sign a non-disclosure/ non-compete contract. In so far as the telephone,hotel, car, travel, etc expenses, I would be willing to guess they are related to, at least in part, the Regional Symposiums they produce/host. From looking at the site, it appears they do a great deal of hands on out-reach involving different media and different cities across the country. These symposiums generate the majority of their income. They do not set up and run themselves. People are usually sent to events as supervisory roles or representatives or educators/speakers and just as the average working class person can't afford what persons in a better financial bracket might, the extra expense of a trip across country to try to carry the word may be a part of the budget built in by their board, in that BV carries the cost of the members who go "host" these events. I am not a member or board member there so I am simply guessing based on my experience on other boards/ groups, that this is not unheard of or even of questionable ethics. As to the lack of a line item for "scholarships", there is none. However, they do clearly state on their Financial assistance page ... "A NOTE ON FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE: BUTCH Voices is an amazing organization, hoping to put on an amazing conference. While we are able to offer assistance, our funds are not limitless. We have a set budget for financial assistance (we would be happy to share that with you if you are interested in seeing it)." From the format of their P&L's, I would assume that where a "budget" exists, an actual current and prior also exist. I would also assume that the choice to not post that in their P&L may come from privacy issues with the recipients of those awards. I m not exactly sure why all of this ( your post) felt pointed toward me, I am sure part of it is just venting. I would like to point out that all I said is that their spreadsheets appear very transparent and clear to me and that IF they are a not for profit, they should consider declaring that. If they have what you view as some sort of discrepancies in their reporting perhaps they are lumping those costs into categories that the details of which are handled in an accountants journal. Who knows??? This "feels" to me very icky. I mean, seriously, our own transparent financials don't even include last years Reunion. At least, as far as I can tell. I've looked through a few admin oriented threads and just can't seem to find it, perhaps I am just missing it. So, I, can't attempt to second guess how their Board has decided to record/ post their business. So, moving on... The biggest issue I have with it ALL... is that it just feels like once again plain ole butch dykes ( and generally speaking their femme partners/ spouses by affiliation) are being cast aside. It is not just there that it is happening. It is happening all over the LGBTQIA ( is that all of it?) community. Scandal Andy... my describing MY butch experience(s) is very much a LESBIAN discussion. Here, I'll toss in a leap if it makes you more comfy... LEAP! ;) Sometimes we lesbians Leap for Joy... Sometimes we jump up and down to be heard as our... OUR VOICES are being strangled as much by our own "allies" as those other people we like to THINK oppress and erase us. Even on this site I have seen "lesbian sex" referred to as boring while accolades were strewn for hetero-sex. Interesting, no? Where the hell are we going as a queer community when we are blatantly criticizing lesbian sex over the newly ( and creepily in my world) preferred hetero-sex? This is just an example and not a jumping on someone for some other thread thing. I apologize if my need to self reveal/ self discover read to you as a defining of butch. I am really, as always, just trying to wrap my head around all of this ever changing stuff. It is just how I process. In my life experience, just mine mine mine... to be Butch was to be Lesbian. Perhaps that might help you get where I was coming from. It ( heh, the definition of Butch) HAS changed. |
June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.
As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc. Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover. I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions. Thanks for your questioning mind June! Quote:
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You are not alone. :) Quote:
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I would like to see Women's organizations headed by Women. That being said, I can understand how someone already in a leadership position can change their perception on how the identify as they discover their own mind and path. I have no clue what the answer is, but discussing it really helps us think. :) Quote:
However, I don't think this thread was created out of a power play in a malicious way. I think Liam was trying to be helpful. I do agree that it seems weird than a man started this thread and that being helpful when no help is wanted can seem heavy handed. Quote:
Yes I am an out and proud Lesbian discussing Lesbian issues! Quote:
I never posted in Dykes to Watch Out for Thread because I thought it was about the comic strip by a similar name and I never read it. It is all about perception isn't it. :) Great discussion! |
Still hoping for a discussion of this:
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The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center". Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics. "Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo) For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...Leadership.pdf |
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Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve? :sunglass: Quote:
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In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden). Quote:
When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns? |
Ummm, just though of this.....
If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes? :confused: Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.) But wait.... Where was the "center"? Oh yeah, Wyoming. Where's Wyoming? |
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I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not............. |
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It pisses me OFF. Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women. |
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Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.
We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff. We'll call them Asians of center. |
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You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you. Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten. |
Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.
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http://i.infopls.com/images/states_imgmap.gif Personally, I think Kansas is in the center..... :cheesy: |
I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes. First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically. Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy. I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male. In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented. However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation. In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups. So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go. In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic. Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well. This is a very complex thing. |
My second point has to do with the new world order and no Chazz, its not about women/female id butches taking a step back LOL. The trans community is growing by leaps and bounds. As more and more folks come to grips with their true selves and take steps to create their true selves it will grow even more. When children as young as 2 or 3 are showing and stating gender issues, it is a reality that cannot be ignored. Basic change theory postulates that a change in one part of a system requires a change in another. It has to change. It cannot not change. We have seen glimpses of just some of the issues that need to be grappled with on this site. We have seen issues related to transgender athletes in sports, to bathrooms, to locker rooms, to educational facilities and opportunities, to anti discrimination laws, the Michigan Womens Music festival, Olivia cruises etc. The part that gets complicated is we have a fast moving changing reality and are ill equipped, presently, to incorporate that into everyday living at a pace that keeps up. Kind of like technology is leap years ahead of law. The butch-femme community talks a lot about getting rid of a binary system of gender yet we cling to it! Butch femme connotates a certain thing. So one is expected to be one or the other. Seeing not too many guys are clamoring for the femme label, it is the butch label that is taking the brunt of things. In the new world order, I fully expect butch-femme as we know it will become obsolete. It will take time, in-fighting, a lot of hurt feelings, before something new reflecting the new reality will emerge. Change is hard on everyone and resisted at all costs. It is the pain/pleasure principle (principle not dynamic). My opinion is, clinging to binary system in butch femme is clinging to the known out of fear of the unknown. So, rather than work toward something new, we are seemingly trying to rehash the old. It's familiar. It's comfortable even tho it is in an uncomfortable way. Lesbians/female id butches will fight back when they are grouped with male id's. It should be expected. Lesbians/female id's will look/go elsewhere when male id's seek to speak for or define them. It's logical. Women will react when male power and privilige negatively impacts them. It's viseral in this day and age. It's a process and a very uncomfortable one. But what we have here is a freakin pie. Instead of 2 pieces, you cut it into three or four or five. You dont have to stab at one another or carve out one piece into many. You have to reconfigure the entire pie. It can be a win-win proposition. We will get there. But I am not looking forward to the process. |
Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.
Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming? Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual. Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion. |
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this. Feel free to add on here. As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question. As a female id butch, I customarily do. As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns. As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc. As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question. Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight. As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine". As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it! As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier. As a butch lesbian, it's women only. As a femme, she will always be a femme. As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality. As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man. As a butch I usually am. As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man. As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face. As a femme, she will never be too feminine. As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying. There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me. |
Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.
I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend: Quote:
The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting. The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking". The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are. The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context. The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken". The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit. |
I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.
While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community. What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling? |
ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol
What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around. :) |
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I think you misunderstood me. I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole. The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accomodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like. Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them? :winky: Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/ So, is masculine of center to the left or the right? |
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You raise an some excellent points! As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality. Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it? :winky: The scope of this is quite amazing. |
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So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations? I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting! For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why? |
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Left? I always equate masculine with the right. |
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I am sure it means something epimystical. :spider: Glad I asked, I thought you were saying do away with Sirius. |
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http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...264#post387264 |
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Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.
Heart |
As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.
"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question." I have my queerness called into question routinely. "As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question." "Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive. "As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine". Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms. "As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man." I will be mistaken for straight. "As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man." I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good. "As a femme, she will never be too feminine." My femininity will be objectified. |
i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.
i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda. COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed. |
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My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine. Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature. I dont understand this: "And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement." I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence. I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain. Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that. |
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I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along. Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/ |
I know right Metro.
Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center? |
Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:
http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices. My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella." |
I am glad some of this is getting discussed.
I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work. I dont want to be a straight man. Who I am is the first butch (woman) ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman) to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever had has been in a male dominated field. I want to be seen. This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me. In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point. Really? really. To what? The ultimate male? huh? I have the correct amount of T for me,already. This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch. Best way I can think to describe it. Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of raging butch menopause. I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir". The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated. Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel accepted and ok just how I am. I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok. I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place. |
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