I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

Do you really think that the Center that is being built in New York is a a place where people are being recruited to fight and kill???


Really?

These points of view are spreading hate and lies about a people. It's blatantly obvious ffs it's a COMMUNITY CENTER not a military camp.

I don't believe for one second that you were playing Devil's Advocate.

I find it "gross" Lady Snow that you and some others have assumed from my postings on this thread as well as an article I shared not wrote myself is a
reflexion of what I am all about and what I believe. I may not be as popular as you are on this site but I have the same rights as a community member that you do. So assume away. I have not put words in your mouth or assumed or criticized you as you have me in this thread.

FeminineAllure,

I think that when a member posts an article--especially on such a contentious issue--that others may presume that the poster may concur with some of their statements? Also, when the link is provided without any statement of whether you agree or disagree--people will presume you abide by that article or at least find things interesting that you wish to share with the forum.

I post links/articles that reflect my ideology and so it isn't surprising that some may believe your opinions are reflected in the article you chose to post.

Are you saying that "my popularity" is keeping your from posting your thoughts and ideals about the Community Center?

:|

I am going to ask again...


Do you really think that the Center that is being built in New York is a a place where people are being recruited to fight and kill???


Really?



You should view this cause it's a good laugh and well ridiculous as the article you posted

It's NOT a MOSQUE! Do you subscribe to this guys viewpoint? I'm asking because I am genuinely interested.

Again, the Islamic Community Center is not a Mosque. Statistics from a not yet published study by a group with questionable ethics isn't fact. It is Islamophobia.

What is your opinion? You seem to be feeling attacked, but you are not really being clear on what it is you are saying.

"And no, I do not think IMO that a Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero is appropriate. And I try not to be a hypocrite and live my life like a Christian."

The above in bold is a quote by you. I think that negates people assuming what your beliefs are. You've stated your opinion and then followed it up with a blog that concurs with you.

Of course you have a right to your opinion, nobody is saying that you do not. Everyone has the right to an opinion and when we state it on an open forum it's going to be discussed.

A lot of people have tried to discuss with you the FACTS around the Islamic Community Center (NOT A MOSQUE) and now you are saying it is about being popular.

I know you know that is not true.

If you are against the center then fine. You are against it. If others are for it then we are going to discuss.

There is no room to play victim.

This is a -gentle- reminder that this thread is NOT in the RED ZONE.

This is definitely a hard subject to discuss and we all have very personal feelings about it... So please keep your responses respectful.

Thanks
SassyLeo

"To continue the efforts to battle Sharia Law and the attempts of radical Muslims to use it to destroy our values and the gains of feminism....."

riiiiiiiiiiight, THIS nut is now suddenly a mouthpiece for feminism?? I'm so sure about that.

thanks for the link to this article. I feel... even dirtier now.

Seriously. It's pretty manipulative to try and couch this in "It's about the women!". I'm appalled.

Oh My Allah!
 

And you know, while we're at it, if you actually look at Ground Zero on a map (which I've had to do since I've never been to New York)... I'm lookin' there and ... oh RIGHT BESIDE WTC, is... St. Peter's Roman Catholic Church, St. Paul's Churchyard... even John Street United Methodist Church appears to be closer to Ground Zero.


Since this is a contest...It's 3 against 1. Christians win.

We could use curling rules? (closest rock to the centre wins?)

just a thought.

Re: SHARIA LAW. Suspect not too many here know what it is. In fact, real sharia law is closer to democracy and socialism than the democracy practiced in the USA and western European countries. Under sharia law, the entire society is protected (including non muslims). Everybody is "taxed" in a sense. Muslims pay a zakat (proportion of their incomes) that is significantly higher than what is required of non muslims living in an Islamic country (if they can afford it). They are paying for the protection of the Islamic military and basic community services, just as a resident alien living in the USA is paying taxes.
A woman's 'vote' was worth half that of a man (likewise a female witness to a crime) because it was presumed that the women were in the home giving birth and caring for children rather than dabbling in the affairs of the society.
Now, if you want to find something truly terrifying, read up on Talmudic Law....it's okay to have sexual intercourse with a gentile girl over 3 years and one day.....the life of a non Jew is worthless compared to that of a Jew. Talmudic and rabbinical law are the foundation of both modern Judaism and Christianity.
Rational people of any faith tent to take a critical look at the laws of their faith and practice what is feasible.
Again, I suggest that we recollect the Inquisition and the Crusades, and perhaps the Salem Witch burnings as a toss in, when we are claiming the Islam is a religion of atrocity.
Most Islamic conquest historically was by voluntary conversion. The Mongols mangled the Muslims and ultimately converted to Islam of their own accord. Christianity has spread by the sword.
Perahps a nice LGBT community center in the vicinity of Ground Zero would be appropriate at this point.

Feminine Alllure:
Could you please provide evidence for your statement that Islamic Centers (mosues or community centers or whatever you'd like to call them) don't honor sharia law? Sharia law is the basis of Islam. I'd really like to hear your sources.

That's akin to suggesting that Judaism generally tosses out all vestiges of Abrahamic law (talmudic law or rabbinical law) and only a few fanatical Jews attempt to abide by the law.

What's your source, please?

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/groun...he-real-issue/

paragraph four

mmmmm us vs them

This entire conversation is about us vs them. Let's re-frame the conversation. ..sometimes I like irony.......

My sisters and brothers of an Abrahamic sect (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) want to build the Cordoba House, a community center. It will serve all the people of the neighborhood, within an Islamic tradition. It is a couple of blocks from the WTC where Wahhabist terrorists, who were Saudi nationals, flew planes in to buildings. The Cordoba House has nothing to do with 9/11. It is about building an inclusive community in that neighborhood.

Notice I did not say those Islamics want to build a mosque at ground zero. That would be divisive. Notice I talked about community and taking care of each other in that little neighborhood. That is inclusive and changes the dialogue.

"Do you even know what Shari'ah is for you to Slander it as Radical and Terror-inducing?
I would Love...I mean this seriously, I would love Love LOVE to see a "non-sharia" Mosque/Islamic Community Center...."

Rook got it down 100%.

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

Um Jude that is the thread FeminineAllure Posted

She may have been attempting to answer for FA I am unsure.

I was pointing out FeminineAllures source, since you asked. I only knew because I had read the original link she put up and was aghast.

Please though, don't speak to other members like that, ok? You can be aghast too without being disrespectful.

If you'd like to come back and have a grown up conversation, please do, but this thread is not silly, nor is the subject matter a joke.

If you read my posts on the matter then you'll see clearly where I stand.

Superfemme, My apologies to you directly. I used the wrong name in my response. It was not intended for you.

I do, however, stand firmly in suggesting that the source was a pure, vile, hate site. What The entire mosque controversty (not just here, but in the news), in my personal opinion, is absurd, dangerous, pure hatred.

I've opted out of the thread after reading that link. Better things to do with my time. I do, however, apologize to you for responding to the incorrect name.

[QUOTE=Toughy;186210]FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

[QUOTE]

I KNOW! It is making me crazy that it keeps being called a mosque! Isn't it interesting, that each and every Muslim spokesperson on the media coverage going on, refers to it as a community center with a prayer room. But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

I had friends in the towers that day, some of which did not make it out as well as co-workers and friends of all of them. I have family and friends in NYC, NJ CT and in PA (all of which i do not get to see often, dammit) that live and work around this area. My 2 remaining friends connected with this group of people in my life that got out do NOT have a problem with this community center being built there at all. Nor do members of my family living there. All of them think it is time heal and that a community center with a Muslim connection may very well help do this. They also feel that the media is heating this up a lot, mainly by continuing to refer to as a mosque and not correcting stories being circulated.

I have no idea how all of the family and friends of those killed that day feel about this or the rest of the City of New York. I don't trust what has been covered about this at this point at all.

What I feel deeply is that if this center's construction is stopped, it will set precident for any Muslim building being proposed all over the US, including mosques and that is just wrong! True Muslims were not responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

hey ALH-

i highlighted the part of your post i am speaking to.
here is an interview with a woman whose pregnant daughter was killed in 9/11 that i posted earlier on in the thread.

Here is why, I keep having nightmares. The echos, of Hitler's historical rise to power, are ringing in my ears.
1) Pick someone , a religion for instance , slightly different from the mainstream , blame them for everything
2) Spread false rumors, that they eat children, abuse them, whatever, there's plenty of hot buttons out there..
3) Paint yourself as the only moral person, sworn to stop those horrible people
4) Start small, be sympathetic but, firm that although you have no real problem, for their own safety perhaps, they should wear stars .. so others can know, and truly it is for your own good

Oh yeah, make sure you don't allow anyone to practice the religion, but again, with a lot of sympathy just cite a lot of crap and incite people further
Seriously, this gives me nightmares...
That intelligent people can quote or cite, such incredibly hate mongering people, with false rumors, and call that "presenting the other side" ..scares the crap out of me...
This is how it starts..

ack...
 

If someone finds your language offensive, why not find other language to express your opinion?

Why might someone might find language (like nuts and wacko) offensive?

If one member finds it offensive, then might other members find it offensive too?

If we're having a discussion about justice and tolerance shouldn't our collective language be a reflection of that?

That much should be obvious by now, methinks. If it weren't for the repercussions of the media and American public's ignorance and fear of Islam, this situation would actually be insanely hilarious if only because of people's blatant stupidity.

Muslims: "We're going to build a community centre."
American media/public "Aaaaahhhh Mosque! Terror cell! Aaaaahhh!"
Muslims: "But...it's a community centre..."
American media/public: "How COULD you build a Mosque so close to the 911 site!?"
Muslims: "Umm....community centre?"
American media/public: "The horror of it! How could they build a Mosque! Oh god, the inhumanity!"
Muslims: "But there is already a Mosque some blocks away that has been here since before 911...and we aren't building a Mosque. It's a community centre..."
American media/public: "OH MY GOD A MOSQUE!!!! Terrorists are funding it! How can we let terrorists build a terror mosque so close to the 911 site!"
Muslims:*sigh*

A friend of mine showed me this amusing Daily Show clip. The stupidity of American news networks continues to astound me...

http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Displ...9-39b86da82f80

I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred.

You said:
"I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred."

.................................................. .................................................. ............

Thank you for your kind words. The two things I can't deal with graciously are racism and false elitism under any guise.

Noticed in this thread, and another, people seeking out "popularity". Thought that was something we get over when we're all grown up.

I'm a Jew who works for Palestinian children's relief and medical assistance. Trust me. in the Jewish community, that's not a very popular stance to take, although, thankfully, more and more Jews of conscience are standing with the people of Palestine every day.

All to say, I didn't come to this forum to make as many friends as possible. A couple or few authentic ones would be a delight.

Think that at this point we've established that there is really no difference between a "mosque" and an "Islamic Commnuity Center" any more than there is a difference between a temple and a Jewish Community Center. Both are ostensibly religious institutions that serve their own people as a spiritual, cultural and social center.
I'm not sure there's much else to say on the matter. There are magnificent, altruistic Muslims and there are crummy Muslims. Likewise, there are superb Jews with a heart and there are dreadful Jews. Certainly, things have been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ that are among the great historical atrocities of mankind. What some of us do in the name of our various faiths often bears little resemblance to what the founders of these beliefs preached and practiced.

Whenever we come upon hatred, my own belief is that it is our personal responsiblity to speak out and take appropriate action if we possibly can. Graciousness, in the face of ethnic viciousness is not, in my opinion, a personal attribute I feel the need to cultivate at this point in my life.
_

Jude, thanks for sharing your stance, history and what you do.

As a Latina, I find the targeting of brown people abhorrent and have been shocked by the Islamophobia rearing it's ugly head around this country.

What is Islamophobia if not racism, right?

As for graciousness? I get your point. Trust me on that. It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community. Or any community.

You said: "It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community...."

Agree 100%. If we don't stand up for the civil rights of another disenfranchised people, how can we expect anyone to stand with us?

I think there is a point in life when we come to realize that some people are going to like us and some people are not. It's not even a question of "well, that's their problem". It's nobody's problem. It's simply not a problem at all. That's just how it is and so what?

Thanks so much for re-posting this. I watch "Keith" often, but missed this one. Thinking that my friend, a survivor might be involved with this group. Would make sense.

I know this is a tough one for so many and I was home only a couple of days from a trip back to NYC when it hit. Just was with these friends and some family, danced at one of the music production at the Towers during lunch hour that used to go there. Frankly, I loved going to those buildings. But, we can't allow the hate-filled bigotry based upon so much misinformation take away some of the things I have hope will be restored to the US, namely our rich immigrant history and the contributions so many have brought here.