Jesus Christ.

How are you being treated like shit? I don't get how each time this particular topic comes up you come off as the wounded one I really don't. Yet you can say hurtful things.

I find that to be odd and well unbalanced.

The reality is, in my experience with Olivia and dealing with their customer service, they DO NOT want trans folks there. Awesome!! It's their business but my politics will not allow and where I stand with queer issues will also not allow this kind of discrimination.

That's me.

The end. How you can't see that it's shitty of gay folk to do to eachother I don't know.

I won't be back for a bit so I am not ignoring you if I don't post but pineapple poi got my attention.

I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.

Me either.

And here we go again.

WHERE have you been treated like shit BullDog?

See, this is how it goes. You say something. Someone doesn't agree with you. And all of a sudden, we're all guilty of lesbophobia/femaleID'd phobia/BullDogphobia/whatever.

Ugh.

Words

So 3 different members of this site had two very different experiences on an Olivia Cruise...Blaze and Isadora/citybutch.

Looking around on Olivia's website I see plenty o masculine looking lesbians.

The dash site is having a Cruise on Olivia. The confrontation over that on that website has been moved over here. The management and the customer service folks from Olivia have made conflicting statements (out of both sides of their mouth) about who is and is not welcome on an Olivia Cruise. Not that I give two shits, however I do agree with Bully that holding a b/f/t website gathering on a lesbian cruise just plain makes no sense at all. However it certainly is within their right to do so.

What troubles me is we have allowed that animosity to pit us against each other HERE. I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise.

I support Olivia's right to determine who gets on the Cruises, just like I support Mich Fest's right to determine who comes to their women's music festival. That does not mean I would be in attendance, it just means I believe they have right to do so.

It doesn't mean I would not suggest that Olivia might want to re-think their business model and perhaps hold a trans-queer-lesbian cruise once in a while. Maybe they could create more new business for themselves...the number of folks with a grand or two to use for a vacation is dwindling.

I do think it's shitty and I said so several times.

It troubles me as well Toughy.

We wouldn't :) - But I am considering selling an organ or something so we can buy our own Big Gay Boat, paint it lime green and pink, and sail all over the world having Cabarets every night.

Holy shit! I just read this whole thread and wondering if the OP expected all the lack of direct experience opinions.
Interestingly, I think less than 1% of posts actually related to an experience on an Olivia cruise...not to say that learning about a business' ethical practices is not fruitful for the mind but serious overkill on the "I won't go cause so and so" or "you'd be stopped on the dock cause such and such". The facts are often so simple for a reason...yet emotions interpret them :blink:

You know, at first I was going to just let this statement slide, but then it started to bother me a tad.
You asked this question Kobi, so I feel obligated to answer it.
I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.
You have to remember there was 22 of us. And as I had stated in an earlier post;And then tell us that we could reschedule another time??? We were on vacation, we have paid vacation hours, we can't just show up back to work and say, well can't go right now, so I'm going to work now and can you let me have next month off?!!!
We all worked, and we planned this vacation. Some. For example "Me" worked 2 full time jobs and had to get okayed to get my vacation.
Now... We asked for our money back, their response was, we can RESCHEDULE ALL OF YOU on another cruise. Well we paid to go on this one, we couldn't reschedule. We all did call the better business so that makes 44 complaints. They acknowledge our complaints. And put it down on there paper. We could have gotten lawyers or whatever else roads we may have wanted to take, but then again, we all worked. So if it's our loss, then yes, it was. My concern was not about the money anymore. It was about how we were treated. Was there any Drama involved? NO, we are respectful people, we questioned, we got their answers, and that. Is that. No secrets, no extra hate, we had enough of that. So before presuming otherwise. Ask it from the person who stated this, not hint and post. So basically you don't have to wonder now.
This was just my feelings, and what happened on "Our" experience. Not a debate about what we did wrong or right.
Thanks, Blaze

Sounds like fun to me!

OMG! Usually they avoid the waves days ahead of time! YIKES!

If you harm my brothers and sisters, I can not in good conscience condone that.

LOL , you are something else :) But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ......:| Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon ..:) Just sayin

Blaze,
Thank you for the clarification. One can see how upsetting this would be even so many years after the incident occured.

For clarification, Olivia is not a member of the BBB. When businesses are not members, complaints are not easily resolved using this avenue.

For future reference for anyone who might find themselves with travel cancellations for any number of reasons - complaints to the attorney general in the state where the offending party is licensed is always an option. It is also an option, if you charge the trip to a credit card, to challenge the charges. Travel insurance is always a good idea and Olivia does provide this.

Also helps to check the fine print too i.e. I wonder if Olivia might have a disclaimer somewhere which allows them to refuse entry for any number of reasons. Checking cancellation policies is a good idea as well. Some places will not refund or offer you an alternative date.

It was nice to see people with direct experience on the cruises share their experiences with us.

I'm still keeping my feel on land tho.

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

I must of misread somewhere along the lines but I am pretty sure this all blew up cause someone said that the opinions were lesbianphobic. Till Organic's post which was moderated, no one had..

hmmm.

Before that, it was a discussion with a whole lot of opinions SOME people did not like them and foudn them to be lesbianphobic .

True story..

:eatinghersheybar:

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community. :)
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

Thanks Toughy. I was thinking the same thing.

I spent a long time before I even posted in this thread trying to understand what was going on. I then spent a lot of time on my initial post trying to cover the issue and ask a few genuine questions.

Then when Snow pointed out there was a lot of upset that I wasn't up to speed on I went over to the other channel to try and figure things out. It took me at least a half an hour to even find the thread and another half hour to read the thread in its entirety. I saw the legitimate concerns raised over there. I also saw Transmen over there- who also are members of this community- saying they fully support lesbians having cruises but if there is going to be a butch femme event they do feel they have a right to be welcome. I completely agreed. I also saw those raising concerns being called liars and their integrity questioned.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time reading up to understand the issues and have asked genuine questions and tried to understand. I haven't called anyone any names, hurled any insults or accused anyone of anything. I have gotten a lot of nasty insults and been told I am engaging in us vs them when there isn't a shred of evidence of that in any of my posts.

Wow, I'm so glad I have spent so much of my time trying to understand only to be insulted, accused and made fun of.

:deadhorse: just saying ...

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

You are seriously accusing me of snark?

I never said non lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. People were telling me- whose been a lesbian for over 30 years- that I wouldn't be welcome on a lesbian cruise. I find that preposterous based on my experience and then non lesbians get nasty and mock me. That is what I was referring to when I said non lesbians seem to now think they are the experts.

The only thing I said was off topic was when people were hurling nasty comments at me- that adds nothing to a conversation.

Passive aggressive snark? Really? Not that you would do anything like that- like keep referring to me in the Zombie thread.

I am not a victim. I am being treated like shit for no good reason. I've put in the time to try and understand. That is apparent to some people. I have better things to do with my time than continue to be insulted.

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

I understand what strappie is saying and I understand what Toughy is ..And we can keep repeating the same thing over and over ...But some folks view things different then others ..What difference does it make if they want to call it community or not that is their individual view which happens to be different from yours ...I don't like to come in these threads for this very thing that is going on ..My words where changed around to suit the person reading My posts , now I am yet put into ANOTHER group non-lesbian WTF is next ..If I embarrass you PLEASE put Me on ignore I really don't care ..My point of view is JUST as important as yours ...

My whole point on this thread was to say that Olivia cruises HAS a issue with folks that are very masculine LOOKING ...very simple Had NOTHING to do with being a follower , had NOTHING to
do with how long one has been a Lesbian , HAD nothing to do with OTHER Lesbian events...YES some butches have been on one of these cruises , but something has changed over the years in their policy and it seems to offend some Lesbians who take their cruises ...I will say this again I am all for having Lesbian ONLY events , I understand that , have NO problem with it ...This site is not JUST for Lesbians , if it was I would not be here ..

you need to stop making me cry Toughy. :(

I understand what a business is, I worked in corporate America for many many years. I understand what you're saying. What I am saying is this: The people that are the faces of Queer/Lesbian businesses ARE my community - my sisters and brothers in the world.

When I frequent Hispanic owned businesses, and a Hispanic gives me flack for my light skin - I am hurt by my own.

So as a Lesbian, being treated like shit under the guise of "it's a business" doesn't fly for me. What I am speaking to here is what happened to Blaze, who was a Lesbian turned away from a Lesbian business for.....what? Left standing on the docks mind you.

I also understand that many people have had great experiences on the Olivia cruiseline. Aboard a ship full of their community, no?

So I understand what you are saying, I do. I'm just coming from a different place.

Business and community get confused quite often. I think that's because some business' help facilitate community for many of us, so we tend to get it confused.
For instance. The dash site was/is a business. Many people dont agree with that, never did. But I think it became quite obvious in the last two years.
What I cant stand, is a business claiming to be "community" when clearly it is not. I see nothing wrong with being a business, but say so. Community does not behave like a business, and vice versa.

Olivia cruises are a business who facilitates community. They are being specific to which community they cater to.

I think where they are going wrong is trying to dictate who and who is not a lesbian. If they want to cater to a certain demographic they need to be more specific because the term lesbian does not just apply to feminine looking women who eat pussy.

The conception of this thread started out peaceful, mind you we all threw it off course but the conversation was flowing pretty smoothly till these posts that have * on them.

****

Some people replied some did not but the convo kept going then again another post suggesting that a whole other convo was happening

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclopea (Post 186884) Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings. Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

**

Some folks replied some did not but the convo kept going smoothly and yet AGAIN :

***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclopea (Post 186913) I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

**

Then we had more convo with some replies to this, a lil administration then I opened my mouth and asked this

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 186918) I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian. Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post. So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being.. They are not trans friendly.

**

More conversation happened then another member posted the proof that Olivia had said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycfembbw (Post 187055) From: "Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM> Add sender to Contacts Hello - Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM. I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2. Thank you, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jeri Umble sr. director, customer care olivia 434 brannan street san francisco ca 94107 415.962.5700 tel 415.962-5713 fax feel free www.olivia.com

Then all that convo led to these views:

****

Which then turned into everyone was picking friends cause of who went where:

****


So *I* just had to ask wtf and I did

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 187324) This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do. If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like :| I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue. Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club. Really odd. :| PS Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

**


BTW the whole lesbian phobia was never pointed out, but then someone did make a not so nice comment and it got Moderated. So then Bully came in here not sure what was going on I EXPLAINED TWICE why the fall out.

Some people were hurt and still are because well I get some folks have been lesbians for a lot longer than some of us, now this is just me coming from *MY* space

when we say something like this

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?


The kick in the gut

"I love how non lesbians are some how the authority. "

Well I am a non lesbian, this is insulting and once again dismissing and therefore the blow out.

The person who posted this is right.

I am non lesbian, I identified with dyke when I was younger, for reasons that you don't really want to hear because if I do decide to share my experience I am 99.9% sure some people will view it as anti lesbian or lesbian phobic.

That's how the convo turned to shit, it was all fun and fluff in the beginning till people who were called liars, and be littled came in to vent cause of their hurt.

Even one member posted their experience with Olivia which was downright ugly.

But nooooooooooooo even then it looked like Blaze was getting lectured for not calling the BBB, and not checking the fine print, did not matter he was a lesbian at the young age of 22 and that when we are that age we are not as savvy as we are now in our more mature age, even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?

Facts are Mountain Star wanted to see if anyone was going on the cruise, we ALL turned into a thread about how we feel about Olivia due to other things that happened elsewhere, from there well you can basically watch the dominoes fall.

*I* still feel each time trans folk or trans issues are discussed, it somehow turns into.... Everyone is dogging out the lesbians, so not true and frankly I for one am sick of those assumptions so like someone said

I don't know what planet ya'll are living on but I live on one where I don't diss or dismiss any gay, queer, trans, lesbian or anyone that falls in the gender spectrum. PERIOD.

I entirely and completely agree with the above statement.

Me making my own decisions as a lesbian about where I will feel welcome has SHIT to do with someone else's history. I as a lesbian may feel welcomed in a place another lesbian would not. That has no reflection on another lesbians comfort level.

As to the non-lesbian comment ..........snark/sarcasm ......... something we all do on occasion...it made me snort in that kind of ironic way as ALL snark/sarcasm usually does. The snark is not some special mean I hate you shut the fuck up kind of statement, although apparently it can be taken that way.

I gotta tell ya here. I am/was feeling a bit of lesbophobia starting to happen here in this thread. Not something you can specifically quote, but none-the-less it was hovering in the background. As a lesbian I should be able to say that without having to produce a quote. It's falls in the same category as 'this feels racist, sexist, homophobic', white privilege'.

We highly object when someone who has left all of us with a feeling of racism, however there is no direct quote to produce to prove that. We will call out that racism in a heartbeat, to the bewilderment of the poster. Likely we will never be able to specifically show that poster where the racism exists in what was said.

And sometimes we are wrong (on both sides). And sometimes we are right (on both sides).

I hope anyone who decides to put themselves on a boat with 2000-3000 has a great time. The likelihood of me doing that is about zero. I am not getting trapped on a boat for a week with a bunch of strangers or friends. Besides after Jack's little post about poo and pee and other stuff spewed out of the boats in the open sea...........shaking my head...........

I don't agree with everything regarding Olivia Cruises and how some people have been treated. However I also think some people have expanded it being a lesbian cruise ship (which wouldn't include males) to saying omg if you are butch or masculine appearing they are going to be horrible to you on their boat if they even let you on and they only want femme looking woman there- which I think is quite the exaggeration. And yes I do wonder what is behind these exaggerated statements.

I'm a lesbian, go to lesbian events all the time and have so for years and years, but people who are not lesbians are telling me what would happen (based purely on conjecture) and I am the one being dismissive?

Perhaps it is my piscean nature, a dreamer of that considered utopian space. Yet, without the capacity to see a better world, for all of us, without the vision, we are doomed to sameness. Nothing changes. And, I believe that we each have a responsibility to make or contribute in some way, a better, more just world.

I think of the business owners in the old South who refused service to black people. I heard the same arguments, even after the laws passed to end it. People have a right to have whatever folks they chose in their restaurant, they said. But if we think about this critically, it is NOT about the business. The most compounded effect is upon the person/s refused. It is the suddenly found shame, the loss of dignity, the shearing of a person's or groups self worth. This is not simply a disembodied "thing", a checkbook, or barstool that we are speaking about. We are talking about real people who have feelings and who are part of our community. The Othered community. The community of the marginalized."They" are us. And however we identify, however we situated ourselves in society, IMHO, I believe that we have a responsibility, an ethical one, to care for one another in the manner of SOLIDARIDAD, and from my travels, from my witness, from my convos with my Spanish speaking brothers and sisters, this is more than lip service. It is greater than a word. It means not to simple stand with someone, but to engage from the places of the heart and the spirit.

Like I said, I'm a Pisces and can be accused of engaging in excess fantasy. Then again, there is always hope in a dream. Always a possibility. What do I know?

I am a Leo and I share a similar fantasy.

I'm a lesbian and I would have some worry that you would end up treated in the same manner that Blaze was (who was a lesbian at the time this happened). I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

I didn't once get the impression that Olivia Cruises only wants Femmes on their cruises. I did however, get the feeling that they might balk at the ratio of passengers who were butch or masculine looking being the majority.

I think it would be fair to call it conjecture had we not had a member here who lived this experience. Blaze sharing the story took it out of the realm of conjecture into the realm of fact.

Do I think this is going to happen all of the time? No.

Yet the possibility of you - my fellow community member being left standing on the docks gives me great pause.

I would be horrified.

The overuse of the binary makes me cringe. The binary is being challenged in ways that it wasn't when Olivia began doing cruises. I just wish they'd catch up rather than stay mired in the either/or.

Where is the line of delineation? If an mtf has had srs, they ARE a woman and a lesbian if they say so. (I know you disagreed with the turning away of an MTF) so hopefully you'll see my point. Where is the line of delineation when somebody feels that they were born into the wrong body? Does it start the separation at that point? Or when someone takes T? OR when somebody has top surgery? Bottom surgery for FTM's is lacking still in a successful outcome, as opposed to the MTF srs surgeries which fully change ones sex/gender.

So where does the cut-off begin?

I'm not at all against Olivia having woman only space. I am however uncomfortable with the idea that Olivia decides who is woman enough to be in that space.

The fact that I am a Lesbian and married to a trans person puts me in a strange position. It feels like my Lesbian is stripped away often because of who I love. Which is ridiculous. My partners ID has nothing to do with mine, yet as a Lesbian I cannot really participate in a cruise with my peers AND bring along the one I love. That feels shitty.

I am all for Olivia and would never ever judge anyone who went on a vacation with them. Ever. I know they have a right to their policies, however, I find them to be not quite a solid interpretation of said policies.

Who am I to judge? Nobody I guess, just another faceless person.

So in ending, I'd really like to say to you that I feel that the people who are worried you might maybe or maybe not get left at the docks are simply members of your community who stand in solidarity with you (regardless of id) and would just not want you to be treated so horribly. I don't think its a bad thing that people care, yanno? I care. I of course would send all my energy to you having a fabulous outcome, nobody wishes bad treatment on anyone. I would however, stand by your side and fight the good fight with you should you be treated in the manner that Blaze was.