Thought process?
 

In the beginning, I knew I was lesbian but had no knowledge of all the sub-cultures within the culture.

My first GF's were femme because they were my friends. My best friend & I had a sexual relationship for a few years. I always felt like something was missing-something was: profound, visceral, sexual attraction.

Then I met my ex. She rocked my world. Besides the fact that I was able to respond to her as no others before her, I learned a great deal about lesbian culture of the time.

She never felt like a girl & frankly never really looked like one either. Her mother tried desperately to make her into one. Pictures of her as a little girl really look like a little boy in a dress. When she came out, in the bar culture, her friends strongly identified as stone.

They even had an old-school word for butches that allowed sexual touch: Kiki. In her world, you were either butch or femme, you did not "swing both ways", so to speak. She did not want to be Kiki!

I knew nothing of this sub-culture when we first got together and I did not understand this but accepted it.<<disallowed word>>

Having had relationships with selfish bio men before I came out, men who always seemed to suffer from premature ejaculation; honestly I thought I had died & gone to heaven! Someone happy to pleasure me for hours on end (hey we were young!) what's to think about?!! I fell in love with her & when you love someone, you accept them for who & what they are, right?

No actual thought process about her being stone for a long time. I
missed reciprocating but accepted it- I was too busy enjoying myself & she was too.<<disallowed word>>

Stone or not, lesbian sex is lesbian sex! I am pretty much open to whatever comes my way, I try not to use labels. Regardless if was with a stone butch, butch or TG; I would still be a queer femme, the sexual identity of my partner does not change who I am.

No thought process involved at all with that.

PS: what is the "disallowed word" thing all about? I don't understand. The word fuck is not disallowed but innocuous words are?

No, it doesn't. Having your own stone boundaries around where and how you can touch your partner makes you a stone femme. For most women who ID as stonefemme, penetrating a partner is a big boundary.

You aren't defined by who you partner with. You are who you are.

<--------------- Sits back in the corner and quietly listens .

no no, you are spota help!! :)

When you have femmes debating it's just better to keep your mouth shut lol.

Always nice to see you too Cuddly.

Ahhh, I see your point, but this is the butch zone, so I, for one, would like some butch input please. :)

I recently was with this femme who was just use to what I call lesbian sex. 69 etc. She was also use to being the aggressor in the relationship(sometimes that's good :D) Well I intoduced her to my butch cock and she enjoyed the hell out of it. Don't get me wrong I use my hands and my mouth still ( have to have foreplay ya know.) I also know if you don't use your cock right it can be a turn off for some femmes. So far I haven't had any complaints lol. Hope I'm allowed to say this lol.

Sounds to me like you are a Transgendered stonebutch. I too feel like I was born in the wrong body. Wouldn't mind having my breast removed but until they perfect the other part of the ftm operation wouldn't consider that part of it. I want to still want to beable to have an orgasm. There are all different types of stonebutches and butches.

Checking back in!
 

to me there is no thought process, when i have partnered with a Stone Butch i have always known what to expect, which is awesome because i don't like surprises. when there is too much to figure out it means that something is not for you, otherwise things just flow. i knew exactly what i was looking for. there is nothing as wonderful as knowing what you want and finding it. i think...

But how did you know what to expect if not all stone identities encompass the same things? What kind of questions do you ask? Do you ask any questions at all? How could you tell you had addressed their desires, how could they tell they had addressed yours? This may sound dumb, but I'm not sure how to accomplish any of that without at least some dialogue.

Some really interesting posts, thank you for the insight. And it leads me to my next question…

Elsewhere a very young person posted that they had just discovered the term Stone, and with that discovery a lot of things started to make sense for her/hym. The person posted that until now their involvement has been only with those who identify as lesbian, and that when she/hy tries to raise the topic of how she/hy relates sexually to others they turn away. Feeling hurt and rejected, the person asked do I keep trying to explain, or do I just keep looking?

It made me think about those who have no exposure to Butch-Femme dynamics, and how because of a fear of rejection by their peer group, suppress and yearn in silence.... So, can someone id as an androgynous presenting "stone" lesbian, and find interest from a stonefemme?

Of course I have my own opinion, but am curious to hear what others might have to say.

Ooooh, i LIKE this thought!

First of all, I want to bring up something that stood out about your post. This individual is very young, and their partners turned away from them when dialogue was opened about their sexual desires.

This sounds to me like perhaps the youth and inexperience of this individual's partners caused them to behave selfishly or perhaps a bit immaturely in this case. It can be a folly of youth to subscribe to the idea that lesbianism means one particular way of being intimate (i fell into that trap once, myself). There may be a lack of information available to this person's partners, or this person's partners may not have the compassion or patience to explore different intimacies (another folly of youth I was guilty of once upon a time). Conversely, if a stone relationship isn't what worked best for them, it's probably in everyone's best interest to discover that as soon as possible.


That being said, I feel I can only speak from experience when I say I, as a femme, would have no problem dating an androgynous individual who self identifies as stone. Clearly a dialogue is in order prior to physical intimacy, but a person's sexual preferences and proclivities have never been enough to scare me away. I'll try anything twice. ;)

No problems here. Presenting as androgynous wouldn't exclude a person from consideration for me. Not being a leather top would be a deal breaker, though.

Yes I think you may be correct- youth is probably one of the contributing factors to the dilemma.

This is interesting. So should I read this to mean that it is “Stone” rather than “Butch” that is the more relevant?

I wonder if a similar perception exists for Stone Butches i.e. that the “femme” is secondary to the “stone”, that the two words are separable- allowing Stone to be attached to any ID, gender etc while still retaining its attraction.

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is more relevant than the other. There are some femmes who would prefer butch to androgyne regardless of stone identity, as well as some femmes whose preference require that their partner identify as stone.

Since this is a question that you are posing to femmes, I would have to assume that majority of those responding are attracted to butches or masculine-identified partners. Androgynes would, therefore, be viewed through the lens of masculinity, I believe. For instance, I personally would be okay with dating an androgynous partner because I do not see them as being firmly identified with femininity or the femme identity.

I think it is possible to separate all labels and use them as we see fit.

Ok I get that- please don’t take my follow up question as being a criticism – merely honest curiosity and it comes from the context of discussions that were had towards the beginning of this thread- which implied that the identity isn’t just about adding the word Stone to Butch to describe preferences in the bedroom, but in fact- was thought to be, by some (myself included), a way to describe a more holistic approach in the way that one related to the world at large.

For those of us who ascribe to the third gender belief, using “stone” with all of its assumed attributes to describe those who do not consider themselves part of the Butch- Femme community- raises some thought provoking questions.

I'm attracted to butch women. Very butch women. I'm unlikely to pay much attention to a suitor who is not butch, but if a more androgynous lesbian were to pursue me, and she turned out to be both stone and a sadistic leather top, I might get interested.

My peculiar history of loss informs my choice in this. My late partner was not stone, and didn't ID as butch when she met me. Until then, she had been strenuously suppressing her naturally masculine nature. When she met me she was encouraged to express it for the first time. Ever. Eventually she became quite comfortable, and WOW! was she ever butch! Throughout that relationship I was as ignorant as I could be about my own stonefemme boundaries. I suffered from tremendous guilt after she died. Once I found out this very important thing about myself, I decided that it would be a very bad idea to date a non-stone butch because my guilt around her dissatisfaction is still profound. My late partner presented as kinda androgynous when she met me, but the other required elements were in place. Once she was allowed to be butch, it just flowed naturally.

My late gf, (yes, I lost my gf after I lost my partner), had always IDed as butch, and was nearly stone. That was AWESOME! Of course a stone butch leather top a lot like her would be a natural fit for me, but I wouldn't rule out an androgynous lesbian who is stone, because my experience tells me that it could end up working for me.

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

I have just found my way to this site and forum ---joined a few months ago - thought I would say hi ---I am enjoying this discussion thread ---as I was just having a discussion with a co-worker today about "stone" and "transgender" ---I am stone and although I "have" had top surgery -- and have also been on T in the past ---and I most certainly feel more "male" inside ---and look fairly male as well - I know exactly how I feel and what I am - but it is hard to "put" in words for others at times ---a friend calls me 80/20 - 80%male - 20% female --:) thinks I am the best of "both" worlds ---but that doesn't always work out so well in the "real" world sometimes ---

As another poster commented - I ain't perfect - but I'm me ---and I like who I am ---I think there are as many ways to "identify" as there are people ---you just have to know who you are - be confident in that.

I am from a small community - where I am accepted (and blessed for that)- because I grew up here ---but 'understanding' or 'explaining' how I feel or identify is often times difficult ---or finding those wonderful femmes who love us stone butches ---where are you all hiding? :)

No offense taken, truly. I am currently subscribing to the belief that "stone" is a descriptor used to denote that there needs to be a dialogue between that individual and the people they interact with regarding their boundaries. From this thread I have learned that I cannot assume those boundaries to be solely sexual, if at all. I've also learned that the term doesn't solely apply to butches, and there are myriad interpretations of the word based on personal experiences. This is my working definition at the moment but I am always open to re-examining that as situations arise.



Androgynous, to me, is someone who is not easily identifiable as male or female in behavior, looks, etc. either by choice or nature.

We are we? All around, yet as femmes we are not as easy to spot as a more masculine butch/stone butch/TG may be.

Back in 1992, I read the Joan Nestle book "The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader & yesterday, my Amazon copy of Persistence: All ways Butch and Femme was delivered. If you have not yet read them, they are both wonderful.

I love the newest one and the entry by Jeanne Cordova really resonated with me. One sentence in particular: "Lonely butches, particularly from Los Angeles-the lipstick-lesbian capital of the US-said they couldn't find other butches." Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
When I say butch, I am including the continuum of all things butch-including trans.

The book also has great femme contributors with terrific writing. Hope it is OK to recommend it here-no financial gain for me!

We femmes are not hiding, it is just not always easy to spot us!

Have read the one book - but not the other - but I'm a book-aholic so shall check it out!

^ uk is even more sparse :vigil:

Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw ;)

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[/PHP]Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.

Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.

Another stone butch here. Masculine clothing, shaved head but female ID'ed. Definitely have butch c*ck though!

Good morning to the lovely femmes too that make our butch world rock.

The combination/presence of both male & female characteristics & qualities. Personally, I find it (and genderfluidity/queerness) to be a huge turn on.

:sparklyheart:

Alas I will be working Sat. :( But I hope all the lovely femmes out there have a great weekend, I know I'll make up for missing Saturday on Sunday! ;)