There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

Do you feel like in any way that this has to do with how you see trans, male IDs, FTMs or TGs?

I am not wording it well but I know what I mean. UGH.

Does your choice of not giving attention to men in general at all conflict with you in your associations with trans, male IDs, ftms, or TGs? Do you personally see it as a choice they are making?

:|

I guess this answers my questions..

With all due respect Bulldog, I was merely curious, and no ill intent was behind my question, matter of fact I asked what I know is a question a couple people wanted to ask

I just ask cause well I am curious and I am not scared nor intimated into not asking difficult questions.

No one asked you to leave.. Just clarifying that as well.

Dylan, I am not being the slightest bit defensive. I never said I didn't say anything- that actually doesn't make sense. I think this is derailing the conversation. So please enjoy your conversation. I am taking a bow- and no I am not "quitting" or leaving in a huff. Enjoy your conversation.

No I understand. No offense taken. I think the dialogue between me and Dylan is not productive and is derailing. I will read the upcoming convo.

It is a queer site, it is very welcoming to all kinds of genders and sexes... but it is a Butch Femme queer site which by it's very nature (nobody jump me I'm not saying "natural") is female and lesbian orientated and historical roots is based in women's history. That's just a reality and not someone's attempt trying to keep anybody out... I personally think we're a very open site.

Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Anyway I don't see why people in some instances seeing a difference whatever as that may be as their experience (though I don't agree with generalizations) as a big problem.

I've heard a couple transmen (agreed not many want anything to do with it) have expressed they feel they "get" women more, and they honor and value much of the part of their lives before transition, and I don't think that makes them any less as men... that may also be how some people view a difference between some transmen and men who aren't trans.

Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships? Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care? If he does, shouldn't he be the one to deal with it? I think when someone paints these scenarios as some femme who doesn't see her guy as a real man and he just folds to it, it makes it real hard for them BOTH all around because your putting your spin on their relationship.

Also you started this up with, transmen aren't some duality of genders and anymore sensitive than whatever, I agree most seem to feel that way... but to go on to drag all kinds of people into the mud, femmes who've experienced transman as more sensitive is inferring somehow they're not real men, questioning the motives of couples who've referred to each other in a way that Dylan doesn't like, then the whole B-F community cause maybe it's their fault for putting the screws to trans couples and pulling queer cards (really?), and female ID's are the most sexist talking people around (worse than roofers even).

This is all off the top of my head and sure talk about anybody you want however you want but then you want to complain about generalizations?

Anyway I know transmen who want to be recognized as transmen, who make a distinction between between themselves, experiences and feelings and men who aren't of a trans experience.

I just feel like if you want people to call you a man, that's fine, scream it from the rooftops, but I don't think it's necessary to make it out that this community just doesn't respect transmen... all transmen are different (just like the rest of us human beings) and I don't think we should start referring to anyone by just one person's personal preferences.

Transmen are a piece of this community, and should be respected as such but it works both ways and the community, femmes, butches of any ID, no one should be dragged through the mud to make a point anymore than they should. Whether you think you are doing that... I'm just saying what it looks like too me.

And, personal level... I never have responded well to people going around in demanding tone that I respect their "man-ness". Again personal level, I have respect for transmen, men, males... just not just that scenario. That tends to just get a "get over you bad self" reaction from me. How about if I just call you Dylan and think of you as male... cause that's what I usually do with guys here who have a transition experience.

Metropolis

An add... "formerly female"? Never ever seen that to sum up transmen... could have missed it, who knows... I agree it would seem disrespectful depending on the context.

And, Snow... I know that was to Bull, but in my experience I've never ever started a thread about FIB where males of whatever ID trans included didn't come in with their "pov".... many times in droves.

Thank you for your kind response Met!



oh and I did not address Bulldog directly.

*I* asked a question to all... not just her

I do think (and see) that there is some weird system in place where whenever people are talking about identity x people from identity y tend to take all the talk about identity x as a personal affront to identity y.

In fact, I have had more than one person pm me to say that they feel like every time they try to honour people from identity x that people from identity y take that as some sort of an insult or a dig. When in reality the two aren't related in any way at all. I can give respect to identity x all I want, and resent the implication that my respect for identity x is a presumed dislike of identity y. That's simply not the case.

And before anybody thinks that I'm talking about them personally - I'm not. I've heard/seen it both ways. The males on this site think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome the females are, thin people think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome fat people are, Conservatives think they're being dissed when Democrats talk about how proud they are to be Democrats. It's really very silly.

I get that sometimes people DO put a "what I am is awesome because what I am is not what you are" spin on celebrating who they are. But that is not always the case. In fact, I would wager that that is frequently NOT the case.

When Dylan (for example) says that he does not want to be viewed as female, formerly-female, female-ish, reminiscent of female, female with facial hair, etc....he is not saying that female is bad. He's simply saying that he is not female by any stretch of the imagination. If he is offended by being seen as some sort of female - it's not because he thinks that female is bad...it's simply because he's not female. It's because the person isn't seeing HIM but rather seeing the version of him that they would prefer to see. Get it?

If this were another thread and I was to say that "Big Is Beautiful" that does not imply that I think that thin is grody. It just doesn't.

You and I have disagreed on this before, and we'll continue to disagree on this. Butch-femme culture is NOT lesbian/female only. It never has been.


Firstly, I'm wondering why you're speaking for femmes. And this is something I often wonder. There are a number of femmes participating in this thread, and with the exception of Adorable, they've all laid into me at one time or another. I don't think they need you or Bulldog to protect them from me. IF a femme feels anyway, I'm sure she/he/per is quite able to speak up.

Secondly, I never said it was a 'just femme' thing or only femmes do this or that. It's been inferred and/or assumed by others that I said that, but I didn't. I've even clarified that two or three times so far.

Thirdly, part of the issue I'm having is WHY some people might wonder why there's a man on this site. AGAIN, WHY does a transman *have* to identify himself (or be identified by someone else) as TRANS? This is a QUEER community. QUEER doesn't mean 'women only'. BF doesn't mean 'women only'. There are queer men on this site. WHY is it so threatening (that people would 'wonder') why there's a man here? Following through with this line of reasoning...why is it 'safer' if it's a TRANSman as opposed to another man?

You just said, you don't know of any cismen on this site...so then, why do transmen ALWAYS have to ID as TRANS first?



It's funny that a couple/few weeks ago, in the Men With Boobs thread when I stated I thought the conversation of what Cynthia Nixon had to say was not worth having, you came in and put me in my place about me weighing in on determining what is and isn't important to butches. I can pull the post if you want me to. You don't even know if I identify as butch or not, yet you felt compelled to tell me it wasn't MY place to determine what an important conversation is to butches.

Yet here you are determining what is and isn't a 'big problem' for transmen.

How does that work, Met? No one gets to speak for butches, and men don't get to speak for femmes, but met gets to speak for butches, transfolk, men, and femmes.

I've laid out what the problem is...but you want to defend people's right to erase others.

Great if some transmen feel that way. I certainly don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is people basing ALL of Transdom on what a 'couple' transmen have to say about how they feel.

[quote]Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships?
I don't...I've stated that plenty of times in this thread, and the thread that sparked this conversation

Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care?
I don't. I'm commenting in the same fashion that you're commenting on what you've experienced. And I'm wondering about some things. I wonder about a lot of things, Met. Again, I've stated that numerous times

Um, I have no issue with One's PERSONAL experience. Again, I've stated that numerous times. If One has encountered sensitive transguys, fanfuckingtastic! Let the skies part and angels blow trumpets...yippee.

My problem lies (again, as I've stated about a bajillion times now), when those personally experienced attributes get chalked up to ALL transmen as though they're inherent characteristics. You know, just like you get a little pissy when someone says, "Butches are just men with boobs"

And yeah, when that generalization of (let's say) sensitivity gets linked to being a 'feminine/woman' trait, and transmen are then told that because it's a feminine/woman trait, it must link back to their special knowledge of women and being a woman, and now that men's IDs as men are erased, and they're referred to as 'two-spirited'...I have a problem with that. I just wanted to repeat it one more fucking time, because apparently typing it out 100 times isn't a good enough explanation. It's still going to get misconstrued. It's funny that you tell me I'm dragging all of this out and repeating it 100 times, yet it still seems you haven't even read it once.

And unless you think it's ok to say something like, "I see butches as male, because they're so masculine, and being masculine is a male thing"...I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

I didn't 'question' anyone's motives, Met. That's a little melodramatic, no? I *wondered* something. Same as you wonder things.

And yeah, Met...'pulling queer cards' happens. It happens to those who partner with transguys. It happens to butches who date men. It happens to those who've been married. It happens to lots of people, Met. If it's not YOUR personal experience, then it's not. But yeah, Met it happens. It's happened to my current partner and my previous partner on these sites. It's happened to friends of mine on these sites. And I've heard it too. So really, I don't even understand why you're arguing someone else's personal experience. Others in this and previous threads have stated the same thing. IT'S AN ISSUE, even if it's not an issue for you personally. Same as he-ing all butches is an issue.

And yes, in my personal experience (as I stated earlier), I have experienced the most sexist comments coming from FIBs. Sorry if that bothers you, but yeah, it's true. I've said it numerous times throughout numerous threads. I've even started threads about it. The first one I started was YEARS ago. So, yeah, it's my personal experience.

Great. Me too! What's your point?

Make it out like this community doesn't respect transmen? Ahhh, yes, because calling out some equals calling out a whole community. Also, why is calling out an ism/phobia considered a bad thing, Met? Why is that.

And this isn't about me, Met. This isn't 'just one person's personal...'. Others have stated the same thing...which started this whole particular conversation in the first place.

Also, being that you're not a man or a transman, I don't understand why you think you get to weigh in on it. I mean, lest we forget, even though you don't know if I ID as butch or not, you've decided I'm not allow to weigh in on Cynthia Nixon or her commentary on Men With Boobs. So, again, what's with the almighty double standard?


Pardon The Formatting, I'm Too Busy To Fix It,
Dylan

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

No, you're not off topic. :)

**cough**
 

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

Oh cripes Dylan. As far as weighing in, I didn't weigh in AS a transman or even AS a (insert identity of choice here), but as a community member which you yourself brought "the community" into the conversation with your comments about the community.

This last paragraph by you I've quoted is a good enough example to me that you would rather dismantle and put you're add ons and spin to what I've said rather than to the conversation at hand... which is not about me Dylan.

What I said, it's all there for people to read decide for themselves what my message was... or they can agree with you... they can also check out the men with boobs conversation and see what I actually said.

I choose to leave it as it all stands as it speaks for itself... if you want to tell everybody what I meant and what I do that's your thing.

I'm sure you have a lot of valid things to say Dylan but sometimes it gets lost in the (apparently looks like to me) personal stuff.

Metro

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

This is where it gets icky for me and I bounce out of the convo.. I watch this and *remember* the beginning of what started a rush fire of label and gender threads. I think that is AWESOME, but now with all this and all this finger pointing on who is more welcomed here than whom I must say it's yucky. I can't understand why there can not be a conversation in a queer space without it turning into what is going on here.

Can't just everyone have space here?

I am truly curious cause I can't see how we want the straights to accept us when we can't even fucking be nice to one another.. That means all of us...

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do

i would not go into a chest thumping thread in the trans zone and be squicked or criticize. There are such threads. i don't read them. i personally have no problem with their being there.

But let's say there was a lot chest thumping all over the place -- by whatever gender. That would alter my experience of the site. i would be less interested in it. Unless i am acquainted with the chest thumper, that stuff is sometimes triggering to me.

i don't want to experience that OR make the other person feel bad.

i just wanted to quote this because i really appreciated it. Thanks!