I am not at all in disagreement with your looking at these things from this perspective - I actually tend to get really excited when people start talking the way you're talking. I guess I think of human beings as pack animals like other primates. I don't know nearly enough about primate pack behavior, but I do think different people have different roles and functions within the given pack. Though I am not wholly satisfied with the ennagram, it's one of those systems I think about a lot when it comes to how humans relate and why. I do think there are kind of built-in pack behaviors that fall somewhere between "we all act this way for the exact same reason" and "we are all special individualist snowflakes acting for reasons entirely unique to ourselves."

Hmm I think I misread this statement: "it's useful (to my thinking) to consider the root of *all* the reasons"

I read it as looking for the each root for each of the reasons, but now I think you are saying there is one root to all the reasons?

Maybe that root *is* competition - I definitely can't say you're wrong.

Going back to what I was saying about primate pack behavior -

I think pack behavior is a combination of herd behavior and hunting behavior. Herds (and schools of fish even) survive by rejecting the members that are different or hurt and by always trying to stay close to the center so they won't be picked off. (I'm not a scientist here, maybe I'm missing some steps).

Group-hunting requires more different roles within a group. You have to have the caretakers, you have the observant types, the aggressive types, the peacemaking types, the strong group-cohesion types, the industrious, the inventive, the single-minded, the balanced-minded, the perfectionists, and the people to say, "that's not going to work!", etc. Any one of those types can exhibit a behavior and it can be for a reason more specific to their type.

Empathy itself is not something universally experienced (from what I understand) but reactions to feelings of empathy are also various. Some people just want to get away from whatever is causing them to have an uncomfortable feeling, others attack, others seek to comfort, etc.

I don't know if I have a real working theory here, but I agree with you that for the most part we are as humans coded by evolution to create progeny and ensure that progeny's survival, so even though most of us in this community don't create progeny, I definitely think it makes sense that we are encoded as humans.

Where I feel like you and I might differ is what the very rootiest root part is to all those various behaviors. It very well may be competition, but I rub up against the need for group cohesion and the advantage of multiple roles and cooperation very quickly when I try to go down that route. If we were only competitive, wouldn't we have just killed each other off by now? Heh. I guess maybe there's a real competition between Hobbes' "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short" idea of every person for theirself (pronoun ugh) and the idea that pack and social cooperation and cohesion are so innate to the species.

Hey - my googlefu tells me Hobbes at least gave 3 reasons for human conflict:

competition, diffidence and glory. The first maketh men invade for gain; the second, for safety; and the third, for reputation.

If I had to choose one of those reasons as the rootiest one, I might go first with safety. But it might competition is nice and would suffice. :)

I don't know if I've said anything at all here that makes sense, but I have this uncontrollable impulse to hit "Submit Reply" and get out of the quicksand I find myself in. ;)

Now, don't think I'm trying to call you out on something because 1 - I like you and 2 - I don't know your specific situation or behaviour.

But I have to wonder at what point what we are calling protectionism crosses over into possessiveness?

I know I've been with plenty-a-people who have been all irate about "that person was too close" "they were behaving inappropriately" "that was disrespectful to you and me and our relationship and your favourite orange cat" about situations that I -really- did not feel was a big deal at all.

It's actually pretty annoying. Especially considering that it's pretty clear that if I felt someone was violating my bubble or being inappropriate I am more than capable (and willing! I would do it with glee!) to take care of that shit on my own.

I know what you're saying...and I totally agree with you. That shit drives me batty too.

To be clear, from my ME place...I don't have a problem with my partners talking to, flirting with, hamming it up with, whatevring with anyone else. I don't have a problem with people coming over to talk to my partners. That would be gross.

If my partner is done talking to you...I expect you to go away. If she has to tell you twice, I'm gonna have a problem. You'll get a third strike, and then ima say something.

And what I've noticed...and what drives me crazy is femmes (usually) have to repeat themselves a few times...but I only have to say something once. The first time is (usually) ignored. The second time a femme says something, she's (usually) giggled at or mocked or patted on the head. And yet, I only have to say something once. And this has happened with a number of femmes I've known who have been partners OR just friends. It happens with men and straight (or queer) women also.

I could give some examples if need be, but I'm definitely not talking about being a possessive freak. I'm talking about the way femme's boundaries are often trampled on (even if they're the loudest mouthed, toughest, alpha-y femme in the world...which most of my femme friends/partners tend to be), and they get patted on the head for being 'so cute' when they stick up for themselves.


Hope I'm Somewhat More Clear,
Dylan

where are all these bubble-invasions taking place?????

curious.

Well I can tell you, for me, they happen all the time and when I set boundaries some people get pissed off ms pretty..... Though I would like to discuss this, I find it to be more of a topic that should be in one of the femme threads.

Does that mean you're asking for an example?

Would you like online or real time?

It's interesting to me that I would have to give an example (I'm more than willing to...don't get me wrong) as this is the basis of both male and masculine privilege.


Dylan

I kind of think it sort of ties into the beginning of this thread cuz I think it affects how conversations go between butches and then men of the site, because it does change dynamics of conversations, and I think it leads to the 'save the femmes' placating that tends to happen in conversations...and then the slew of 'you are all so wonderful' fawning invasions that happen from both femmes and butches

"See this is why I love alllllllllllllll butches, cuz..."

"And that's why we love allllllllllllll femmes...cuz they just get us blah blah gag"



Dylan

This made me think about how I have had at least one femme friend begin to refer (within the context of ranting about her ex) to that individual by his biological feminine name in discussing him with me, while during the relationship she referred to him by his masculine name of choice. At the time I didn't call her out on it because I gave her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps she wanted to refer to him with more formality and distance. But now reading this thread and reflecting on some of the issues, it becomes more clear to me that this kind of dissing really is always on some level about disrespecting gender presentation, and I don't want to participate in tolerating it, no matter if a friend is angry and ranting or not. This kind of deep disregard for someone's identity is never okay.

well, considering i really don;t have anything in common with anybody, i don't think about building friendships. just speaking for myself.

Just a thought, but perhaps, if you were to build friendships, you'd come to discover that you have a lot more in common with others than you think you do?

don't get ALL

what i meant was, *people* are generally invasive of personal space--unless they're not.

there are those of us that are aware and cautious of invading space and crossing boundaries and there are those of us that are UNaware and think nothing of being called out again and again and again for crossing lines (hey, maybe they even take some sort of pride in how "edgy" or "way cool with everything" they consider themselves). but do you really think it's just butches doing this? do you think you're more aware/protective because you're dating a femme (and notice that butches are in her bubble)?

i think it's not so gender specific--there have been feminine women who've said (and done) some really off-putting things to me, there have been men who i've been absolutely disgusted by (and to be fair, i'm more critical of some men), and yes i've experienced posturing-butch and "drunk-stranger-butch-rubbing-his-cock-on-me" --but he was so sloppy drunk and so pathetic (and GROSS) that i waited until we'd left to tell my then-bf (and moved to where my butt was not in his cock-reach) because i didn't want my then-bf to punch him out/go to jail.

again, i think we're all capable of god-awful inappropriate and stupid behavior, i just don't think this bubble-invading is specific to the masculine. or i need to get out more as i'm unawares ;)

I don't remember saying bubble invaders were any gender.

Also, I'm not just talking about someone 'standing too close to you at the grocery store' which is how I'm interpretting your interpretation of my words.


Dylan

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here! :readfineprint:

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...




Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving :|

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.





See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

Hence why I made the post about Metropolis community thread, I chose the wrong wording, my intent wasn't clear, and the space I put this in.

I should of thought it thoroughly.

Though I do have to at this point, this far into the thread, it's an everyone voice and it's been working, or we can have Linus yet again put it elsewhere so everyone is happy.

I for one, am signing out for the day I have bigger issues.

Snow,

I wasn't saying you were priviliged. No, I apologize if it seemed that way!

I am sorry you are dealing with so much, so I'll keep this short, as you are in our thoughts, as is Super Femme.

Thanks for responding, truly.