I know for myself a lot of the frustration and confusion comes when trying to define my partner's gender within the context of male and female. Sometimes it is more defining what he is not. He is not a woman. Never was and never felt like one. He is a transmasculine butch. That is his gender. Not female. Not male. He has legally transitioned and yet still retains butch as his gender. He does not use the term FtM to define himself.

If feels uncomfortable to me when we discuss how others choose to change their bodies. The problem I have seen with the Harry Benjamin guidelines is that they are too rigid in defining gender and the wide range that encompasses.

Well, I have had the same difficulty as HB with understanding the term male identified butch, whereas TG Butch has always made sense to me. I am not sure they mean the exact same thing and it will vary from individual to individual. I have always associated male= biological sex and man/woman/butch/femme etc = gender, so male being used in what seems to me to be gender terms does confuse me.

I just got into the habit that if someone says they are male then I consider them male. It doesn't have to do with biology, surgery, transitioning, hormones, etc. It has to do with who they say they are. Not everyone has the same options or makes the same decisions based on how to align their physical body and legal status with their gender, biological sex or physical body attributes. I think many who consider themselves to be male id'd butches- it is more about their mind than actual physical body, or where the two meet. Ender did talk about that.

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not. ;)

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I have heard about your Club Wotever. If I ever make it to London I am SO going there! Sounds fantastic! (As does the rest of your queer culture).

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

I agree with what you've said and that there is probably more to biological sex. But I just wanted to make a note on the last bit. There is also a scientific basis for "brain sex" or neurological sex. In the last decade or so it's been found that those born in biologically female bodies who consider themselves male tend to have somatostatin neuron numbers in the brain in the male range (men have double the number that women have), while biologically born males who consider themselves female have numbers in the female range. So there does seem to be a scientific basis in the feeling of maleness or femaleness despite biological sex or being neither one. I think it would be interesting to see further studies, since, as we've all discussed here, the spectrum of identification goes beyond male and female and there are likely answers regarding how we identify in all of our brains.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the popularly viewed importance of reproductive organs.

@HowSoonIsNow, I don't think that it is necessarily all that recently that the term butch has expanded or that butch has always necessarily meant masculine lesbian. Just thinking of Stone Butch Blues (as far as I remember, Jess talked about not feeling like a lesbian, not feeling female or male but something else. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, my memory's foggy) and even some of what's been said by prominent butch or tg authors, people around these sites, at conferences like Butch Voices (from what I've had the chance to see of the conference on youtube...would love to go one day) as well who talked about the butch/femme scene in the 50's, 60's, 70's as well as how both older and younger butches see their identity. I can't say out of personal experience, I wasn't there, but that's what I've gathered from hearing and reading what others who were have had to say. Maybe those who did not identify as lesbian were not the majority of the butch population in the past, but from what I gather still present. Just as male id'd butches today are pretty much a minority among those who do identify as butch, but still present.

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.