I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Yes, i do follow. Do you follow me?

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

No, this is not what "we" do. If you like I can direct you to plenty of valid sources that would rebuttal that statement.

Those "guys" got in to the US legally. Imagine that! And they got into the US legally even after the 1996 law which was a freaking joke!

They got pilot licenses because they passed the requirements to be pilots, they were not required to see if they were terrorists. That was the job of the CIA and FBI, at which they failed miserably, but that is a whole other thread.

Anthony McVeigh, I am sure you have heard of him, he is a terrorist and an US born citizen, go figure!

Again, had those terrorist been asked papers they would have shown they were legal US residents, so what is your point?

To bring 911 into this conversation is ridiculous. It is what the Bush administration and Republicans tried to do for 8 years and look where that got us.

Facts, and statistics show that most, if not all undocumented immigrants come to the US just for the very fact Gemme mentioned.

Few immigrants, legal or undocumented are terrorists. I have facts to back that statement.

"at the border" is the big difference...

it does happen, we just don't live there...
 

i don't want to live in north korea, do you?

this was pretty big news august, 2009.

Former President Clinton Headed Home from North Korea with Journalists
Clinton Spokesman Says Former President Homebound, with Ling and Lee Onboard.

Former President Bill Clinton ended his surprise trip to North Korea today, bringing home the two Asian-American journalists who had been jailed in the secretive nation, after he helped negotiate their pardons.

Bill Clinton, along with Euna Lee and Laura Ling, touch down at Calif.
Clinton spokesman Matt McKenna verified Tuesday evening that Clinton "has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee" and was "en route to Los Angeles where Laura and Euna will be reunited with their families."

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Il today ordered the release of jailed U.S. journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee through "a special pardon," the country's state-run news agency reported Tuesday.

North Korea's Central News Agency said Clinton took a surprise trip to the country to negotiate Ling and Lee's release apologized for the two female journalists "illegally crossing the border and committing a grave crime against our nation."

Ling and Lee's families said in a joint statement they are "overjoyed by the news of their pardon."

link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Inter...8245688&page=1

wow that's really racist. what back of who's van? so should we target van-drivers? is there a certain type of van, a particular color of van we should be on the look out for? there's lots of mormon van drivers, do you think they want to be stopped and questioned about who they've got riding in their vehicle?

it's utterly irresponsible and misguided to suggest that racism is okay cuz i'll have some papers to show when i'm stopped, the point is that the bill is racist in nature, the bill already divides a fractured community--it stinks of jim crow laws and nazi germany. being white/passing for white doesn't give anyone the okay to ignore racist legislature--bigotry/hate/suspicion hurts everyone, erodes and divides its people.

I'm on my way out for the evening, but I just had to stop by and laugh my ass off over this comment.....

i didn't think playing devil's advocate worked out well for you in the past, perhaps it's time to give it a rest when it comes to ANY thread that touches on race? it's disrespectful to 'play' at what many of us are *living*.

and also, forgive my skepticism, i'm having a super hard time thinking your posts are just about 'devil's advocacy' when you've advocated prior for waving the confederate flag as a symbol of southern heritage, and now here, a proponent of showing *papers* and suggesting immigrants arrive to this country, 'unlike americans', by van--that's really awful close to *othering* immigrants and saying they 'swam across', and other derogatory ways that racists refer to mexicans.

Hey All,

I just wanted to come in here for a bit and gently remind folks that this topic is a heated one, and that there are some high emotions running through this thread. I think that's healthy and appropriate when dealing with political matters that have racist connotations.

I hope we can keep discussing the *issue* and not the person writing about the issue. Let's all make sure that we aren't being personal when addressing someone.

For instance, I think it is perfectly fine for someone to say, "Hey, that thing you said just now was really racist" and give examples of why they feel that way.

I think it is fine for the other person to respond, "Actually no, I don't feel that it's racist and here's why..."

What is not ok, is taking the conversation in a personal direction because other people are trying to participate as well and we want to talk about the *issue* and not JUST people's personal racism. If we need to talk about the racism (and clearly, we do...I think we can do that constructively). Ok?

This isn't a mod, per se, just wanted to make sure we stay on track.

In the immortal words of Ozzy Osborne, "Love you all: You're all fucking mad."

me

It is my understanding that there are no border checkpoints where you have to show papers in any of the countries that belong to the European Union.............meaning you can go to Germany from France and not be asked for papers.

So let's say we all go with your idea... Here we are all the browns carrying documentation around so we can *prove* we belong here as much as say.

You do..

Allow me to play devils advocate..

We are both from let's say....


Spain..

I happen to be darker, you happen to have light hair light eyes..

We both don't have our papers.... NONE...

*I* get pulled over, pulled out the car asked for my documentation, you don't get asked nothing cause well you just don't look it... Don't look like the type...

I get detained you sent on your merry way... So while I am detained I get the *special* treatment, kinda like my Ma did..

TADA come to find out, we are from Spain but have been residing here since 72 legally but this one time I forgot to bring the bulks of paperwork with me, and since I did not have THAT on me, now I have to tuck my horrific experience aside and worry about fucking suing?

FUCK THAT!

*You* have no idea what it is like to be pulled over by a cop who is having a bad day Jess.. Why? I am going to assume you are not of color, here is why I am assuming, cause you suggested we just sit back and take it and sue if we don't have documentation..

Really?? I belong here just as much as you do, I should have to be able drive a car without fear, walk the street without being hunted, cause frankly this is what this is, a witch hunt of sorts..

So no your *I am playing devil's advocate* falls a lil on the short side of justice.

Why?

Cause sometimes, some trigger happy joe do gooder thinks he is *Super Avenger* and may decide the day he spots an *illegal* that that *illegal* and his billy club have a date.. Yeah no thanks.... Suing ain't gonna bring Jose Luis Chacon back if he is mortally injured, no amount of fucking money is gonna bring that family their boy back, or brother, or husband.. If you are naive and think that won't happen, lemme tell you I laugh cause it happens now... *I* know...

I think about this so much. How thin the line is...if there is one at all...between being a religious zealot and being incredibly mentally ill.

OMG. People are crazy.

I get what you are saying, but those movies were about Nazi Germany, the DDR and the USSR. Fascist countries. I don't want us to be that.

For me, I want the United States of America to welcome immigrants however they get here. No one would leave their home to risk death to get here if they did not really want and need a new life. The only people who have the right to complain in my book are the actual Native Americans.

When I was a kid in Argentina, I was a total space cadet and forgot my papers a lot. My parents were a wreck. It was a huge deal. Kids are often the ones targeted. What if Christie's son were in that situation and forgot his papers and got carted off to some camp and you could not find him. Can you imagine? This is what happens to people.

To get to the UK by tunnel you would need truly heavy equipment :)

Yes, there is immigration, but you don't get asked for papers on the street. Different issue.


I have a friend who was here in the US as a refugee from Brazil for being persecuted for being Gay.

Fred Phelps and his gang went to count so that people who were here in the US under the same refugee status as this young artist would all be deported. He is in hiding now, I have no idea how to see him. I can only imagine how scared he is.

The US is actually very picky about who they give asylum to.

The people who bombed the towers came here legally and stayed longer, they did not come over a border illegally.

If this is about keeping us safe, why are we only worried about immigrants with darker skin? Why not Canadians, the Irish.....

Think about how bad things would have to be for you to leave your home, and walk with your family with only the things you can carry for thousands of miles, across international borders, mountains, deserts and rivers to get somewhere you can be safe and be a part of the great "American" dream and you find out the US is changing into a Fascist Police State...and that there will never be that dream for you. There will never be a fresh new start. Why? Because your skin is darker.

Will you really think about it? I am so not bashing you or arguing for the sake or argument. You seem compassionate about so many things, can you really say you feel none here? :)

I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.

June brings up an interesting parallel.

I did some research on my heritage just out of curiosity over the last few years. After finding several branches of different heritages for my family (that included Ouchita and Blackhawk First Nations, as well as Irish and Scottish descent, and even several African American ancestors), I decided to start researching each branch in order to get a clearer picture of who I am made of.

When I went into depth researching my Irish heritage, I came across an account of a woman who would have been some degree of cousin to me who came over here from Ireland during the famine in 1846 (or thereabouts). People were starving to death, there was no work, and according to what I read, this distant relative of mine was *alone* when she made the journey. She *also* apparently gave birth within a month of arriving here in America, which meant that she was HUGELY pregnant when she was crammed in steerage, rocking on a dirty, disease-ridden boat.

The accounts of what I found are pretty shady for a few years after she arrived but I did find that she somehow made her way to the Virginia area and worked as some type of servant.

There are a LOT of historical writings that talk about the foul treatment of "The Irish" (and many other cultures) who arrived here in America around that time. How they were shaved because of headlice, how they were exploited for cheap labor, how the women were often raped or ended up working as prostitutes to support themselves.

And honestly? "My People" haven't been here that long. Since 1846? Thats about 150 years...NOT a long time. A few generations at most.

I could be considered a white "anchor baby" if this country were full of brown folks in power who were using their privilege and racism to try to keep hold of their power like I see a lot of white people and "The System" doing.

I think that I would personally like to see the Tea Partiers, Republicans, White folks, or anyone else who screams "this is my country" the loudest do a little research on exactly where they came from. Because last I checked? This "country" was inhabited by Indigenous Peoples who were brown before a bunch of white folks started coming over here claiming they "discovered" a continent that had been inhabited by brown folks for thousands of years.

I would like to see all of us remember that this country was built on the premise of immigration and "a better life" for anyone who wanted it. Sure, the immigration system is broken in 100 different ways but a great many of us are only three, maybe even two or one, generation away from "Illegal Immigrant" ourselves.

Just an FYI....there seems to be a misguided boycott drive against AriZona Tea. That company was started by a couple of guys from Brooklyn, and it's always been in NYC.

AriZona Teal has zero zip zilch to do with the state of Aizona, it just has an unfortunate name.

Here is some more info on that:

http://www.nilc.org/pubs/news-releases/nr010.htm

Alas, though you and I personally are not responsible for the poverty to the South of us, it is the fault of the US, both diplomatically and economically.

I don't have time to locate the sources to quote right now, but American Companies looted those countries and the US goverment has meddled way more than the CIA would have you know.

Also, sadly, there are places that poor in the USA, some of them in my state.

I agree completely that no one back in the 1800's or now takes leaving their home to come to the US lightly. I think it sucks to hear that so many people do not/did not welcome them.

:) cool!

Most of the problems the US has now are self created which for me is why I makes me even more brokenhearted when people like you said think "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away"

I've read so many excellent pieces about the rise in "illegal" immigration from Mexico, resulting from the many inherent flaws in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), signed into law by my buddy, Bill Clinton, in 1994.

Unfortunately, my powers of recall are virtually non-existent. But I do know that NAFTA essentially forced Mexico to import more agriculture products from the U.S. like corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they grow themselves just fine, but that happen to be HEAVILY subsidized by the U.S. government, and thus are much, much cheaper.This basically wiped out the already-struggling poor Mexican farmers, which is one of the primary causes of increased immigration in the last 16 years. Before Bill Clinton...I mean, NAFTA...you didn't hear about people dying in the desert in the hope of making it to the land of hope and dreams for a better future. Nobody was talking about building walls to keep people out, either. NAFTA definitely started the ball rolling...

(Pretty good summary of NAFTA and its flaws from CounterPunch this past January: http://www.counterpunch.org/gallagher01012010.html)

But the fact that Arizona has been one of the states hardest hit by the U.S. housing collapse has led directly to this crazy new law there. Folks in AZ have lost their houses at an alarming rate, and who is always to blame at times like this, when everything is going to hell? THOSE people -- "it's THEIR fault I don't have a job, it's THEIR fault my house has lost 75% of it's value! Them and the GAYS! Let's get 'em!" A story as old as time itself...

(Article from Salon yesterday about the British Prime Minister calling a constituent a bigot, but makes a broader point about how bad economic policies lead some people to lash out at others different from them, and also mentions Arizona: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...ion/index.html)

Thank you Kat! Yes indeed.

But US meddling goes wayyyy father back.

The US and US companies have meddled in pretty much all of South and Central America since there has been a US.

United Fruit Company, UFCO, owned huge tracts of land in the area of now is (to mention a few) the Bahamas, Cuba, Costa Rica, Columbia, Ecuador, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. They built and controlled 100% of transportation and communication in these countries and established who ran them and who got to work.

The Panama Canal, we took the land from Columbia and created the Canal Zone, which only recently was allowed it's independence.

Cuba? Between UFCO and organized crime (Mafia), Cuba is now communist because of the US. Period.

Honduras?

Nicaragua?

Chile?

Argentina?

The CIA and the US government in my lifetime has been all up in coups and trying to run everything.

The raping of these countries has gone on for 200 years, and we now want to harass everyone with brown skin who "might" be from a country we destroyed for their papers. Papers some think it should not be a big deal for them to carry and use as examples Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I really am almost (heh) speechless.

OK OK, I actually could go on and on about why the problem of undocumented workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, Central & South America is the fault of the USA.

The US created the mess and the US needs to fix it.

The war on drugs in not the answer.

The war on undocumented workers not the answer.

War makes it sound like there is an enemy which should be defeated...but the enemy is and has been the US in this disaster.

Don't make me pull out my US Diplomatic History textbook now....;)

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail! :)

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

What a great article, thank you so much for posting it. I have been so angered by all te other elements of this, that I have forgotten the feminist angle and how women are more targeted and way more likely to be raped.

Also, it talks about the history of the Southwest.

Very interesting! Thanks again!

It is headed to Maryland Now