I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

I prefer to skip, but can be convinced to leap I supposeee...

I fall within the 'lesbian' category, but I like femme dyke more :) A redheaded, geeky, curvy femme dyke :1femme:

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians. :confused:

I had that sort of thing happen to me too...and still do in most Lesbian circles. I am wild and on the lunatic fringe because i am girly. Somehow showing up in a sundress and high heel sandals is more shocking than full latex and a gas mask. It is insane. And God forbit I wear pink to the Dyke bar...

lot's of non Lesbians here

Seriously, I think its just a different more stylized font. I know the artist and no way does she think Butch should be capitalized and Femme not.

ps...is that your sig line?

I need to be more serious.

Heart,

Bear with me while I try and ferret something out in my head here.

From what I am understanding, you are saying the exclusion of what was perceived as extremes in the lesbian/feminist movement (i.e. conflating masculinity with male and pushing out women who were too masculine, and alienating women who were too feminine, seeing them as tools of the patriarchy rather than empowered queers) was a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement.

Is it possible, that the leadership back in the 70's knew in order to successfully rebel against the patriarchy and to establish women and lesbian on women and lesbian terms, they had to remove elements that represented and reinforced the very thing they were fighting against?

Is it possible, that the leadership saw or intuited something they didnt have words for i.e. the gender/identity issues we struggle with now?

Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Is it possible, that they knew a strong matriarchial foundation was needed to withstand future attempts to infiltrate/dismantle/alter it by an insidious, pervasive, and dominant patriarchial, heteronormal ideology?

Is it possible, they knew, without a strong matriarchial foundation, the greatest threat to existence and success could and would come from within?

Given the things we now face, which have been amply described throughout this discussion, it is possible in retrospect, that what is seen as a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement was, in actuality, very prophetic and visionary?

This just keeps floating around in my head and I'm trying to get a handle on it. Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

How weird is this ,to (now) feel like a minority
in a place that has butch in the title.

I am grateful it is there for sure but the lean
or shifting to all things male is fairly significant
based upon the support (or lack of it ) in this thread.

Can we be allies without being squashed out at a later
date when we arent quite as needed?
I fucking hope so.
To me it feels competitive almost.

I wish I had a better way to explain it.

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

It should be telling to anyone that if Jack, Bully and myself felt unheard and left the steering committe that something is truly wrong with the picture. My beef had to do with including 'trans' as a target audience rather than an ally. I knew then that butch lesbian women were going to be shoved aside and that masculinity and male would be the end focus.

I can't even finish reading Joe's statements because my head will explode. They really need to change the name to 'Masculine of Center Voices' because to call it 'Butch Voices' is an outright lie.

Heart,

Thank you.

My best recollection is what occured 40 years ago in my own, isolated corner of the world. I do remember complexities with male id's and those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Must factor in your thoughts to everything else floating around my head.

Perceived being the operative word. Bias and assumptions about the "traditional roles" embodied in butch-femme negated the subversive and very queer nature of butch-femme relationships. An opportunity to unite diverse queer woman was thus lost, and, I believe may have even provoked some of the divisions we see now between transmale and queer women's communities.

This is not to throw blame upon lesbian-feminists of the 1970s alone. There's enough accountability to go around. I maintain that co-opting male privilege, (as in privileging male/trans/masculine voices over women's voices), and unexamined misogyny and sexism in transmale communities also plays a part in current divisions.

Heart

i am not butch. i do not know what has been happening in the Butch Voices organization or beyond it re their mission statement other than the few things i have seen here and on Facebook.

i am not going to comment on it.

i may be beating a dead horse here, but i am still furious with the statements about femme identity. Those should not be allowed to stand. i am not commenting on the Butch Voices issues because in many ways it's not my fight and i have confidence in the butches for whom it is.

But femme ID is mine to claim, and i damn sure want no one, surely not someone NOT femme, to tell me OVER and OVER how easy MY struggle is.

i mean WTF????!!!!!!!!!

It feels like misogyny to have that stand.

No doubt, it was said someplace....just a couple more things to splinter our community. I thought I was being overly sensitive to exactly what Martina stated. Consequently, I refrained from an explanatory treatise.

Perhaps I am too passionate to express in writing when I am irked.

Martina - several femmes, myself included did not "let it stand." we responded and refuted. I understand your fury. What do you need?

Also, I don't see such a division between butches and femmes re the BV conflicts. Because it is, in many ways, a queer women's issue, and I am a queer woman.

Heart

That line is signature-worthy.

Thanks Heart and Yellowband. i kind wish it had been removed. But i didn't even report it. i just wanted to see some of my fury reflected here too. Sigh. Man, that upset me. Wow.

Re BV, partly i just know so little about it.

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh? :D

Is this where I get to express my feelings of feeling invisable?

What do you have in mind?

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool. :rubberducky:

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me). :cheesy:

My work here is done.

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

My posts are fairly short. You can just skip them.

when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I?

Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices.

Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting.

Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing?

For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me.

I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches.

If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off.

Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense.

You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory.

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

June, here is a start to your questions.

To start, no one makes any income from BUTCH Voices. Unlike many Boards, the Trustees of BUTCH Voices is a working Board. There is no paid staff. There is a lot of work that goes into all of the events, whether they are regional or national. Outreach to many organizations, Board education, etc are all a part of the work of any typical organization. There is usually a cost to this. In addition, Board Retreats are a very standard practice in order to enhance and sustain a healthy organization. It is nearly impossible to do the core work of a Board when you are spread out geographically. BUTCH Voices Board members reside in Texas, California (Northern and Southern), and Oregon. Traditionally, Boards gather once a month in order to address various issues including but not limited to fundraising efforts, strategic planning, programs, Board structure, organization structure, financials, etc. The BUTCH Voices Board meets face to face once a year to address these issues. Also, regular teleconferences are maintained to stay in touch and keep on course for the organization. There is a cost to getting together to meet and discuss the direction of the organization. We are all volunteers and dedicate many hours per month to these efforts. We do our best to reduce costs as we move through some of the major decisions and look to new and exciting directions for the organization.

Telephone: whether it is between Board Retreats or during times of Board education, there are times we have had to use our personal phones in order to do Board work. This is a reimbursed expense.

Hotel: Board members have attended educational seminars in an effort to gain as much knowledge in appropriate and legal Board leadership skills. Board Retreat costs are kept at a minimum but needs to be reimbursed as well.

Travel: travel expenses for Board retreats are reimbursed as we travel to meet once a year face to face.

Car: In order to do much of our work on the retreats such as site visits, a vehicle was required.

Food: There is a food allowance during Board retreats. Anyone going above that allowance pays out of pocket.

External conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them: If you have specific questions about these line items please let me know what they are and I will do my best to explain them.

Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed: 2011 is the first year that grant scholarships have been requested so you will see a line item for this at year end.

It should also be noted that I am a financial planner and a big believer in liquidity. I feel strongly that maintaining a certain portion of our resources to advance the efforts of our organization is important. There are issues for butches, studs, aggressives, etc around healthcare, social justice, and advocacy that the organization has targeted as initiatives. All of these are stressed on our website... Please take a look for more information: www.butchvoices.com

It seems like there's a lot of policing of threads by members recently based on how people identify and who can post where.

As in "I only want femmes to reply to my thread" and "why is a non-lesbian starting a thread about lesbians?"

And why so many accusations of thread derailments? Some of the best discussions happen because people expand on topics.

Both things seem very divisive and silencing. Can we loosen up a little?

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

I guess you are speaking to me Dixie, since you quoted me. I was giving the cliff notes of the thread, as I read it from the beginning and that was how the story unfolded. I didn't post until a few hours ago, and my post, as I said.....went right by like a helium filled balloon......

But since I am obviously not a poster of POWER......I have seen such posters remind butches, femmes whom ever, that the thread they are in is a butch, femme whom ever thread, please respect it....

I have never voiced such an opinion.

So lynch me now, and get it over with.