Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 129379)

Yes, that is more clear. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Hudson (Post 129387)

How about you don't moderate the thread?

Originally Posted by Hudson (Post 129371)

Like when you addressed me as "little girl" on "that other site"? Luckily, my balls are bigger than even your lack of self-awareness! Sorry, but seeing you 'educate' others on this subject causes my breakfast to sneak back up on me.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 129390)

Not moderating, just voicing an opinion. I'm allowed to do that, right? Have opinions about stuff?

Just out of curiosity - are all instances where someone tries to deflect an attack on a friend "moderating"? Or is it only moderating when I do it?

Originally Posted by MsMerrick (Post 129389)

I am sorry for causing any distress, I did not in any way mean to be suggesting that those words were usually endearments. Simply that they could be...

Originally Posted by Hudson (Post 129387)

How about you don't moderate the thread?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 129388)

I am very aware that a word like "Shim" that may be hurtful to me might not be hurtful to joe schmoe.

What to do when I hit the brick wall of a person who really doesn't care that it's hurtful? I mean there is no rule that it is anyone's responsibility to give a rats ass that a word may cause pain to others.

Am I naive in my hope that others will care?

Originally Posted by TenderKnight (Post 129396)

Interesting thread..

Superfemme, thanks for starting it.. Once again, the people on this site have gotten me thinking about how I go through life and the words that I use and how I use them.

I work in Hillcrest, the *gay* area of San Diego. I work in a retail store that has adult toys and DVD's as well as clothing. Mostly clothing,
honestly.. In any case, we cater to mainly gay males.

Oh Hey. I got ran over in Hillcrest on Sixth and Robinson. Somewhere at that intersection there is an outline of my body. Totally serious.

I have used words to describe the straight college kids that look at the dildos and giggle, or the guys that come in on thier cells saying, "Yeah, dude, i just walked into the gay shop". I refer to some of them as breeders to my other co-workers.. Is this right? No.. I never even thought it was hurtful. Reading this thread has changed my views on the term and I won't be using it, or will at least correct myself when I do use it.

I love your honesty. I am also fascinated that you use this term on males. It is super cool that you are going to change your thinking, that makes this thread worth it time 100.

We also refer to some of the more.. Flamboyant.. gay men as Queens. Keep in mind, over half the staff are gay men or at least bi.. But we use it in a derogatory way, usually for the guys that come in, ask for all the size 14 heels we have, try them on, act like.. well, Queens.. and then don't buy anything.

I'll be honest, we tend to call people a lot of things.. lmao.

Now I have to sit back and ask.. why?

My thought is that for *me*, it is out of anger and frustration. I have to get at them some way and I can't be rude to thier faces, so it gets the frustration out..

Unprofessional? Hell yes.. Very human? Also, yes.

Maybe this is the way you take your power back? Having to serve people that are rude to you all day while being forced to smile has to suck.

Someone mentioned the fact that human nature is human nature, and sadly, part of that nature is making one feel better about ones' self by putting another person or a group of people down. I feel angry and belittled with straight boy comes in and finds it funny to see the gay store, like we're a friggin' zoo.. I feel frustrated and belittled when a customer takes 30 to 40 minutes of my time, me climbing ladders and getting shoes and they can't even make eye contact with me and treat me like a servant? Fuck yeah that pisses me off and I may refer to them as a fucking queen.

Words do have power. They can be weapons, or they can be tools for healing.. It's all about how we use them.

Just my .2 on the "shim" "he/she" thing.. *sighs* I am not a fan. I will admit when i was growing up and in the closet, i threw that word around with my then friends and buddies. I was trying to be a part of the straight guy world, and amazingly, there was a lot of name calling involved.. lol Now? I still hear the term, mostly from older lesbians, to be truthful.. *shrugs* I try to explain about transgender and all the personal story stuff, and sometimes it takes, sometimes it doesn't.. But i chalk that one up to ignorance or just plain ass hat behavior (ass hat, now that's a word I'm going to start throwing around more..).

That is how I've used words to hurt others.. In truth, it only hurts and belittles me to use them and to have that negitive energy so near to my heart.. Something that I'm working on, daily.

Thanks again for the thread and to everyone that posted.

-Tony

Originally Posted by MsMerrick (Post 129401)

I hope you aren't, I know I hope the same thing..!
I do limit my attempts to educate, to those that use words with.. carelessness, not .. with clear nasty intent.
I agree, its very painful, that so many don't care... I wish I had a penny, even in this economy, for every time someone has told me I am too "PC", because I try and explain that how we use..words has power..and that I am offended by someones use of a word..

Originally Posted by JakeTulane (Post 129408)

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 129411)

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 129411)

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 129411)

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

Originally Posted by waxnrope (Post 129414)

Thinking, Jake, and as I recollect, I have never heard the word faggot used as an endearment ... fag, sometimes, yes.

I refer to myself (as do some of my friends) as a "faggy" butch ... it is meant as an acknowledgment that I share some stereotypical behaviors and ways of being as my gay brothers. These are good things, by the way. So, I don't mind that, nor do my gay male friends, as they, too, call me this at times. But, faggot, no. Never in my recollection have heard it in anyway except derogatorily.

Originally Posted by JakeTulane (Post 129421)

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 129423)

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

Originally Posted by blush (Post 129020)

Fair enough. I hear you. I didn't intend it as a red herring to diminish the horror of what happens to women(girls). Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, whether it happens to boy or girl infants.

Sincerely, I do hope you'll contribute to the thread Nat started.

Originally Posted by Toughy (Post 129439)

I read this post several times and thought about it and thought about it...........

It is NOT mutilation to cut off the foreskin of a penis. It IS mutilation to cut off the clitoris and the labia. There is a HUGE difference between these 2 acts.

Originally Posted by Dylan (Post 129423)

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 129451)

technicality. you are both right.

genital mutilation


–noun any type of cutting or removal of all or some of the genital organs, esp. excision of the clitoris.

Originally Posted by JustJo (Post 129455)

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me. :rrose:

Originally Posted by gayla (Post 129467)

Thinking about this from the standpoint of reclaiming language and using various words in context.

For me, there are words that I use in reference to myself that I know other people find offensive. As someone else mentioned, the girls I work with used to get upset when I called myself a duke or queer because they've always seen those as bad words. I use them because they are the most relevant to me and most of them now use them when talking about me, "My dyke friend at work says it's ok for me to go to the parade as long as I don't cringe at the queer boys in leather."

I know a number of people who don't like most of the words I use. I've lost count of the number of people who think "butch" is an insult. As a matter of respect, I don't use those words when talking about them but I'm not going to use different words to describe me just because I'm around them. My friend J is a lesbian. Not a duke and not butch and really not queer. So I would never refer to her as any of those things bit it doesn't mean that I have to stop calling myself a dyke when I'm around her.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 129360)

i don't think language is *just* language.

i admit to being a certified dweeb geek child who was teased every day of my childhood. i was told to just ignore it. sticks and stones and all...

words are powerful. words can hurt and words can make you ten feet tall. the tongue IS mightier than the sword.

of course it's not always about me. it's about dylan. :candle:

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon (Post 129535)

Well I didn't read past this post yet...

But, I wanted to say that I don't believe that either....However,

If words are used to intentionally hurt someone they FEEL more awful than they are.

We're all subjective. It's all our point of view, how we recieve EVERYTHING. They really are "words" we've chosen to describe something negative that can have positive meaning too. That's kinda what I meant.

I had a therapist once..(don't be mean... LOL) that said ....about me and my brother, living in the same house and how different we seemed to be...she said we each receive the same sintuation differently.

Words CAN ...seem to make you taller or smaller...but....that's your inner self telling you that. It's your experiences that fall in to play. (all this is how *I* believe by the way)...and I believe how we receive things colors everything. We just take it in.

I try hard not to make it about me when things like "words" are said.

I live in a world where Butch is a bad word.

maybe I'm thicker skinned but........... I can't change them. I can help educate them. But educate the world...naw....I'm tired on that. LOL I call it when I see it...that's all I can do.

ooh Rattling again!!

:)
-Mr. Moon

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 128689)

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

Originally Posted by betenoire (Post 129274)

If an individual doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does - really their only "responsibility" it to not use it. If someone doesn't like Queer, nobody is forcing them to say it. You're welcome to articulate why you don't like the word - but don't expect everybody to apologise and never use it again. DO expect everybody to make a mental note of that and not refer to YOU as Queer, however.

And then there's Fat.

I love the word Fat. I think Fat is just about the greatest fucking word in my vocabulary. I'm all about overusing it and desensitizing people to it to the point where when I say it it's clear to the listener that I'm using the same matter-of-fact voice that I would use if I were to mention my freckles.

I think there's a lot of power in taking back Fat.

But, you know, not everybody is on board. And they really don't have to be. I don't get to decide what words make other people uncomfortable.

Sometimes if I reference my Fat it squicks people out. From the co-worker who (so well intentioned) say "Brandy...you are not fat, honey." to lovers who say "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful." (like I fucking can't be both? wtf! I wanna be both!) When that happens the onus is on me to (briefly) explain that I don't think Fat is a bad word, and why, and then move on with my life.

Originally Posted by JustJo (Post 129455)

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me. :rrose:

Originally Posted by Waldo (Post 129668)

Interesting. Who gets to decide who is fat and when it's ok to use "fat"?

What size does a person have to be in order to use it? Size 8? 12? 16?

If someone had been a size 4 for years and suddenly finds themselves a size 10 are they to censor themselves when around people of considerably larger size?

Originally Posted by Waldo (Post 129668)

In looking at the term in the context of the queer rights movement I understood it to stem from a desire to label heteros who "had it easy". Who were physically capable of "breeding" of their own accord. Who had reproductive rights and opportunities that same sex couples did not.

Perhaps I have more progressive (or perhaps less progressive?) hetero friends than most people, but I have at least two couples in my world who refer to themselves as breeders.

Originally Posted by JustJo (Post 129683)

Hi Waldo :rrose:

For me, "fat" is self-identified, just like any other term or description. Some people would feel or be "fat" by their own definition in a size 4, others in a 22 or a 5x or whatever.

I'm not saying anyone needs to censor themselves...I'm saying how I perceive things. If you read my whole post you would see the last line...where I said that these things feel different to me.

There's a huge difference to me between that woman who was always a size 4and is now in a 10 saying "I'm struggling with this; I feel fat and undesirable" and the woman in a size 0 making fat comments to her friends behind my back...generally just loud enough for me to hear. To me, a size 10 is slim, but perhaps not to her. For others, a size 22 feels fabulous. That's their perception, and has nothing to do with me.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by Nat (Post 129684)

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice a breeder of revolutions.
5. A breeder reactor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It might also be worth checking out the variety of definitions at urbandictionary.com

eg: Breeder is a slang term (either joking or derogatory) used to describe heterosexuals, primarily by homosexuals. It is drawn from the fact that while homosexual sex does not lead to reproduction, heterosexual sex can, with implicit mocking by connotation of animal husbandry.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 129686)

to breed and breeder are not the same. to me.

mirriam webster on breeder:

Main Entry: breed·er
Pronunciation: \ˈbrē-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1531
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or planthttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism c : a nuclear reactor designed to produce more fissionable material than it uses as fuel —called also breeder reactor

Thank you for understanding that it is hurtful. In turn, duly noted that your progressive friends do not find it hurtful.

Perhaps if I divulged more personal information on how I became pregnant it would help garner more understanding on why being compared to an animal makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

Unfortunately, I'm not ready to do that here.

Originally Posted by JustJo (Post 128258)

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.



I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic. :rrose:

Originally Posted by Nat (Post 129700)

Hi Waldo :)

In an attempt to other heteros, there is also a line being drawn about who qualifies as lesbian/gay and who does not. Within our community, for the term "breeder" to be used to refer to straight people in an ugly way, it is not only ugly to straight people, but it is rejecting and erasing of the people within our community who have had kids.

If you have hetero friends who refer to themselves as breeders, they are doing so from a place of hetero privilege. Also, self-referencing using an offensive term is not the same as othering somebody by calling them an ugly term, no?