[QUOTE=Melissa;287920]I also think that privilege is highly dependent on context and in relation to things like age, race, size, education, and looks. A white male has more privilege than a black male in certain contexts......

The U.S.A. has a black male as president - there are always the exceptions.....


A short, overweight, unattractive and uneducated white male will have less access to certain privileges than a young, tall, attractive highly educated white woman. In this case privilege is not based on sex but on education and looks. And we do privilege certain types of people based on how they look.

......well i think you just described Elton John, short, overweight, unattractive and white and hes very privileged indeed - lol!

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

*grabbing a chair*

popcorn anyone?

just adding my thoughts, im male id butch.. my bigest fear is being discovered in public i have a responsiablity to my self and to the public not to let that happen. i do not feel its a privlage to use the mens room.. it is usually filthy an stinky its chancy to be discovered there,alot of times the only alternative is the parking lot. if i am discovered in public to be female born it causes a ruckus (if not a fist fight) to the point i would have to excuse myself from a date/dinner/dance/conversation or in any situation i may be in just being myself. i think any privlage has been worked hard for and would never intentionaly be abused. t/g male id butchs usually walk softly as not to disturbe the general public.. at least for me its like that. i do not feel in any way that any privlage is larger then what it takes to live as i feel i was born to live ftm/tg/male id
just my own feeling.:vigil:

Ok, well I wasn't going to respond because I have this feeling of going in circles, and figured we might as well stop before one of us drops down dizzy. But hey, who doesn't like a good headrush?

I highlighted in my last post why I was taking issue with yours and other posts and the way you were using male privilege in conjunction with transmen or non-biological (though I'm finding myself even taking issue with this term of description) male identities. But upon further consideration what truly does not sit well with me is both the absolutism of your words (and as far as I'm concerned, no situation can be absolute, and it takes more effort to keep that absolutist view in place than realise that most colours are the result of the mixtures of mixtures, if that makes sense), in addition to your statement that the presence of privilege in your hypothetical setting (interesting that you should call my examples of why many transmen may not have what is popularly called male privilege generalised when your hypothetical transman in his hypothetical office/classroom with his hypothetical responsibility talking to a hypothetical woman is...well...the definition of generalised) is not affected at all by the circumstances of a transman's life.

In fact, I'm not sure that you can entirely or absolutely divorce the experiences of a transman as a transman from a hypothetical situation such as you have described. First of all, let's think a little bit about the freedoms and therefore privileges that "passing" may or may not provide. What is "passing?" I mean that question to involve both its definition and its implications on the life of the one doing the "passing." Unfortunately, the Oxford dictionary does not reflect on the term passing as it is applied race or sex, but settles for a brief mention of passing as "of a resemblence or similarity." So when we're talking about "passing" are we as "female to male" identities agreeing with popular belief that we are actually imperfect copies of men that require hiding those imperfections in order to maintain our well-being? That we are not "real men" but merely trying to trick others into seeing us as men?

And if this is, truly what we are doing then why do we do it? To be seen as male by mainstream society. What does being seen as male mean? For many it means that society does not identify us as female, but as our mind's sex. That, then, means that society believes that men born with XX chromosomes and an anatomy defined as "female" are not male, cannot be seriously considered male, and so we tell ourselves and keep the misconceptions alive. Hence why I would argue that passing can be (note, I do not state "always is") an oppressive tool, and just because a transman passes does not mean that he cannot be disempowered by another man, woman or any other identity; does not mean he cannot be silenced, and the secret disempowerment during a seemingly innocent hypothetical conversation can be very harmful, and can, in fact, create a problem out of throwing "male privilege" at him. Again, my argument is not that it exists, but that this so-called responsibility (which nothing can truly be if one simply places that on another person without their consent) cannot exist on its own and only on the side of the transman (and certainly not without taking into consideration his experiences as a transman).

If we are going to bring the issue of transmen, passing and what male privilege exists for transmen, then we cannot allow that discussion to be a one-sided flogging block. The hypothetical woman, in this hypothetical discussion with this hypothetical transman also has a responsibility to be aware of her cisgender privilege; the privilege she possesses as a non-transgender person, or, if she is a hypothetical heterosexual "biological" women, of her privilege beyond the queer spectrum. She should not be excused of her unawareness because of the fact that she does not know she is interacting with a transman. If the world is to drop its rigid gender laws, then it must remain constantly aware of what one says, because even the most "innocent" comments can be a privilege if you've never been at the pointy end[s] of the stick.

Again, just because someone passes, just because the other party doesn't know a transman was born female, does not mean that other party is powerless to hurt that transman. It just means that a transman may very well remain silent in order to avoid making his humiliation or offense public for fear that society will view him as a lesser man, or not a man at all; or perhaps it isn't not being seen as a man that frightens him most, but the consequences of that visibility. I'm thinking also of those of part African, part European heritage who have also used passing for survival or the attempt to gain and maintain some dignity in society. If an African American man who can pass as a white man is in the presence of a white woman who does not recognise his African American heritage, who does not remain aware of her own privilege, does that mean that that man is not humiliated, silenced or disempowered by a comment she makes thinking she is in the presence of a white man? How does his white male privilege compare to a white man who is not "passing?"

Like trans people, I feel that he, too, is wedged somewhere between oppression and privilege (both hanging a mighty big axe over his head). Again, the dynamic is not so black and white when you are dealing with a "passing" individual.

And this is a main part of my point. While the transman may arguably possess male privilege in this hypothetically hypothetical situation (yes, I think I may just have crossed the border to ridiculousland), the woman in the situation also possesses a privilege whether she is ignorant of it or aware of it.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up. Especially when it comes to accusatory statements about a person supposedly denying their privilege without necessarily knowing the circumstances of their life or their struggles. And that is something I do not like to see or hear.

The source of both privileges is the rigidly heterosexual, gendered, classed etc. society we live in, and attacking one person over another screams ridding one's self of one's own responsibility and dumping it onto somebody else. This is not what I want, and feel we should be dealing with the source, not the symptoms. I don't mind talking about male privilege and how it relates to transmen, but if we're going to do that then we should also recognise how that privilege differs for transmen and the perhaps brutal and unpleasant reality of passing in so far as how it affects that privilege. We should also be discussing the very basic privileges someone who is not trans possesses over someone who is trans, in conjunction with the above discussion, because that privilege is something most people (I dare say both in and out of the LGBT community) are dreadfully unaware of.

I am enlightened by this discourse ... thank you Ender ...

There is nothing ridiculous about my hypothetical. How hypothetical is a man talking to a woman. I am sure I can walk out my door right now and see an instance of it.

What is ridiculous is the degree to which trans politics seems to want to go to deny that many trans people have male privilege.

i do not doubt that a cis-gender woman talking to a transman has cis-privilege or that she might hurt him accidentally. So you are saying because they both have privilege, that cancels something out and we shouldn't talk about it. Or that we shouldn't talk about it because transmen might feel shamed and they have enough on their plate? How will there be change then?

i am sure that a transman experienes his privilege differenty than a cis-gender man, but I won't experience his sexism differently if he enacts it. It will be the same. Nothing about his background or his struggles will make ME or other women immune from the effects of his behavior if he handles the privilege given to him without care. Even if he just accepts it as his right, he is doing harm.

i have no interest in surrendering my expectation that all men be aware of their privilege in a world as crushingly sexist is ours. i won't modify that expectation for any man. i don't think any of us should. It's not about the man or his background or his personal experiences. It's about the social world we live in.

i will never stop looking at male privilege just because there are other kinds of privilege out there. Is that what you are suggesting women do? That's how women find a way to live in the world, by seeing privilege for what it is and finding ways to navigate through it. That's how men learn to facilitate change and help empower women, through identifying privilege, by SEEING it first, and then finding ways to negate its effects.

Martina, I would like to ask what it is that you would like to see said that is NOT being said.

And I swear to you I'm not being confrontational or "nasty" in my tone...not at all.

I haven't seen anyone here say that transmen do not experience male privilege (I admit to not reading every single post).

I have seen people admit to that AND ALSO say that there are many ways that transmen are at a disadvantage and sometimes in danger....that it is not as simple as saying, "Hey, I've transitioned......I'm a man......now my path will only ever be a smooth one."

It just seems to me that you don't want to hear the rest of that......that maybe you think that will water down the seriousness of the privilege bestowed upon transmen.

So I am asking.......seriously and respectfully........what is not being said that you think should be said?

Or is it that you think there are things being said that are wrong?

Because, again, I haven't seen anyone say a transman does not also receive male privilege when he walks through this world seen, perceived, and received as that man, that one over there, this one, etc...

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

Funny how some threads start off with one topic and then spin out of control...most often, Trans threads.

Isn't that the truth, I thought the topic was someone asking the difference between male ID'd butch and a transman, funny how it wound up about taking a dump on the transmen.

Same ole response everytime male privilege is mentioned too. i had sworn offa these threads. i recall why.

I don't know if it's spinning out of control as much as going on tangents as part of people's thoughts when they read something posted and it a triggers a random thought.

If we kept threads in the very narrow definition of the topic, I think that we wouldn't see too much growth or discussion in relation to the topic or side-topics. I think when we dismiss these discussions we dismiss our own opportunity to learn and grow. To be honest, I get Martina's point. To be honest that whole thread feels like a lot people are saying stuff and everyone is going "Lalalalalalala" when replying.

Privilege is something that some transmen claim they never have and that is just as wrong as saying that we get the exact same privilege as biomen. I think, however, it's important that transmen recognize that privilege. And then figure out how they are going to address it in their day-to-day lives. Because unless they go out and tell every person that they meet that they are trans, they will be inferred that privilege (and moreso if they are white, tall, handsome, etc.). Unlike transwomen, we blend far too well.

And I think that's what Martina's trying to point out (Martina, if I'm wrong please let me know).

That said, I will say that I believe that the privilege in question is transitory (although that may depend on circumstance or cultural area). For example, my recent activities with my chiropractor where I had to out myself for health reasons and ensure he had no issue with me (I also had to ask about the possible health impact of wearing a medium-compression binder). No Bioman has to worry about that. He just goes in, gets treated and leaves.

Now, if we are to get back to the original topic of the thread (what is the difference between a male-ID'd butch and an FTM), I think that it comes down to whether there is a sense of gender dysphoria or if there is a sense of belonging to one's body regardless of gender labels. But that's my view of it.

Let me be clear here. I (Me all by myself) do not feel dumped on. However, it does sometimes feel that whenever transmen are the topic or even part of the topic as in this case, the thread gets changed into one of privilege and how much of it we transguys do or do not get.

If nothing else it is just plain rude to the OP. For me as a transman it is just tiresome.

I agree Linus, and there are always going to be some that believe they do not have privilege, just as there are always going to be some whites who think they do not have privilege because they are white.

I also think it is important to not forget that many of us have been verbally bashed for transitioning and accused of doing it just to get this privilege. I am one of these people, so yes, it can be a trigger if one has not done some work around it and realized what privilege we do get and without our choosing it specifically.

I've never denied the automatic "privilege" that a man receives once he goes out into the world, and I'm not going to do that now.

And I'm also not going to turn a deaf ear to those (trans)men who, as a result of transitioning, have lost their jobs, health benefits, families, loved ones, and/or homes. Those guys don't feel like they got much in the privilege department as a result of transitioning, and I can get where they're coming from.

That doesn't mean they get to act like asses and work to keep women down or any such nonsense, and I feel quite certain we are ALL on the same page there. But I do think we should ALL hear that those things are as much a reality and a result of the transition as the privilege is.

There are folks right here in this community who will say, "Tough shit. You wanted to transition; take the bad with the good." And you all know good and well that is a fact. Some people in b/f land have all but SAID those EXACT same words.

My gawd... Not one person here has said, "Transmen do NOT receive male privilege." People are trying to say it isn't necessarily automatic and isn't always easy and doesn't always feel like it............and that it is more complex than that!! Why can't it be grey? Why does it have to be so fucking black or white?

It doesn't feel good to have your struggle reduced to something that takes three seconds to say. If someone here goes through this world as a man and never encounters anyone who knows of his trans history and you hear him say he does not receive male privilege, I would really love to be a part of that conversation. Seriously. Because, yeah, there's something amiss there.

But until then, I think we should ALL honor each individual's struggle and hear them and question with compassion and respect. And I feel that way about everyone.....regardless of their identity, socio-economic status, race, position, etc... A little kindness goes a long way.

I wanted to acknowledge this since it seems it was in response to a question I asked you; I appreciate the reply.

Personally, I don't see how you got "there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen" from what he wrote. I admit to not always getting things the first time around, but I just think there is so much more to what he said.

Respectfully,
Thinker

Martina, this is not what I was saying.

In fact, I think I even highlighted in my responses to you a couple of times that I was not denying the fact that that privilege existed, but that it was far more complex when it came to transmen. We spoke a bit about transmen who pass and so on, but the problem is is it's hard to talk about a generic or stereotypical transman.

I think it is significant that a disproportionate amount of trans people are discriminated against in housing and employment situations in comparison to the general population (in Canada, probably one of the only other groups that deals with this problem to a similar degree (by this I mean statistically, I'm not denying others don't feel this, too) are Aboriginal Canadians, though they are protected by law...unfortunately many don't care), that more transfolks are the victims of violent assault than the general population, that so many still get swallowed up by drugs and prostitution (sometimes I feel like that aspect is unspoken when it comes to transguys) because of these challenges made harder by the fact that they have only artificial legal protection. I think that is important when we discuss male privilege within the trans community.

The other thing is, a lot of transguys on the internet are perhaps no longer in these situations, are not yet in these situations, with some who will never be in these situations, though I'm sure there still are quite a few who are. They at least have the current luxury of computer and internet access, which likely means they are not living below the povert line. There are a lot of transguys out there who do and so they have no voice in these kinds of conversations, may not even have a voice in the real world depending on their situation. They should be taken into consideration. They are significant, and their male privilege is complicated.

Why is it so insignificant to you? Why is it so offensive for me to say that coming up with a hypothetical trans person in an office job is problematic when talking about transguys' male privilege as a generalisation? Denying the circumstances of the trans population just seems really dismissive to me.

I agree that we should be listening to what anyone has to say about male privilege and how it is harmful to women. But it often feels that people rarely stop to actively listen to transmen or male ids without wagging their finger and saying "well, you have male privilege!" or some comment about their transition, who they are, how they should act, how they have this responsibility or that one, where they should exist, where they shouldn't. It pretty much shuts down anything a transguy has to say that doesn't agree with one aspect or another, and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

Also, why is it problematic when I suggest that speaking about privilege should be a two-way conversation that weighs both sides and not only male privilege transmen carry to varying degrees (in some ways I do agree with what Joe said about it being superficial), but also the privilege that stands against them?

The reason why I suggest this is because in many threads that are either about transguys/male ids or simply in which they participate (like Domn and Jesse were saying), people use male privilege as a way of silencing transmen or talking down to them. Yet in many situations the privilege is a two-way street, because the same people who frequently bring up male privilege in trans threads also have their own privilege and it seems like they don't think that's as important...why is it so absurd and offensive that we focus on ridding ourselves of both? Both are harmful. Both are silencing. Why can't we talk about both?

Btw, everything I've said here about transguys (and all transfolks) and the challenges they face is also applicable to other identities, other minority groups, definitely applicable to many women that is for sure. In many respects we share these problems, which is, again, why I think we should explore the greater issue that causes both privileges and disadvantages on all sides. That, to me, seems more productive than shouting down a given transguy who walks into a trans/male id thread talking about his experience.

*That* is what I've been trying to put my finger on! Something in this has felt very "catch-22"-ish to me, and I couldn't get down to it.

Well said, Ender.

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

:) I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. Does this have to do with my decision not to engage Jacques or respond to his comment?

If so (and I realize that may not be what your point was) then all I have to say to that is this... Sometimes people post things here for NO OTHER REASON than to spark a fire or poke at someone/something. For me, personally, I felt that was what was happening, and I opted not to go down a road that I (again, just me) felt would be fruitless and would take the light off what I felt was a more important discussion.

Again, that's just me and why I did what I did and said what I said.

I know from experience (as I'm sure most of us do) that you can't educate everyone and you can't get them to see another perspective. I also know that in discussion forums, in particular, there are people who *intentionally* drop little stink bombs just to get the discussion to go elsewhere. I just wasn't willing to do that, and I still don't think it would have been wise or beneficial to engage Jacques in that instance.

And again, to Jacques... I really mean no disrespect to you on a personal level. I just have a strong gut feeling that you weren't really trying to participate in a positive way. The fact that you only made one comment and then repeated it tells me I just might be right.

And if I'm wrong...well....it won't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

Martina, if I was way off here, my apologies to you. Like I said, I couldn't grasp a clear point with what you wrote. I'm sure that's on me. If I was off, then maybe you wouldn't mind a little elaboration???

Respectfully,
Thinker

Exactly. The bolded statement especially.

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

All gender privilege is unearned. It doesn't matter how one comes by it (i.e.. attractiveness, "passing privilege", transitioning, etc.). It's all unearned because it's a byproduct of patriarchy.

These issues can be argued to the point of inanity, but they count for nothing if we do not excavate the inherent sexism entrenched in the false duality of gender roles.

The capacity to do that may be a lost art.

Your posts have been perfectly clear. I agree with you. There is no justification for anyone exerting any kind of gender privilege over anyone, ever. How they arrive at that privilege is incidental.

I agree with you on both counts. And given the situation, the manner in which he posted, and a little history of similar posts, I opted out of engaging.

I do the very best I can in navigating this new "me" and my new life. I have addressed unbelievably ignorant and cruel statements and felt my heart beating in my throat when doing so. I have also ignored some ignorant sh*t.

I don't think for one second I have made the correct decision each time. As a matter of fact, I think I screw up quite a bit. But I can say with 100% certainty that I do more good than harm, and I treat ALL people with the same courtesy and respect with which I would like to be treated.

It would be nice if you and everyone I come across approved of every choice I made/make, but that's just not gonna happen. In this particular situation, you have reasons for believing something should have been said; and I have reasons for believing that addressing it would have been a bad move. I don't think either of us is wrong or intended harm; we just see it differently.

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower. :seeingstars:

excuse me could you please clarify yourself a little better because your post seems a little angry...and the hioghlighted part could you expound because it feels really gross what you are stating here...thank you