Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.

I wouldn't put the change in my pocket on Tucker calling for his death. Hell, I'm willing to bet that someone on FOX will excuse the man!

Cheers
Aj

[QUOTE=BullDog;256233]Why don't people their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.[/QUOTE]


That's exactly what I have been saying BullDog. The root of the problem is the othering which allows us to view animals and other human beings as less than and therefore not worthy of decent treatment. I think others have been saying this too. So that is where my passion and energy is going.

Fighting for the rights of animals is not overlooking or not fighting for the rights of women and children. And the reverse is true as well. Anytime someone fights for the rights of queers, POC, women, animals, children and so on they are helping to fight for all of us. At least that is how I see it.

When people get all upset over Michael Vick and have multiple threads about it, but there is no discussion of women being abused by multiple football players over and over and over, I think women are being ignored. It's been all over the news. Some of the biggest football stars have done it.

[quote=julieisafemme;256238]Each issue is a piece of the puzzle. If you leave out any one, the picture will be incomplete. None of us can take care of ALL of the issues, but if we focus on the ones that speak the loudest to us and respect the efforts of others who speak on the other issues, we might actually get somewhere as a society.

I am here to tell you I am NOT ignoring the abuse of women. Not now. Not ever. As a survivor of abuse it filters into and affects EVERYTHING I touch in this world. Ignoring the abuse of women is ignoring me and I do not do that anymore.

This thread is about animal abuse and what Obama said to a football coach. I am thinking about that and trying to link it to the bigger picture as I see it. That includes the abuse of human beings as I have mentioned in all of my posts.

I am tired of being lumped into some group who does not care about, advocate for or passionately fight the abuse of women.

I have no idea why you think I am lumping you in with anything.

Then who are you talking to? You do not quote posts of specific people. You paint these broad brush strokes and we are supposed to figure out if we fit or not??? I will NOT sit by and let any woman be abused. I will NOT sit by and let another woman or girl go through what I went through and still do this day! Now I am riled up and so I will take a break from this thread. I do appreciate your voice in defense of women. I wish you would use it to support us here instead of what feels like to me tearing us down.

So we're not supposed to bring up things like racism and sexism? This thread was placed in the politics section and the OP said they weren't going to vote for Obama because of his remarks. Some of us are looking at this from a much broader picture than others.

You make a good point. Because people were talking about taking justice into their own hands or expressing fantasies about what that would be like, I thought it might be useful to post some links about what happened the LAST time that was allowed in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynchin..._United_States

http://withoutsanctuary.org/ (this is a slideshow of lynching images, they are VERY disturbing)

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...chingyear.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...nchcauses.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...ingsstate.html

http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet...t/USLynch.html

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum...9.02.04.x.html

Now, I want to say this. I get it about revenge and vengeance fantasies. I understand why people have them. But when you *indulge* in them and give voice to them, I think one should be fully and completely cognizant of what one is talking about. When one is fantasizing about the cathartic glories of vigilante justice, one should know that the reality of vigilante justice is not what you see in an old movie with Chuck Norris or Charles Bronson. Vigilante justice is brutal, it is violent and while it might seem that someone like Michael Vick would only be 'getting what he did to those dogs back' keep in mind that this is the SAME mentality that inspired the Billy Holiday song 'Strange Fruit'. To the minds of the mob, those that were hung from trees were just getting what they deserved.

Reading this thread I had a most ironic moment. Perhaps the most ironic I've had on this site so far. A justice system that I do not trust and which I KNOW is stacked against me, is also the only real protection I have against the sentiments expressed here. My only hope, irony of ironies, is that if *I* were accused of a crime the courts would get to me first and then I could get a lawyer and hopefully something resembling a fair trial (class would be my ace in the hole here).

As I said at the head of this post, I get the fantasies of righteous vengeance visited upon the deserving. But I also get it that I cannot--and most certainly should not--indulge in such fantasies. In 1998, a man named James Byrd was murdered by three white men in Texas. Not just murdered. They slit his throat, beat him with a bat, and then tied him to a truck and dragged him just to be certain. When I first heard about that, or about Matthew Sheppard or Brandon Teena, I certainly had feelings that were of vengeance visited upon those criminals. But then I thought "if I indulge this, if I let myself think that I am righteous for this stance, what POSSIBLE moral distinction can I draw between myself and the people of a small Alabama town who lynched one of my uncles in the late 20s?" I realized that there was none. I would be no better than them--lacking in a mob, I would not have the means to carry out my vengeance--but as Organicbutch's tagline says "thoughts become things, choose the good ones". I am the niece of a man who was lynched 40 years before I ever drew my first breath of air and yet his death stabs through the heart of my family to this day and it has been the best part of a century.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind or make anyone feel anything differently about this issue. Indulge your vengeance fantasies in expression here. Sleep well at night knowing that you are on the side of righteousness. But know what it is you are fantasizing about. Know what side you have chosen.

Cheers
Aj

Toughy posted a link, did you go and read that page? So you're talking about YOUR personal feelings about Michael Vick, okay. I’m not sure I have anything to say about your personal feelings about anything--in fact, I can't imagine why I should say anything about your personal feelings so I won't.

Cheers
Aj

I might have sadistic fantasies about torturing him and taking the law into my own hands but I would not. thats the big difference. Instead of stalking him, sending hate letters and contemplating ways to make his life miserable I'll use my time constructively helping animals.

For the people who haven't heard the song that Aj mentioned:

I think for myself it might sometimes be easier to talk about, dissect and express outrage about mistreatment of animals than to touch on the mistreatment of women and my own abuse. I don't know if this is true for others. That does not though mean that I am ignoring the discussion.

Happy New Year to you all and thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I'll be thinking about in the days to come.

I've been chomping at the bit trying to get online to post.
Sometimes a big pause to really think about it all backwards and forwards is
the only damn way I can really see shit for what it is.

I am disgusted to say neither my sisters or father could serve impartially on a trial of a POC person for any crime. I have worked internally very hard on many levels for a hell of a lot of years to not be anything like them. I think we as white people gotta pull out the mirror look in it and most importantly feel where POC people are coming from.
Our brains absorb all types of bull shit. At some point though there must come a time when people make a choice to be fuckin rigid in their thinking because that's easier than examining under that ugly layer.

I wonder what a good lawyer's eliminating juror questions must be when defending
a POC in this world?
In all honesty would I be eliminated?
Have I deprogrammed enough ugly yet?

In addition -

http://www.theamericanmuseum.org/february.10.fifth.html


Strange Fruit

First Published In
The New York Teacher
1936

Abel Meeropol, under the pseudonym Lewis Allan
(1903 – 1986)

Southern trees bear strange fruit:
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze;
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south:
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop.
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

"On August 7, 1930, in Marion, Indiana, Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, black men arrested the previous day on robbery, rape, and murder charges, were forcibly taken from their jail cells by a white mob, beaten savagely [possibly to death], then hanged [or hung] from a tree. Marion police officers took part in the kidnapping and murders. The photograph was taken by Lawrence Beitler. Beitler worked almost around the clock for ten straight days, printing thousands of copies of the picture, which he sold for fifty cents each. Abel Meeropol was moved to write Strange Fruit when he saw a copy of the photograph. The poem was set to music, and became the piece Billie Holiday sang to close her performances. Samuel Grafton said of the song, in 1939, "If the anger of the exploited ever mounts high enough in the South, it now has its Marseillaise." In 1999, Time Magazine named Strange Fruit the song of the century.
...
[Editor's note: Marion was not in the South. Indiana was not a Confederate state, nor did it even share a border with any of the states that seceded or remained neutral 70 years before the lynchings. Although it is comforting to believe that the demon of savagery borne of hatred lies only in the Southern character, in fact, Marion, Indiana, lies farther north than New York City.]"

NPR recently took a retrospective look at these events - worth listening to.

Strange Fruit: Anniversary Of A Lynching

One lawyer will want the ugly because it will help the case. The other won't be able to eliminate the ugly because it's so pervasive. To be picked for a jury, I think you have to seem generic, bland, open but trusting of the justice system and at least a little reluctant to be there. Jury selection isn't a question of worthiness, sadly.

Ps. I would love to see more public debate about what a jury of one's peers actually should be.

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

Yasher Koach or continuing strength to you! Thank you for sharing this. What I find resonates the most with me is that you have found a way to forgive yourself. I have found this very difficult to do and it is the key to being able to forgive others or if not in the position to forgive, to at least believe in the potential for redemption.

Saw this at HuffPo and thought it makes a very, very good point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-z..._b_802821.html

Pundits, man your stations. It seems that the Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson yipped that Eagles quarterback Michael Vick should have been executed three years ago when convicted on dog-fighting charges.

Many are now getting hot and bothered expressing shock that Carlson would actually call for Vick's execution -- a tad extreme even for Fox.

Frankly I was shocked that Carlson, humiliated so thoroughly by Jon Stewart many years ago, still is on the air. The guy has been on more canceled programs than Jennifer Love Hewitt.

In full, the paunchy, lipless, chinless, porcelain man-boy with the ubiquitous bow-tie said, "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that."

I know it's hardly news for a Murdoch-owned, right-wing shock jock to say something shocking. It's like receiving word of a celebrity sex tape. The thrill is gone. I am also well aware that in the current media set up, it's Carlson's job to say something utterly outrageous and the job of people like myself to respond. We make statements about Carlson's peculiar brand of bloodthirsty Christianity. Maybe we point out how easy it is for Carlson to call for the death of an African-American athlete, always the low-hanging fruit for his race-baiting ilk.

We bat this particular ball back and forth like -- as one writer once said to me -- "two hookers working opposite sides of the street." The ensuing hothouse debate becomes an entertainment option for people soured on American Idol.

But there is actually a serious problem with this kind of 24-hour cable performance art when the subject is Michael Vick. It's that pesky entity pecking at the window of reality television known as "reality."

Dostoevsky said famously,"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." By that standard, the United States exists in a barbaric state. Enter a prison -- something I sincerely doubt Carlson has ever done -- and you see the daily, dreary reality for the 2.3 million people who live behind bars. In what's become the largest prison system on earth -- take that China! -- you see the herded poor stacked on top of one another. You see a world disproportionately black and brown with African-American men six times as likely to go to prison as whites, with one in nine black men between 20-34 living in a state of incarceration.

It's a country that through its addiction to privatized prisons and "tough on crime" legislation, has created what writer Michelle Alexander's calls "The New Jim Crow." In Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness she details the way the prison system robs its present and past and even future inhabitants of voting rights, citizenship, and any semblance of political power. She points that the United States now imprisons a higher percentage of black men than South Africa at the height of apartheid. As she writes:

Jarvious Cotton's great-great-grandfather could not vote as a slave. His great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Klu Klux Klan for attempting to vote. His grandfather was prevented from voting by Klan intimidation; his father was barred by poll taxes and literacy tests. Today, Cotton cannot vote because he, like many black men in the United States, has been labeled a felon and is currently on parole.

Michael Vick, whether he likes it or not, is humanizing the struggle to find redemption after serving time in a maximum security prison. After all, if a star quarterback doing hours of community surface can't regain a foothold in society, who could? Tucker Carlson's efforts to dehumanize Vick and paint him as a disposable, killable individual cuts in a way that transcends the idiocy of Murdoch's 50-state southern strategy of dimples and dog whistles. I'd love for Carlson to spend even a week in Leavenworth and then make an effort to rebuild his nerfy little life. Then we'd see how a man without callouses could be so callous. This is why Michael Vick's story matters, and really another example -- as if more were needed -- of how Fox News has become a cancerous boil on the political soul of this country.

Yes, this exactly. I believe in redemption and second chances. I have screwed up more than I care to share...and my own life would look very different if there were no opportunities to redeem myself, to learn, to grow and to do better the next time around.

I found it interesting that Vick is working with the Humane Society to change the thinking about dog fighting...not with animal advocates, but with those that are participating or at risk of it. He's doing it voluntarily...not because he was ordered to. He's not being paid...in fact he's paying his own expenses as he does this.

Could he be doing this for PR? Sure. Could he have an ulterior motive? Sure.

But could he also be doing this because somewhere in the middle of that prison sentence he had an epiphany, or grew, and realized that he wanted to make up for what he'd done and keep others from going down the same path? Sure.

I don't know which it is. I can't know. But I have to give him the opportunity to redeem himself without judgment.

I just want to say that this could just as easily be an artifact of editing rather than an artifact of either sentiment or writing. I'm not saying that is the case, simply saying that the parts of the interview that might be most germane here are not necessarily the parts that the editor thought would be most germane for the audience of the web site.

Cheers
Aj

You all have touched on the same point re the Ohio case. This is a quote from the article from The Nation that someone linked to.

I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.

Hey Waldo....

um.....no I don't find it uncomfortable.....I do have a sense of humor and I believe I inserted "laughin" in that thought to indicate the tone of the comment.

----------------
suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............

happy new year.......

(besides I need go and call my UConn friends and rub it in that Stanford destroyed the winning streak and spanked them the whole game......GO STANFORD!!!!)

I'm very well aware that people can care about the abuse of animals and the abuse of women. I am one of them. Like I have already said people have brought up Vick time and time again- here and in the media. When do they ever talk about the systemic violence against women perpetuated by football players?

The Ben Roethlisberger incident just happened this year, yet most don't even seem to be familiar with it. He's one of the most famous figures in all of sports. He's also a white quarterback. Michael Vick is a black quarterback. They both play for sports teams in the State of Pennsylvania. Why is one getting so much air time and the other one doesn't? Because of Obama's phone call? Really I don't think so.

I don't know why I am supposed to take this to another thread. The over obsession of Vick has lots of racist tones to it which are being discussed here- quite appropriately. There's other big aspects to this story as well. Why are people so obsessed with one player who has been convicted and served his time?

Ben's case has been widely reported (although from a biased standpoint) in the locality where his first alleged offense occurred. It is NOT a closed case.


7/21/2009 A woman waits a year to accuse him of rape *a year after the fact* and files a lawsuit against him: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907219995

7/22/2009 The Douglas county sheriff counters saying they cannot investigate a lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907229996

7/23/2009 Big Ben says he did not commit rape (but, he also does not state that the encounter never occurred): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907239998

8/1/2009 Ben turns the tables and accuses the supposed victim of wrongdoing: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907319993

8/15/2009 Ben's attorneys want a change of venue to a more favorable county: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908149980

8/18/2009 motion to dismiss a suit (doesn't state WHAT suit and there's no statement by the victim in the article, but her "best friend" and co-worker states it's baseless): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908189997

8/20/2009 Ben's lawyers say they have proof the accuser is lying: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908199996 - comment calls her "McNutty"

8/21/2009 Both sides claim extortion: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908219977

9/8/2009 Accuser's attorney says they'll drop it if he admits to rape: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909089985

9/9/2009 Ben's lawyer refuses that offer: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909099995

9/10/2009 Victim's lawyer wants list of everyone Ben has bedded, and Ben's attorney calls his accuser "mentally unstable": http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909109995

9/14/2009 Ben's lawyer moves to have victim's statement struck: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909149992

9/16/2009 (third judge since the lawsuit began) Refuses favorable change of venue for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909169988

9/18/2009 Now Ben's lawyers say victim filed suit because she was trying not to get laid off: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909189998

9/30/2009 Judge denies motion to dismiss: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909309995

10/4/2009 more mud slinging, and a new lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/910059996

11/8/2009 Ben's first accuser quits her job: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/911089994

3/5/2010 FRESH ASSAULT ACCUSATIONS against Ben, new locale:http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309877

3/8/2010 Ben's lawyers say it never happened (again): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309833

3/9/2010 Second accuser's attorney asks for privacy: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309787

3/10/2010 Off-duty officers say second alleged assault never happened: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100319993

3/23/2010 DNA request withdrawn in Georgia case: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100329939

4/9/2010 DA to decide whether or not to charge Ben in Georgia: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409760

4/9/2010 NBC hasn't said if he's invited back to the ACC golf tournament next summer (golf tournament/scene of the crime): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409763

4/12/2010 No charges against Ben in Georgia (one can only guess as to how that was decided): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419962

4/15/2010 Goodell: Decision on Roethlisberger in near future (in NFL): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419908

4/16/2010 Police ties to Ben (in Georgia) still questioned: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419813

4/19/2010 Goodell: Roethlisberger violated NFL policy (with bad judgments): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419753

4/21/2010 Trooper can't keep working for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...EWS/100429951\

4/21/2010 Ben suspended for six games for bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429953

4/23/2010 Goodell can INCREASE suspension if more bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429885

4/26/2010 Ben will not appeal suspension: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429795

4/29/2010 Ben's police buddies under more scrutiny: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429649

6/3/2010 Ben makes the best of his second chance (and makes no apologies): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100609880

9/3/2010 Ben's suspension REDUCED to four games (did not commit any alleged rapes for 4 months): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100909922

12/27/2010 More mud on the first accuser's face, from Caesar's: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/101229819

It is still an ongoing situation. The first suit has not been settled in any way. Ben's reduction of his suspension for "good behavior" (not being alleged of any rapes for four months) seems preposterous. His remorseless comments on the 3rd of June just six months ago speak for themselves. He's claimed that he's reformed and convinced the NFL commissioner, even if his legal case is not resolved, and even if he did not get a call from Obama welcoming him back to the NFL.

Apologies if any omissions or incomplete links, ain't the best cut 'n paster on earth.

Stanford, Schmanford. Bears STILL eat Cardinals! :) Go Bears!

Sorry, Toughy, family tradition couldn't be helped. (My sister went to Stanford, I went to Cal)

Cheers
Aj

[QUOTE=Toughy;256627]suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............
QUOTE]SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

You can get whatever idea you want Toughy. I'm sure there is a big list of what other people would never consider forgivable. Your idea isn't based on my words - if you read my words, that is. Everything you've said here is presumptuous, at best. Do you have anything to say about Vick, or just the other members who are posting?

Well, my lack of knowledge about both Ben and Michael Vick has more to do with my dislike of football than anything else.

laughing..............actually I'm a Baylor fan for the next couple of years............gotta love Griner.........so I agree.........laughin..........Go Bears!!

laughin............why the snark????? Obviously I read what you (and others) wrote and formed my opinion based on that. I also believe I did state my opinion about Vick. I also asked some questions for clarification and you didn't answer them...........soooooooooooooo.............I'm just saying without that clarification I am left with my stated opinion that you and some others don't see redemption for Vick under any circumstances.

-----------------------------------------------
(the above line means I am making a general comment here and not directing the comment to any specific person)

I also think unexamined racism is at play with Vick. There is no redemption for this black man, however several white men can get away with anything.

My point wasn't about taking anyone to task for not knowing. The Vick case has been much more widely publicized outside of sports circles.

I've explained my position in great detail, and the only thing you have to say is that you get the "impression that.....". If you'd like to engage in a conversation with me I'd be glad to clarify. The only place where I've found any mention of Vick having any remorse about causing these animals pain and suffering was on the link that Aj sent me - and I addressed that. Do you have anything else to add?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.