I met theis cute red head one night I bought her two drinks an danced with her once,we had a bare conversation while I was waiting on someone.Two day's later she showed up at my door school books and baggage to walk right in,I told her to get back in her car and go home I already had a roomie,then shut the door.Some people are just to dersprate.

>Well of course, we're all unique beings (obviously), so everything is ultimately subjective according to one's individual perspective, as well as their own personal life experiences.

I was asked my opinion, therefore I gave it.

Yeah, I actually *do* know what flirting is.

And sure, sometimes it is indeed harmless...but not always...and I think that most people can understand the difference between the two.

I also was not aware that "others" thought harmless flirting was a "CARDINAL SIN".

Talon, your post sounds as if it's coming from a defensive place. My post was a compliment to your statement, which I felt was positively significant, and important enough to expand upon. The rest of what I said in my post was not directed at you, or about you. I'm sorry you took it that way and felt the need to respond as such.

I didn't think that it was directed towards me personally, and I'm sorry that you felt that I was acting defensive towards you. But, I don't understand how you would even know how I was taking something. After all, this is an on-line forum, and you and I don't even know each other.
So please don't be sorry, because I didn't take your post as..anything like you seem to think I did.
If my east coast bluntness came across a little too harsh in my last post..it was not intended.



:olive:

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been involved in online forums with hundreds of people I don't know. I don't need to *know* someone to interpret what their words mean *to me*. I was very careful in writing that it *sounded* as if your post was coming from a defensive place. Obviously, I was wrong. But at no time did I imply to *know* how you were taking something, nor did I state or feel that you were acting defensive toward me. Normally I wouldn't bother to make these small points but I don't like being misunderstood any more than anyone else does.

I have been reading the last few pages wow how one topic can pose so many different questions....So I have one of my own now this is theoretical and or hypothetical so keep that in mind and I will use letters to represent person's...

Persons A & B are in a relationship that lasts less than 1 year and they break up.

Person A begins dating several people up to an including sex etc.

Person B is seen at a party flirting with Person C who does not know person A at all

so here is my question

Does person C owe "femme" code to person A because they happen to be at the same party? if so why?

Does person A at any time owe anything to person B?

Considering Person A is dating/flirting/ having sexual relations with another and or many others.

Who owes what to whom in this scenario and why?

i don't think anyone owes anyone anything automatically. that's why i like to talk shit to death. because to me it's a million times easier than assuming that everyone has the same expectations in a given situation (or assuming you have the same definition of "like" and ending up engaged...i LOLed!). and it holds true for almost every situation. it might mean that i'm really annoying, but it works.

For me, there's no hard and fast rule about any of it because the core issue isn't how long a relationship lasted, how many people an ex is dating, etc. For me, the core issue is simply this...if I have been in a relationship with someone and professed to care about them and their well-being, and we have broken up and they are in pain or struggling with it, then I'm not gonna jam my new love up in their face.

For me, it's about respecting the people that you once professed to love.

I don't think new partners "owe" anything...because the responsibility for the ended relationship isn't (presumably) on them unless they were an instigator in the breakup.

Again, just for me, it's about tact and respect and compassion.

Time itself isn't the issue. If my best friend breaks up with her partner, then that partner is not a prospective date or partner for me for life....just because it would feel too strange to me, even if my best friend claimed to be okay with it.

Having said that, I have exes that I would happily send off with a letter of recommendation and a batch of cookies to the next person that could presumably make them happier than I did...and just smile if I saw them smooching it up on the dance floor.

I think we're all intelligent enough to know when our ex is still hurting or struggling. As a friend of mine says "it's not rocket surgery." Breakups leave us all (I assume) raw and hurting.

Now.....if significant time goes by and the ex is freaking out if we are simply respectfully moving on.....then they need to get into some counseling, talk to their friends, or do whatever else they need to do to deal with their own feelings.

thinking out loud
 

I don't think people are expecting something or that anyone is feeling like they need to owe anyone anything.


In Anya's scenario, her friend was hurt, I am unsure why other that perhaps her mourning period (some people need time after a break up) wasn't over, or perhaps she has unresolved feelings and needs to work them out. Anya's friends ex showed up at social function, Anya's friend has a momentary loss of her emotions and feels crushed because of many factors that we aren't privy to.

It's not that hard to get why and how the conversation evolved to where it's at right now, we start to talk things out and think them throughly and think of all scenenarios possible.


I don't owe any form of loyalty to anyone, but when I am in a relationship with my close friends or chosen family members I do have the expectation that they be honest and considerate like I am with them I have this expectation because that is how I am in my friendships I give back what I receive.

------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure we've all had this happen one time or another.

It could be from your not so close friend hooks up with a person you fucked 6 months ago, your not so close friend decided to share intimate details of her life with said person she is seeing,

You can either tell person you are not so close that you fucked said person she is seeing, or not.


It all depends on the individual I suppose, people have pasts, it's when things get shady or you enter relationships with only peeks at the truth and such that things get sketchy for folks.

I am unsure if anyone is going to have the correct answer gaea, everyone of us has a different set of ethics, values, system, code, ideals, etc etc so the answers are going to be radically different.

Just for the sake of confusion, I'll be person A for my response.

Person C owes me nothing, not even respect as another human being. We don't know each other. Just because we both may happen to identify near or on the same point on the gender spectrum means absolutely zero to me. It doesn't mean anything more or less. I have friends of all genders and gender ID's.

Person B - my supposed ex - also owes me nothing. Nobody is responsible for me, except me. Now, having been through a few breakups in my life, I can say I've *expected* certain things from people I've been involved with, but I don't feel anything is "owed" to me. As someone else mentioned in another post, one of my exes and I agreed to avoid certain hangouts on certain nights. We were young and it was a bitter break up, so it was best for us not to run into each other. Other exes I had no problem seeing them and even hanging out with them and their new partner; others I could literally care less. So, a lot depends on a lot of different factors.

What do I owe my ex? For me it depends on how they treated me and our relationship. Maybe all I owe them is civility, maybe I owe them my undying love and respect - again, it depends on a lot of factors.

snipped for my purposes...
 

I am just wondering what it means to "flaunt our relationship" around exes...

I ask because currently Stoney is good friends with hys ex. And when we are all together I am friendly. It isn't awkward or anything. But I don't stop from being my mushy hand holding, sitting close, pecking self when we socializing. Should I? It has been a few years. I honestly wonder if there is some social boundary I should respect.

I dunno I think it depends.

I know that the first time I met the new gf of whatever ex... they usually refrain from hand holding and smootching in front of me for the first time. Hand holding maybe the second or third and then after that pecks on the cheek.

but that said, I'm in oxfordshire. Not really PDA central.

I didn't hold hands or smootch with my new date in front of my ex... like... ever. In the few months we were seeing each other and all hanging around.

it was a bit wierd that they knew each other... my detached wife and X. When I went out on the first dinner with X she said "I have something to tell you... ah... I know your wife..."

you WHAT?

A Dutch, a Canuck, an Irish and an Australian... welcome to london lezzo life, really...

how???

she was good friends with my wife's ex before me and big huge lezzo convoluted BLAH

So, moral is, even in an international megacity, with people from four countries not from the country they are in? The scene is still tiny.

Even when I met one partner (the one who actually introduced me to my future wife, though I had no idea I would marry the girl two years later), I found out that the partner she was with of 7 years had run off with someone I had dated in the states when they went there to visit. FUNKY SHIT. That was super entertaining, that dynamic...

7 dykes on the whole globe, rest done with mirrors. Seriously, best be ok with people dating your ex cause if 5000 miles and three different continents I'm still bumping into people who know my exes? seriously... suck.it.up.

with respect, of course. But seriously, the inter-lezzo-ex-dating is really honestly going to happen globally... y'all.

Well color me socially blundered. I guess I am just not classy.... Ugh. I didn't stick my tongue down hys throat or hump hys leg... still I did enjoy that we were new in our relationship, hanging out socially and together. I guess it wasn't that bad of a social blunder. We all still get along.

I don't think holding hands or sitting close is flaunting...at least not by my standards.

Clearly if you're all getting along, neither you or your partner is doing anything that's pushing hys ex's buttons too badly. :)

I think it just depends on how long the break has been and the type of relationship.

my detached wife was with the woman she ran off with and trying to regain my friendship. I think they'd be a little more conservative with their affection around me for a bit. They do it now.

when I didn't show any PDA in front of my detached wife with the new date... it was because of their... awkward previous knowing each other, my detached wife having massive difficulty I'd be screwing someone in the house later that night, and we'd all be meeting in passing, *at* the house as well as X was not into PDA at all. unless she'd had a couple of beer. Then it would just be an arm around my waist.

heh. or a shag in the loo, but that's not PDA exactly is it...

You are not socially blundered at all.

Everyone has their own way in how they handle situations. Your relationship with your sweetheart is between you and him not between you him the ex and who ever else wants to put their nose in your business.

Here is a thought If Spritzer gives consideration to the ex in such a case where as she withholds hand holding kissing etc does this not put Stoney in a weird awkward kinda position? Would this not be for Spritzer and Stoney to then determine how they will be as a couple in social settings?? Personally I believe it is.

Also in the above does Spritzer not deserve consideration as Stoney's partner? I think she does....

respect in my opinion you give and receive...

I love love love excellent dialogue...

Hugs to you Spritz and when do you want my address lol Id love some jam :)

No way, I don't believe in these hard and fast rules. As was said, it's best to use your intuition and common sense. You might ask her sometime if you're friends with her too...but really, if you sense that she's fine with it then you're not doing anything wrong. It would be perfectly clear if I was uncomfortable with the display of affection.... and I would be, but not everyone is like me. If she's keeping it to herself then she's the one to blame. You're not a mind reader.

Hmm.

We all get to decide what feels comfortable to us in friendships. I don't feel the need to judge how other people do friendships except when their friendship is with me. In that case, I get to have boundaries around what I accept in my orbit just as the other person does.

I cut a Femme out of my life for repeatedly choosing dick over being honest and authentic with me and some of her other Femme sisters.
I don't think fucking, fucking lots of people, or even fucking in ways that make other people uncomfortable makes anyone a bad person. I think we all get to do sexually what makes us feel awesome.

What I don't accept in my friendship orbit (and I'm talking about that one where the women around me have specific intimate access to me in ways that casual folks do not) is behavior that is inauthentic or dishonest. (that goes for any gender as well)

IF this manifests itself with a Femme sister doing really shitty stuff like violating other people's relationship boundaries, saying and doing highly inappropriate things around other people's partners, seeking attention from persons who are partnered monogamously in gross ways, and stepping on the back of other friends to get some sexytime, I am almost always going to cut them loose. This will, of course, come after me having a direct conversation with them (probably many) about their behavior and after the point where I feel like they aren't interested in making changes or being more aware.

I'm speaking about Femme sisters here since this is the vein that we have been discussing but this goes for anyone of any gender behaving this way.

That's not necessarily a "code" to me but I will point back to several conversations about a "Femme's Femme" and a "Butch's Femme".

I feel like there are several levels of conversation going on here and I feel like some of us have very different ideas about what kind of behavior we want from our friends or the behavior that we think is ok. And all of that is absolutely ok. It's what makes us a diverse and unique community of people.

From my me place, my girls are all the type of women that I would trust to sleep naked in bed next to my Butch and I would never blink an eye. Not trying to reduce this to sex, because it's not about sex for me. It's about a deep and abiding level of trust and respect and it is knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that the women in my life whom I call "Sister" are women worthy of that level of high trust.

I too am really appreciating the depth and breadth of the dialogue here.

Thank you for helping me sort through the stuff of hanging around exes. It is new for me. I want to be respectful and know that when Stoney and I do go out (in a safe place) we can be ourselves to an appropriate degree. I don't get out much so I do like to have to fun. Getting out as a couple when we can be ourselves is precious time for me.

And I think shagging in the loo is private, in a way and not flaunting. Unless it is noisy and then it isn't really private either and may be flaunting. Then again it could be totally socially appropriate. :sunglass:

I have to admit the concept of "femme's femme" and "butch's femme" is a bit mind boggling to me. I can't actually wrap my head around either of those concepts.

I know dykes that will shag anything that moves regardless of who's in the way of it. I kind of stick everyone, regardless of sex/gender/sexuality in that same box. I guess because I don't hang out with butch-femme community much, but a very mixed one, I put all horndogs in one box.

People I trust to sleep next to my partner naked? well I think I'd trust my partner? I have to admit I'm really failing to grasp that concept either. I think concepts are just not translating for me. I've become borg!

sorry. the terms are really swishing over my head. And I don't think explaining them are really going to make me understand. I think it comes from context of community. That's ok. I'll just nod. Or quietly sip something and play with some spilled salt on the table. I think I used to understand. somewhere, off in the past fog of my head before the Limeys got me thinkin like them...

First: I totally snorted out loud at "horndog"! I freakin' LOVE that!

Thing about trust is that I do trust my partner implicitly. I'd like to have a similar level of trust for my girlfriends. That's all :)

shagging in the loo . . . always socially appropriate

i'm with honeybarbara - the first thought i had when thinking about people i'd trust to sleep next to my partner naked was...well, i trust my partner.

i absolutely get the part about honesty and authenticity and that's something i demand of people i have close friendships with as well. it just feels like there are other assumptions happening in this thread that i don't personally understand.

I'm sounding in on this late, but I will say that I am another who goes against the grain.

You can't help who you fall in love with... Things happen.

Now, granted, I am not saying I want my ex to start dating my best friend the day after we split... However, I will say more power to you if it's something true and not a rebound (or finding out that you've already been secretly seeing that person while we were still together).

Okay, I am not a Femme but I do have an opinion on this sort of thing. One of the first things I learned as a Baby Butch in my late teens and early 20's is that your buddies current and/or ex was off limits. Out of respect for your friend and even for her/his ex, it was better to just leave it alone. Maybe in time if you still felt a desire to date her/his ex, you would go to your friend and tell them your intention. It was not asking for permission. It was to be honest with your friend and get an idea as to how far along they were in their healing process or just simply letting go of the ex. If it is clear your friend is still grieving and healing, then it was up to me to make my decision.

Maybe this Old School Butch Code was not in all circles but I know it was part of my group. Did all live by this, no. However, it was clear there could be consequences. The consequences were you hurt someone you care about and/or you might even face some sort of physical fight, smack down.

As for "harmless flirting," sometimes it is harmless and sometimes it is not. I have experienced someone "harmlessly flirting" with my girlfriend in the threads and the next thing I know somehow this harmless flirter is their next butch. (No, not and this site or with regulars that frequent BFP.)

Obviously there was something not working in our relationship. There had to be or else the harmless flirter could not have wormed there way in. My point, flirting can be so much more then harmless.

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

this is like a loaded question ....

If someone wants to date one of my exes, you have my blessing.

I couldn't be happy with them, but who am I to deny their (or your, or any of my femme friends') pursuit of happiness with them.

If I were still in love with any of them, I guess I would feel differently, but I can't know for sure.

One of them, I knew I was over her when I heard she was dating someone and my gut response was a panicked urge to warn and protect the femme from going through what I did.

But that's the only strong reaction I've had, about any of my exes being with someone else.

For the most part, my exes are decent people, just not a good match with me. And there are so few choices out there, IMO, of people who are right for us. I don't want to make the field any more narrow for someone else.

When it comes to making what some would view as inappropriate choices of a lover, I also look with hope at the example of my sister, who fell in love with her neighbor.

She was married and had a toddler and a small child at the time. Couldn't possibly have been messier—not to mention, they had to alert their chief officers in the governments of two countries, because the men worked together in a sort of tricky configuration.

"Bless her heart," said my best gay male friend in his Texan twang. "An international incident."

I agree. I say bless her heart, which she followed.

Because now, 20 years later, instead of having endured with the wrong man, (who I love like a brother, but I understand why she didn't want to remain married to him), she is living with her best friend and lover, and they have the happiest, healthiest relationship I've ever seen, with lots of common interests, flirting, laughing, trust and a strong emotional bond.

If one of my exes if your truly right person, your once-in-a-lifetime chance at happiness, or even if you just want to have some fun with her, I say, Go for it, and again, you have my blessing.