BUMP!
 

I have had unfortunate situations in which a butch/trans friendships have been very stressed (and even lost) due to a butch/trans friend seeing a femme that doesn't care for me (I know, weird, huh- it happens).

On one hand, I get it in terms of the nature of relationships and what battles we all choose to fight or not with partners. On the other side, when I have been in this situation with a partner/someone I am dating, I am clear that my friends are my friends and I will be loyal to them. Of course, whenever we enter a relationship, there are shifts in time availability, etc. so usually there is a change in the time I spend with the friends I relate to outside of the relationship, but I don't cut them off.

I don't know if this is true for many butches/transmen, but I find it hard to make good friendships with other butches/transmen, often. So, when I do, it matters a lot to me.

There are issues I have run into with femme friends too when they start to see someone, but I think there are different variables at work there- and it isn't the topic of the thread.

To be honest, since I have joined the B-F dynamic fully (wasn’t so for many years), I have found thought that there is quite a bit of interference with friendships all the way around within the dynamic. It has not felt the same as it was in my more lesbian-only days or as a heterosexual in a couple or dating. Have no idea why this is so- and I in now ay know am generalizing about this- just speaking from my own experience. Jealousy has seemed to be much more prominent to me. None of this has felt good at all and I keep trying to figure it out. I am a boundary motivated person, always have been. I don’t cross them, especially romantically. Why? I have seen the adage “if she cheats with you, she will cheat on you” happen around me far too many times! No drama. please! Obviously, I am from the monogamous variety, not everyone is, so this could play out quite differently for other people.

I have never experienced a femme speaking for me as some posters have talked about. not even in the very long-term relationships I have been in. But, both of these women were fairly reserved, so that might have something to do with it. Although, both were good conversationalists and had huge knowledge bases to draw conversation from. Then there is just the usual kinds of things around how we all may feel more or less comfortable at certain gatherings, etc. and who we are around that influences how much we engage.

maybe I am not seeing things clearly, dunno.

I have been in a few situations where a person close to me did everything they could to isolate me from my friends and family. This was achieved in a variety of ways by a few different people and it was effective. One person actually lied about the behavior of those I was close to - and was a convincing liar! I only figured out how convincing that person was, when that person began lying about me to other people (also convincingly!) - which further isolated me (and freaked me out). Other more normal methods of isolating a partner just involve criticizing whomever that partner has as a friend or family member. If the person you're with keeps stating that whatever person is not a real friend or doesn't really care about you or *fill in the blank* and they seem like reasonable people, it can get to you after a while.

I guess I'm saying all this because my first impulse was to say that your butch and trans friends are responsible for their own behavior. But then I began thinking back on the times when I was in situations where I dropped friendships due to the influence of another person, and although it was ultimately my responsibility to stand up to the onslought and maintain my friendships better, there was a fair amount of emotional abuse I was dealing with as well which made me unfit for friendship and unable to discern what was actually true due to the gaslighting.

So I guess I think butches, femmes and transmen should all make it a point not to discourage a partner's friendships whether or not they themselves jibe with a particular friend. I think there's a difference when a person has a problem with only one of the person's friends or of that person is actively isolating that person from others - which is an abuse pattern.

I also saw my best friend's straight cisgender boyfriend completely drop his long-term friendship with another man because that guy was really rude to my friend.

Since you mentioned boundaries -

I stopped hanging out with a (straightish) friend since I've been in my current relationship because she asked me to kiss her and when I told her no, I'm in a monogamous relationship, she started crying and asked why we had never been in a relationship. She was drinking at the time, and I consider her a friend, but I also feel like I can't hang out with her anymore without violating my relationship.

When I was new to the bf dynamic, I made friends with a couple and ended up totally crushing out on one of them. I never did anything about it, never said anything to this person about it, never attempted to break them up, would in fact talk them up to each other as a rule, never made a pass, never stated my feelings until they had themselves been broken up for many months and the other party had moved on - i thought at the time that I maintained a boundary by acting as though it was only friendship that I felt - but I figured out that the amount of availability, deference, care toward that person (and the lack of those things toward that person's partner) was invasive of that relationship.

I decided after that, if I ever have feelings like that again for a friend and either of us are in a relationship, I will put distance between us until those feelings fade. When a person has feelings, it shows and it's different than being a friend even if you're doing only friend stuff with that person. I couldn't tell that at the time - I had never run into a situation like that before. In my straight friendships, there had never been a need for a boundary other than, "don't do anything physical with this person." But in the queer world, so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor. It's probably like that in the straight world too, but I just didn't have enough feelings about any of it for that to be a danger in my world back in my "straight" life.

WOW, you speak to many layers I have struggled with and was trying to discern in my post. Some points that do help in trying to wade through these dynamics. Thanks.

I agree that at times, one does have to do some distancing if there are any "other than friend" feelings.

In the lesbian relationship I was in for 21 years (and began when I was 27), what you bring up- so much emotional betrayal seems possible without physical intimacy being a factor- was something that happened between my partner and me that I never experienced in my straight relationships. It was very difficult to figure this out at the time and get her to see it. She believed that since she wasn't "doing anything" physical with another woman, that there was "no betrayal." It wasn't until we were in therapy together that she finally got this.

Yes, emotional abuse factors can be part of control issues in a relationship and isolating a partner. On the other hand, what I have felt mostly is simply what can happen when a friend couples with someone and there is just dislike between me and that person. Or, our personalities just don't jive- which happens. But, if that person engages in lying about me to others as a means to isolate me from a friend and even to destroy my reputation, that is over the top and a sign of instability and viciousness as far as I'm concerned.

Yikes... it is all quite complicated! I have learned through the years that true friends that are stable and possess an inward sense of justice and are not prone to narcissism in these matters do not listen to gossip (actually halt it) and actually end up distancing themselves from people that engage in it. And when I think about it, I don’t want friends that will gossip about people anyway!

There's this thing called codependence too. If a person doesn't have the will and the guts to maintain and continue investing in her/hyr/his/hir friendships once a relationship has come into a person's life, then the friendships will often be dropped. Some people really also tend to segregate themselves based on whether single or coupled. Or they refuse to go anywhere or do anything without their partners. This is annoying.

Ps. Do you see this behavior as something femmes do exclusively or more often than others in the community? Do you feel like this femme friend-block falls along identity lines between butches and transmen? Like - do you feel femmes have encouraged your exclusion because of how your identify/experience your gender? If so, I am wondering if this is a common experience for others as well?

Hummmm.. my personal experience within this particular community has been skewed toward femmes in some ways. But, that really could just be my experience and also based on the fact that I am kind of a hermit and not all that social. So, I feel like my personal "sample" isn't all that reflective of or can be in any way indicative of the B-F community.

There have been times when I have been socializing in real-time at specific B-F groupings that I have witnessed some of the caddy remarks I remember from days of long ago wherein women are taking shots at each other and it was femmes doing so. Stuff like making fun about weight or clothes. Hate that and it has always saddened me in terms of being a woman.

My guess is that it goes on with butches and Transmen, too. Other than a couple of butches/Transmen that I have befriended via Bashes from the old site and kept in contact with, I am not close with any here in real-time. Then again, there is that more reclusive part of me. I'm essentially a homebody and my family comes first. And there are really only two long time friends of mine that I am really close to.

Have to add that this does influence dating for me. When I find that a femme tends to make fun of other femmes or is a gossip, I don't go out with her again. The same would hold for friendships with other butches or transmen.