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tough love vs. extra leeway???
it is all relative to the situation. i read things wrong all the time. i have terrible dyslexia. honest intent. we help and treat each other accordingly. some people manipulate and take advantage of extra leeway and cry that they can't handle tough love. so what then?? let them continue to cross boundaries and placate the behavior?? i am not in support of banning people who need this community. i am however weary of people who continue to cross boundaries all over the place. whatever the reason. |
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I think some of these same people do need our community. I think we have decide what kind of website we are going to be. Are we going to make allowances for those people who ON LINE cross our boundaries? Are we going to try and learn to communicate with them, or choose to ignore them? Or do we need to just have a zero tolerance policy? To be clear, I am not speaking of anyone who poses a physical threat to anyone or their family. Actual proven physical threat, ZERO tolerance!!! |
[QUOTE=weatherboi;152759]hi everybody!!! :)
social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person?? an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD. i also feel this way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave. i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation. do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort. Grant i agree 100% ! |
I am by no means an expert. I have worked with MH, MR, and the differently abled for 15 years. Some things I have learned.
1. It doesn't matter if one has a mental health issue, tramatic brain injury, or if one is developmentally delayed. Nor does your race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-ecomonic level, or education level matter in this discussion. 2. Some people respect boundries and others do not. Some people are also, honest, caring, sharing, peaceful people and others are not. 3. One's backround may make it harder or easier for you to adjust and fit in in the world. And yes some have it much harder than others. And if we are completely honest, no matter how able or differently abled one is, how one looks and is perceived also matters, sometimes a lot. 4. I have seen able people refuse to respect boundaries and differently abled people who completely respect boundaries. And I have seen many times when able people cross differently abled people boundaries because they are being "helpful". 5. I have also seen cases where people use their disability as an excuse. And I have seen some able people come up with mind boggling excuses for their behavior. Like all people, we learn who we have to respect and who we don't have to respect. 6. It really comes down to taking situations on a case by case basis. In reality what we are really trying to address is those situations where someone does not get the hint, misses the social cues, doesn't take no for an answer, has it stuck in their head that they are right and they want what they want. Lucky for us these people are both able and differently abled. 7. So when an able person behaves badly the TOS kicks in. Easy as pie. 8. So I have to say, if you are differently abled the TOS kicks in. Maybe not so easy, maybe it sounds harsh, but I have seen to many times in real life when differently abled people respect my boundaries but not others boundaries. I set the rules with them from the first meeting. If you are able to use a computer, can post competent posts, engage different people and be liked by people, then you most certainly can understand being told no by someone. And if this has gone on long enough that admin and mods become involved, then you have probably been told no enough times. 9. There are some that have trouble with impulse control (another thing I have seen in all types of people) so they react before they think. I get this and have seen it many times in my life. But on the computer you have to type out your impulsive thoughts and hit submit reply. I have seen some really well thought out impulsive statements. Reality, the only way to learn control is to have consequences to ones actions. Ya know like in real life, when you act impulsively and bad can things happen. 10. Compassion is nice and it is doable to set boundaries politely but firmly. One doesn't have to belittle or call names. This is doable for the first few times, but honestly, I function on a 3x and you are out. Funny thing though, because I do set my boundaries so clearly and from the beginning (nor do I knowingly ever cross someone else's boundaries) with everyone (regardless of ability), I rarely have problems with anyone. It is not helping anyone when you give them a free pass, make excuses for them, say they can't help it, etc. Cause sooner or later they are gonna have to face someone who doesn't do that. |
I'm so conflicted about this that I haven't even really been able to form cohesive thoughts. There's been really good conversations here and, while I appreciate all of them, some have just left me more conflicted. :)
Just in regards to here, on the Planet, on a theoretical level, I say no passes, it's all about personal responsibility and there have to be lines and consequences for crossing those. Then when I stop and think of the reality of it all, I know that's not always reasonable. There are some people who don't understand boundaries and who truly don't possess the impulse control needed when it comes to not crossing them. Should we punish someone who truly isn't capable? Personally, when it's someone harassing a friend of mine, yes, drop the banhammer! When it's someone I know and care about, a little more leeway would be good. :) I really don't think there can be a blanket response that will work in all situations. The fact that the admins and mods have stated that these types of things are handled on a case by case basis, combined with the respect that I have for that team, leads me to believe that these situations will be handled appropriately and with respect for all involved, even if we don't see it. |
[QUOTE=violaine;152818][QUOTE=weatherboi;152759]hi everybody!!! :)
social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person?? an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD. I want to respond to this. In PA, when we are hired to work with the differently abled, we basically have no rights. We are in their work place, their homes, etc. It is presumed that those hired to work have better skills than those they work with (they don't always) Within each of our homes especially, we have the right to do as we please, so do they. We can not "TELL" them to do anything. We can ask, suggest, explain why it would be best to do something, we can not make them, shame them, embarress them, etc. This is an on line web site. This is not the same as being at home. Everyones rights are equal here. and honestly no one has the right to be here. It is a privately owned site. There is a tos. your DD lady has the right to behave as she wishes. If you tried to take her to a expensive event that cost lots of $$$, she would be asked to leave if she screamed. Her right to scream ends where everyone else who paid $$$ for an event begins. And honestly they didn't pay to listen to her. Honestly even a NT person would be asked to leave if they behaved badly. i also feel this way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave. i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation. do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort. Grant i agree 100% ! |
[QUOTE=violaine;152818]
an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD. what if her intent was to scream and upset you on purpose would you have handled it the same?? since intent seems to be an important topic in this discussion. i ahis way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave. :) so are you saying that if a person online keeps coming at me that it is up to me to leave??cause that is how i am reading it violaine. keep in mind that addictions and unsavory behaviors can be side effects of other bigger things going on in the relationship and deserve as much compassion as you seek for your situation. i am not excusing behaviors cause well i am not perfect and have committed my fair share of unsavory behaviors, like stuff that made me want to crawl under a rock instead of dealing with the consequences. in fact i am stilll held to some of those behaviors by certain people instead of getting any benefit of the doubt. *shrugs* i made my bed and accept it. i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation. well and this is what i have been advocating all along...self preservation and safety. right or wrong is relative and not useful to me. what i find useful is people being responsible for their own actions and behaviors. the ones that dont have the ability to do this, well i am not sure what to say about this kind of situation. i do know that when a member sets a clear boundary and it continues to be crossed by another member then placing said invasive member in a victim light is not the answer. i am personally disgusted by that tactic. Grant hope i dont sound too harsh...i am a direct and blunt person but i promise i am not coming from an angry place or have bad intent. :) |
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I think to some degree, on a case to case basis, for me, it seems morally important to make an extra effort to communicate with people who communicate differently than I do when we cross paths...(I am bad at it by nature, so it is a learning process). And whether or not it is wanted, important to make an extra effort to understand where anger comes from and how people relate. I think sometimes when some extra care is taken in the first place things will not escalate to the point where rules are broken or people hate each other and someone talks smack...but when that happens I am glad we have the time out thing. Sometimes people just do not have to coping skills to be on a website and some people can function with some extra help. I am very glad I am not the one to have to make the decision who is and who is not. That's really heavy. |
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thank you.
[QUOTE=weatherboi;152969]
what if her intent was to scream and upset you on purpose would you have handled it the same?? since intent seems to be an important topic in this discussion. i would not have accepted the job- [COLOR="Red"]:) so are you saying that if a person online keeps coming at me that it is up to me to leave??cause that is how i am reading it violaine. oh no! it is not my place to tell you what you 'should' do. i only can write from my experiences, and i hope that you wouldn't leave. very thorny with online situations, and i have been there myself. in fact, i've been wondering how well other aspies are able to even "communicate" really bad experiences to various online site moderators, and how they have been received by moderators. this comes to mind from something i read in the paper recently. [COLOR="Red"]well and this is what i have been advocating all along...self preservation and safety. right or wrong is relative and not useful to me. what i find useful is people being responsible for their own actions and behaviors. the ones that dont have the ability to do this, well i am not sure what to say about this kind of situation. i do know that when a member sets a clear boundary and it continues to be crossed by another member then placing said invasive member in a victim light is not the answer. i am personally disgusted by that tactic. i'm not sure either, because i've also had my boundaries crossed, it didn't stop when i asked - instead, it further escalated the person/situation. hope i dont sound too harsh...i am a direct and blunt person but i promise i am not coming from an angry place or have bad intent. :) not at all! i appreciate straightforward, and reading what you share, Grant. |
hi everybody!!!
from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense. i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present. It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this??? "I'm sorry, I'm not interested." "Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend." "Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends." "I want to be friends too." "Good, me too." This is actually how I have handled conversations. My tone and the way I chose words can change depending on who I'm talking to. I'm not a social worker or MSW - I was a history major. But I know that it worked for me. I made a friend without having to go thru major drama. Everyone choses how they communicate in this world. Some people make no apologies for it and demand that people accept them for who they are. I am not one of those people. I do try to communicate in a way that makes sense in the situation. Everything will not work for everyone all the time. yeah but the focus of the technic is creating a space for a relationship that may not be wanted and you didnt answer that aspect of it...you answered what you are comfortble with and what you expect everybody else should be comfortable with too. so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it. If you are "handling it" the first time, why then do you continue to "handle it" the same way? Wouldn't the first couple of times be an indication that it's not working? i never stated it is always handled the same. what i get is that if i gotta reiterate my boundaries to a person then clearly i am not the one with the problem. the fact that it has to be handled more than once should be noted as not ok and no means no. why does my handling of it need to be questioned if i am not the one creating the problem? mild form of victim blaming maybe?? so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole. That is the idea behind ignore. If they threaten anyone they would likely be reported. So if you are ignoring them, how does it hurt you to do that - especially someone that grates your nerves?ehind so you are saying they get a pass??? so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes?? If there was suddenly a bunch of people wanting special treatment I would worry. I have yet to see that though. What I have seen is that the people who actually need a pass have no idea they need one. i never said a bunch of people adorable...why are you changing my meanings around to suit your agenda. i am trying to have a thoughtful conversation with you. i said 2 or 3!!! and what i have seen is people who push boundaries are strategic about it and know they can manipulate people into advocating they deserve one. so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass??? If that actually happens and they physically invade your space - call 911. nice adorable...minimize my concerns to suit your agenda once again. ever heard of online stalkers?? how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length. Keeping someone at arms length is understandable. Choosing to ignore people is understandable. Not wanting to deal with particular people for any reason makes perfect sense. There is no requirement to engage with anyone. Ignore them. If your personal safety is threatened, it would make sense to report them. As for judging intent, I read people's posts and look for a pattern. If some has a pattern of any kind - like the way they post or how they talk - I can figure it out by reading their words i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was. I know people who are not DA that are violent, mean and dangerous. DA has nothing to do with or hold the patent of delusion. There are plenty of delusional people who think the world revolves around them and demand all kinds of exceptions for their behavior who are not DA. yes adorable i am well rounded thinking enough to know this but thanks :). i am not saying that all DA or people on the Spectrum are violent and delusional but good try! ;) social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person?? The question for me still comes down to capacity. I have seen DA people be dealt with lots of times in lots of different ways. I assume you have an answer to this question since the way that I have attempted to bridge communication gaps you refer to as placating. The remedy? I guess kick them out of the community and the person with the higher capacity for understanding feels better about their surroundings? The ignore button is out because - well people feel compelled to call people on what they perceive to be threats or attacks against them. So I'm not sure what solution you might be offering other then banning. If it's banning - then I guess that would solve the problem. adorable i never advocated banning anybody...i advocate holding everybody accountable equally on this website no matter what their capacity. do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort. Grant A free pass for being invasive and inappropriate can only be given by the offended party. The collective us cannot give someone a pass for someone else. I can, and do chose to give passes. Not just to people who are DA but to people whose tone, tactics and communication styles are far different then mine. To people who say "this is how I am, fuck you if you don't like it, I refuse to change." I give people passes when they are having a bad day. I give people passes when they're drunk and normally would know better. I give them to my friends AND my enemies. It's my choice. wow...even if that fuck you was a collective general fuck you?? cause i tend to not take things personally when people are speaking in the general fuck you...but that is my choice. as for drunks, advocators of the devils side and just people having a bad day well i will say i never felt like i needed to give em a pass because what they are doing is only hurting themselves and not me or any of my loved ones. another personal choice i am happy with. adorable have you ever been the victim of a violent crime?? for some of us that have our lives don't allow for passes to people who invade our space and continue to cross boundaries. it is my reality not a choice. |
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Apparently you asked questions so that you would get the answers that you wanted. Discussions are out of the question - you already know the answer. So why ask then? As for being the victim of violent crimes, yes I have. Each one perpetrated by a man. In fact, if you had read all my posts in this thread, I have said that personal safety is something that should be taken seriously and if someone really believes that their personal safety is threatened that they should report. People do hurt other people, whether intentional or not. That is life. Some people EXPECT a pass for the way they talk or conduct themselves because society says they shouldn't. I guess for some it's ok for other's it's not. Either way, as I said before it is up to the offended party to give a pass, not the collective us. Trying to communicate on behalf of someone else does make me an advocate. Having an opinion in a thread does not. I do have a right to think and not have to agree with people. Blaming the victim? I don't see where I blamed the victim here. Unless victim blaming = I disagree with you. In order to not be seen as blaming, I have to agree? |
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This statement, to me, is SO true. Just as I can't speak for another, I also can't give a pass to a DA person unless the interaction is with me. I can sit here behind the screen and think about how I would act/react in a given situation, but until I am in the midst of it, I honestly can't say how/what I would do or say. I think that as the parent of a DA person, I have a responsibility to not give him passes on things that are considered inappropriate social behaviors. Not all parents/caregivers/loved ones of DA's feel the same way as I do, nor should they. How we choose to move through this world is very subjective and I really try to speak from the lessons I have learned through my 24/7/365 experiences garnered over a 15 year time span of dealing with a DA person. This doesn't make me an authority on DA's or NaT's, but rather the resident expert of *my* DA son. I also have different opinions on personal safety issues. I realize there are online stalkers out there and have experienced it first hand. I understand being a violent crime victim, as I have been, but how I deal with the fallout of that experience is different than the examples I have seen here. For me, online is something that I have the choice to walk away from - I can either employ the "ignore" feature or I can just turn it off and walk away - or I can do both - or neither. For me, continuing to give life/energy to a situation/issue is something I can control. I have found, just like with Bratboy and the arm tapping, the more attention I give to the unwanted behavior, the more he engages. If I disengage by ignoring it, he usually gets tired and ceases. I try to apply this same logic to online folks - if I don't engage, its pretty hard to offend/be inappropriate with me. *I* don't give the same weight to online interactions as I do real-time ones. I concern myself more with keeping my eye on billybubbabob redneck who can follow us home from wally world and do me and mine physical harm. In saying that, I am NOT saying that I advocate different standards/rules/expectations of DA's in online communities. I do think that one set of rules for all should be the expectation. How we, as a community, go about ensuring the rules are applied equally is the issue and what I thought was the intent of this thread. I believe that DA's should be treated as an 'ism. I wouldn't want to be part of a place that allows DA's to be discriminated against, any more than I want to be part of a place that allowed other types of discrimination. I want to mention that I am off to TN and won't be around the thread much for the next 4 days - my absence is not that I am leaving the conversation because I think that it is important and timely. |
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I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.
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You're right. Not everyone has the capacity to be honest, or even kind, for that matter. When in the company of someone who has a very different reality than mine, I do not insist on what is right or what is wrong. In fact, I take great effort to listen to their voices, see what they see, and understand what is real for them. That's not giving a pass. That is compassion and empathy. Like water, the world seeks balance, not turmoil. Turmoil is caused when one person's/group's needs/desires are seen as more important, or more right, than all others. Why would I insist on making someone chew with their mouth shut? If I know they are unable to perform a societal norm, my insistence would only be to make myself more comfortable. That would be me creating turmoil and not balance. I choose to uphold my boundary and not face them when we eat together. (Gee, does this sound like an actual situation???) If, during a moment of clarity, should such person ask me why I move or not sit facing them, I would say "Because I don't like to watch the food mush in your mouth". My boundary remains intact and I have not made an insistence that they do something differently to make me more comfortable. Their dignity remains intact because the asked question has been answered honestly. To reply, "Oh do I?" or "No I don't" would be disrespecting the human being that they are. THAT is a pass/head-patting!!!! ... and why, oh why would I EVER act like I was okay with ANYONE who is abusive??? What am I demonstrating to our children when I do such a thing??? |
i am in incredible pain right now but feel compelled to post.
i thank everyone for participating, its an important conversation. i want to reiterate AGAIN that giving a pass is not about erasing empathy and compassion. people don't seem to be getting that message.... a "pass" is a different set of rules for DA people and a complete lack of personal responsibility. as the Disability Ambassador for the site, i can assure you that the planet goes out of it's way to take into account peoples DA's. what the planet is not going to do (i'm pretty sure) is to make DA people a special class that is not responsible for their own behaviors. i also find it SO incredibly dismissing that as a DA person asking to be treated that same as everyone else, that i am hearing over and over (by non DA'd people no less) how important it is for me to be treated differently. christie, you assumed snow was talking about a specific member and claimed you knew because of specific interactions you had witnessed. she told you it was not. i found your responses to snow incredibly dismissive. after reading this thread, i worry that a woman who has been raped, stalked, harassed, etc. will come to this thread and read that if a DA person is the perp that they are not protected. in fact it really feels like some people have twisted it into a "blame the victim" kind of thing, by shaming the offended person. saying it is up to the offended person to not be offended is beyond the pale IMO. and i'm not talking about hurt feelings or simply not getting along. i am talking about the rules that are in place here to make it safe for everyone. some of the examples given as reasons for a different set of rules are really really a far stretch. for instance the example of somebody being 25 but congnitively 13. Even 5 year olds know the difference between right and wrong. this is an adult website and when i first came to the b/f online community 9 years ago? i was about 5 or 6 on a cognitive level. i was banned about 3 times during that period. i was not able to exist in an adult environment, and when i was able to? i came back. i don't even want to get into how damaging it would be for members to go around assigning age, cognitive level, and diagnosis for our DA membership. can you imagine? i also was really upset by the poor example of a drunk driver killing somebody vs. a person having a heart attack and killing someone. seriously? drunk driving is a fucking choice that kills thousands every year. i was almost one of those. to compare it to a medical emergency and attempt to assign "intent" to it is a red herring. there is no such thing as DWCA (driving with clogged arteries) is there? there is absolute intent when a person gets behind the wheel drunk. i'm running out of steam, but i want everyone to know that the mods and admins deal with issues on a case by case basis. that has been said many many times, and it is absolutely true. so social blunder, awkwardness, cognitive issues and all other things attached to DA people is always taken into account. the owners and mods must also take every single member into account and what is safe sometimes. i AM DA'd. I want the same rules. When people who are not DA'd come along and purport to know what's best for me and then lower their expectations it sends me a message. that message is that i will never be like you. when i am sent the message that i am responsible for my actions, you can bet that i am going to rise to the level of expectation that is given to me. it's rare that i've run into a DA'd person who does not. at rehab i'd see the over protective mom, wheeling her kid around, feeding her lunch, and even attempting to sit in classes such as social skills. once the staff banned the mom from the property the child improved by leaps and bounds. why? because they rose to the level of expectations that the rehab put upon them. i am always going to treat all members as human beings. that means compassion and empathy being extended. will i make mistakes? you bet. but i am not about to diminish the other DA'd members here by expecting nothing of them. we're a great bunch, and there are a LOT of DA'd members here who won't out themselves as DA'd because they don't want to be viewed through that lens. i don't blame them. i don't know if any of this makes any sense, i shouldn't even be posting the day after surgery and my pain level is about a 13 right now. |
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