HerDaddy,

First off, my experience of/with Corkey is that he is MORE than capable of thinking for himself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with chiming in on these boards that you agree with other posters.

Secondly, neither Mr. Bent nor Corkey are "she butches"; and I find it completely rude and disrespectful that you would make such a statement. We offer a community of support here, and those types of remarks are not supportive at all.

Thinker (posting as a member, no moderator)

I'm sorry you feel that others are not allowed to have opinions.

You can have all the opinions you want. I'm sorry it's problematic to *you* that someone is going to call you out on your opinions.

And that *is* going to be what happens.

It's not okay to come into these threads and be shitty to people. When it's done, it gets called out.

Uh, say what?
 

I agree with you very much in terms of what for me is an over simplification of facts and issues concerning transmen and male privilege. It is complicated and it bothers me that generalizations are made about this whole area.

And I also need to point out that many female or male identified butches are subjected to the same kinds of threats and violence (I certainly have been beat up- and yes, raped and I continue to watch where I go). Femmes are as well. We queers in general are not exactly welcome by all.

I wish we all could look at these variables without lumping each other into boxes. My transmen friends all have varying insights into their experiences with male privilege- they are individuals with varying backgrounds. And my son (non-trans) has a whole different take on things as a feminist male in US society. Transwomen I know can also be a good resource for looking at the opposite effect of losing this privilege.

For me, it all comes down to personal consciousness-

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

ARGH! But, you caught it and thank you!

Mike I agree with this. I think it is helpful to hear the complexities of what transmen go through to understand better and to acknowledge your struggles.

However, I also haven't seen Martina or anyone else who has brought up male privilege saying transmen have the same amount of privilege as a male who isn't trans either. From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

When women experience sexism from men it feels exactly the same whether they are transmen or not- or at least it does to many. When transmen talk down at me on this forum (not all do), it feels exactly the same as if a man out on the street who isn't trans does. So we have to experience sexism and the effects of male privilege over and over- and from many womens experience it doesn't feel any different whether someone is trans or not.

Male privilege can indeed be situational and vary depending on race, class, being trans or not and other factors. I don't see where anyone has denied that.

From my perspective, many people have come here (and gone into other discussions) and attempted to engage in challenging conversations that they do not see eye-to-eye on and, quite possibly, will always disagree. Those are hard conversations with opposing viewpoints; they're not "taking people to task". Again, that's my perspective on it.

And, to me, it feels frustrating and silencing when people who do not want to be challenged say that the opposing view being presented is silencing. Personally, and it's not just in this thread, we are watering down the "silencing" thing to where we won't be able to see it or really know what it means when it really *does* happen. And, yes, I do know it happens.

Actually, I think if I come into a discussion and share *my* experience from *my* *me* space and someone comes in and tells me that my post is silencing, then I feel like *they* are trying to silence me.

So again... It's a catch 22.

Bulldog, it's sad to me but it has become very clear to me over the past few months that you and I see these things VERY differently. I don't recall that it was ever that way some years back.

But things to do change. I know that a lot about my life has changed in the past two years, and I also know that my heart, soul, and spirit have not......nor has my mind. Maybe it's the physical changes in me that you have come to object to; I don't know. But I'm still the same person, and I still stand for the same things I always have.

What I have noticed here is that when someone responds to you (or Martina or whomever) with an opposing position, you call foul. *That*, to me, is frustrating. How are we supposed to have a hard conversation about this stuff? I don't feel we can.

So if you feel those types of replies are "silencing" then you should probably report that......all of them.

Well Thinker, it has felt silencing to me. Perhaps the topic can be discussed in another thread at another time. I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

Edit: I don't like the insinuation about me objecting to your physical changes. I don't object to anyone's physical changes. That is his or her personal decision.

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

Also, gender identity politics is an offshoot of Second Wave feminism.

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

Yes, exactly Corkey. I agree.

I think it is great that you guys stepped in!

This is nice. I never really thought to put it that way. And I certainly like this particular perspective over "why would a (trans)man even come to this site". :)

Thanks.:bunchflowers:

Trying to think of a way to be able to discuss some of the similarities that are coming up for me with FTM's and male identified butches (I'm female identified). Always fascinates me when I read about things like (TD brought this up) being called sir and ma'am all in the same day, just in different stores. I also feel areas of male privilege come up.

But, I don't feel comfortable doing this here- this is in the Trans Zone and the theme of the thread is for FTMs and male identified butches- yet I sure feel crossover. Certainly this can apply with physical violence issues.

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

I agree with you on this with my whole heart.

AtLast,

Maybe you could put it in the butch zone (since you are butch), and then you would be inviting the others to join. Title the thread by what genders you want to "compare" (used loosely)...(sounds like you would like to add female butch to the comparison of male id butch and FTM). Then in the opening post, indicate who all you would like/prefer to participate (FTM, butches, femmes, all other identities)

I do think, however, that there might already be a thread somewhere "comparing" (again, wish I had a better word), the different masculine identities, so maybe you want to look first and just post on it.

Good luck if you decide to get something going!

agree
 

i have to agree with you...there is a barrier between male identified butches and FTM and there doesnt need to be.

if we seek acceptance by the world in general we have to stand asunited brothers...embrace our differences as well as similarities and stand as strong allies...we all share the same community.

agree
 

totally agreee brother...we all fall to earth with our own identities and ill defend with my life the right anyone has to be who they want to be...

dont beat yourself up for past feelings...we learn and grow from error and we move on and live not just side by side but in unity...

I think this is a good idea. I didn't feel comfortable recommending it since I do not indentify as FTM or Male Ided butch (I define as TG Butch...which to me is between male and female). Subsequently, I didn't think it to be my place, but I do think that if no one minds it would be a great idea.

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

Nor do I see SelfMadeMan as having had beliefs that are uncommon to this community. I simply see SelfMadeMan admitting to them which is, I think, good. It's a begin point.

Just because a conversation gets heated and/or messy doesn't mean it isn't necessary or productive. The fact that conversations such as this have been stifled within the LGBTQ community IS, I believe, a source of much of the divisiveness.

Coming into a discussion like this with the expectation that there can be a meeting of the minds is unrealistic. There is history and cultural (writ large) factors that must be parsed before that can happen, if at all. This too is for the good.

What would the world be like if we all of a single mind? It wouldn't be perfection, it would be us ceding our autonomy.

We are all in transition in the truest sense of the term. Identity is, after all, an ongoing evolutionary process. I am not the dyke now that I was a 20, 30, or 40. A sincere thank you to the Universe for that. :clap:

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other. In the end, a complete meeting of the minds may not be possible. Certain lived experiences under patriarchy may preclude that possibility. So be it ! What's the alternative? Catastrophizing over the lack of perfect community?

Would it really be so terrible if there really are places where we diverge in our experiences and belief systems? The fact is we do. It isn't any body's job to make another feel good with her/himself. That tenet too often gets lost in the mix.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” ~ Jalal ad-Din Rumi

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

Also, I am not sure if the statements about Brotherhood were intended for all butches and transmen or just male identified butches and transmen. If it was the latter, it makes sense. If it was the former, I don't relate. I don't really relate all that well to someone I don't know calling me Sister either, but if we are talking inclusion I don't want to always have to translate everything in my head. I never hear anyone talking about Butches and Transmen uniting together in Sisterhood.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Also, in my opinion, the root of homophobia and transphobia is sexism. It is in everyone's best interest to understand the roots and intersections. I don't believe in any shape or form that Homophobia or Transphobia can be wiped out with sexism fully in place. Transphobia is specific but it also comes from sexism. Take for example the case of Nikki Araguz for those who are familiar with her story. She is denied being taking seriously as a woman but at the very same time being treated in a very sexist manner as the "gold digging" woman. When transmen are denied their male status they are viewed as "not real men." These cases are transphobia but they are also very rooted in sexism. Right now the Republican Party in the United States is waging a war on women. This won't make it easier for queers or trans people either when trying to limit women or put them into place.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

It is a large part of what we have in common... although I don't really see it as rallying around persecution in the bonding sense, rather, rallying around a shared issue in solidarity. We can bond over lots of issues, that may or may not have anything to do with gender. You and I may share a love of some of the same movies, we may both love cooking (I do), we may both ride Harley's... even though our struggles may be more different than they are similar, we can get along.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

For me, having nowhere else that felt like it fit, I did spend over 10 years as part of the lesbian community, it's where I grew up. I feel a certain investment in the issues that affect the entire GLBT community, but especially, women. As I look back, no, I don't think I was ever a lesbian in the true sense of the word, because I always felt male. But that doesn't change the fact that I lived it to some extent and know the issues - do they all affect me now, as a man? No. But I care.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Agreed. I had/have no issues at all with being asked to be aware of male privilege. I have no problem accepting that I gained male privilege with transition. I choose to see this as a positive, because I use that privilege to try and affect the (bio)men in my life, and those I encounter on a daily basis.


So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.[/QUOTE]

Again, agreed. I think ALL members of the GLBT community should be aware of one another, and not only respect the individual experiences, but have an attitude of solidarity. What does it say to the outside world, the homophobes, if we're attacking one another? I truly feel each of us is interesting in our diversity, I look at the rainbow flag and see the different colors and think of all the unique, wonderful members of the community at large. Maybe I'm naive, but I think we CAN all learn to get along and fight ALL oppression. I would also like to add that I am a Psychology/Gender & Women's Studies major... I care deeply for what women have to say and I know I'm not alone in that. I'm not patting myself on the back, just want to point out that just because I transitioned, didn't mean I had anything against women... I just wasn't one :-)

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

kudos
 

i totally agree with you! yes we have very different issues, but also some similar...still that doesnt mater...we are all brothers of the same family and maybe im juvenile in my thinking but i believe in a unison and solidarity...

until we embrace each other, differences and similarities we will never truely gain any acceptance...we pass too much judgement in my opinion...we are all people living in the same world...im a man of peace and i judge no one, and i expect that no one will judge me based on what i have or dont have as part of my physical anatomy...

the world already judges us, why do we bicker and judge each other??? just my 2 cents...:hangloose:

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.