Perfectly said. Love it.

were still out here ......

Not dead...
 

...yet anyway :)

Alive and well !!! Best kept secret in Oklahoma !!!

Wasn't sure how to reply to this post.
Is butch a dying breed? I would think that would depend on how Butch is defined. I believe if you are you are referring to traditional rigid male role then perhaps yes as more of the community (young/new members) break away from less fluid terms. Again not saying a stone butch is wrong or right, but how the word is broadly defined.

I live in Toronto, Canada, some may believe the mecca of gayville. It is rare to see OS butches and even less butch/femme couples.

I've been told I'm butch by straight people and not butch enough by some in the LGBT. I am perceived to be butch (how they define it) by what they see. I prefer tomboy, andro (with a slightly more masculine mannerism) because the duality is closer to how I feel rather than a need to fulfil someones' predefined butch label role.

I thought there was a declining population of femmes as well as femmes interested in non-femmes at least it seems that way here. And perhaps more so for anyone 40+.

One post asked a great question about what is it about the dynamic of butch/femme that is sought after? Is it for stereotypical hetero-normative roles?
- For myself it's finding a woman where we compliment each other. Since I don't wear heels or a dress/skirts that is one opposite - maybe she might. How she thinks and feels can make us whole. A femme for me doesn't mean that she must paint her nails, wear makeup, and have some one open the door for her but one with great character.

LOL - similar issue. Either I don't see them or I'm hidden from them. Straight women - less of an issue. But maybe to just satisfy a curiosity. ;)

Paradox, I couldn't agree with you more, I am in Mississauga and struggle with finding a community that embraces the butch/femme dynamic let alone Old School in Toronto or the GTA in general. If you are interested in making a new friend I would welcome the opportunity.

As to "butch" a dying breed, I think the rigid definition perhaps is fading out, however, in this day and age there is a new label almost everyday to try and include everyone within our community. I'm not one for labels, but within the b/f community it's a necessity if only to wean out potential partners.

I've been known for years as a "soft butch", because I wasn't clad in the clothes deemed to be what "hard butch"....I prefer to be me, I don't wear heels, makeup or dresses, but on occassion wear silk shirts does that make me less butch. I don't think so, it makes me comfortable with me and who I am, and I'm pretty sure a certain someone has no question that I'm butch.

We need to stop letting people define "us", and embrace and be confident with who we think we are, whether it be soft butch, female Id'd, male id'd, cock id'd, stone, andro, Old School or whatever we choose. The point is "we" are Butch and we bring something different and definitive to the table.

Merry Xmas to All !!

Hey SaltyButch.
Your live in Sauga terrority. How did you survive the ice storm?

I will not decline an opportunity to make a new friend - :).

It is very hard to find people who are really, genuinely comfortable 'being' and the community for such a space - particularly b/f is almost none-existent.

Hi Paradox,

This made me wonder: is Toronto perhaps not the mecca of gayville, but only the mecca of a certain subgroup of gayville?

I'm familiar with the idea of Toronto as a gay mecca, although my perception was that it was more of a mecca for gay men. I'm not sure where I got that idea, and it could simply be another case of "women are often ignored in the media."

Could it be that the OS b/f mecca is located elsewhere? I think in the Atlanta/Decatur, Georgia area we still have quite a lot. There are certainly lots of queer people who identify in other ways, and maybe it's because I've lived here for 27 of my 48 years, but I see butches and femmes all the time who are people I don't know and don't recall ever having seen before. Of course, I'm the one identifying them as what I would call "butch" and "femme", and I don't ask them how they self-identify. (Do work pants and a tool belt make a butch? . . . gosh, I hope so.)

I'm not claiming the b/f capitol for our own, but I'm wondering what others think? (I'll need to start thinking of retirement communities fairly soon, and I don't think Scottsdale, Arizona would suit me.)

No but there is definitely a shortage of femmes!!!!!!

Well, we seem to be short on butches here in NYC. Perhaps we should organise an exchange program.

reply to CherylNYC
 

I like your plan. :)

Yes I would agree that the Toronto LGBT 'scene' is more applicable and tailored towards subgroup (gay men). Not a very strong representation of queer women. No surprise really.
From your reply it brings a thought.
Are we not 'seeing' the b/f because we have a preconceived visual cues of what we believe b/f is?
Maybe they are out there but the image is far more different than before. From your example; Work pants and tool belt was (may still for some) be an automatic definer for a butch. Heels, purse and make up for a femme. Like wearing a uniform you knew what team they played for and what position (in theory). Now perhaps with the uniforms removed our prejudgements are kept at bay. (This sentence can be read in such a different way - :innocent:)

Is this a good thing? In some ways definitely. It's the whole 'don't judge the book by it's cover' sort of thing.
The Flip side? It can make it harder to figure out a person.

So maybe there are more b/f and perhaps more femme that like butches/andro than I have noticed. Have to enhance my scanning skills. :glasses:

Hey Paradox,

I faired not too badly with the storm, I lost power for about 10 hours, the ice is still clinging to the tree's and alot of limbs are down and posing problems.
How did you fair?
I was recently told by a friend who has since moved to the US that there is a b/f community in Toronto which is thriving, I said really where, I'll have to check the website that she told me about.
If you want to chat a bit and perhaps meet up for coffee or such just drop me a line, I would welcome it.

Salty

No they aren't. There is plenty of them around. However, if you are preferable to a specific kind of butch and thus unable to spot any other kind, you may have that idea.
There are far far more than the kind that wear jeans and a tool belt. There are more than just OF or OS US style uniforms of it.
But that would require accepting that those who look like tomboys or "faggits" (the dapper/urban dressed) ones are butches. And no, black eyeliner doesn't make one a soft butch. It might make them goth or rock and roll or glam.


Alternatively I would also suggest there are only seven and the rest is done with mirrors.

I'm pretty sure it isn't all done with mirrors. I've been seeing different bf couples every few weeks in shops or out walking. I'm living in a small town too. They have all been young, high school to early thirties.

Of course there are more types of butches than just the work pants/tool belt type. That was merely a personal wish on my part.

Paradox, now that you mention the "uniform", I rarely go out in "full drag", even though I id as high femme. There's no mistaking me for butch, as I've often been told. That said, your comment reminded me that I often don't bother to get all femmed up unless it's a special occasion or at least Saturday night. My everyday femme look comes off as more "soccer mom". I notice butches and femmes, but only because I've had 25+ years practice recognizing us in my particular community. If other folks aren't seeing me as femme instead of soccer mom, that's my fault, I suppose, for not making more of an effort to show my queerness all the time.

Honeybarbara, a friend of mine has been complaining for 10 years about a lack of butches in Vancouver, BC. I have wondered if she means butches of a certain age group, though. She's pretty savvy about spotting butches with varying styles, in other cities. I'm curious, do you notice that the butches, of all styles, are in a particular age group in your area? Or is that a misperception on my part?

I see oodles of butches all over the place and there is a huge community of queer here. I see them every day. They dress anywhere from tomboy to hippy to queer fashionista to outdoorsy looking les.

She may not be noticing many because like you may look like a soccar mom, they look like they are about to go for a hike and look tomboy androgenous lezzo in their gear. Some of the butches wear make up (and are stone and tops).

I live in the east end of vancouver, but that said there are tons of sporty butches in the burbs. she is probably mistaking them for chapstick/sporty dykes. just like you might get misjudged as a soccar mom.

tell her to get her ass to queer as funk, queer box fit, the butch choir, or one of the leather events. Plus there is the queer film festival, the the queer arts events (always brings them out in droves), season fling queer dances at the wise hall, Man Up (stuffed full of butches)... and... well to list everything I'd have to go into my fb events. If she needs to see them dressed up and in context ;)

if she is talking about over a certain age (45 or so) yeah, they are thin on the ground. cause like everyone else, they usually have a partner/wife. Or they come from a time when it was really bad to have the ID. they still fuck the same and move the same and treat me the same, they just don't ID because they think it's wrong. But a rose by any other name is still one ;)

@honeybarara - Ah, that must be it, we're in the "over 45 or so" group, just barely. She has mentioned something about everyone already being paired up. I'll give her your list though. Thanks!

I'm 44 and I date older and younger. I go because the age range at these things is wide. as soon as one is single they go on POF or head out to the events. but that's like most of my friends, even who are straight. eveyone they like is paired up. its not a shortage of butches, its a shortage of single people when you get past a certain age range... at least thats what I find.

I certainly hope not though I do agree connecting can be hard especially depending on were you live I do feel like old school Butchs are a dying breed

Beep Beep
 

As of 2014 so far, I can say they're out there!

Possibly, life is in a constant rate/state of change.

Welcome aboard.

Don't get me wrong I want a true butch but one that enjoys her womyn side in bed :)... A butch that know the true song and dance..

I am reading this as you want a butch who is comfortable receiving sexual activity/ pleasure as well as giving her partner pleasure. (Correct me if I am wrong, please) You may be able to meet some butches of this type on the Lesbian Zone threads. There are a couple specifically geared toward butches who share this quality. Good luck with that!

I do feel a need to add, that I was put off a little by your use of the phrase " the true song and dance". There is NO true song and dance. We each have a different drum, a different dance and I am willing to bet that each one is simply divine in their own right. It may have been easier for me to read, if perhaps you had said something like " someone who dances to the same dance I do"... When someone uses absolutes, like "the true", it is really off putting to me. I have no doubt you didn't mean it as a slight or anything, it just struck a hint of discord with me, so I felt a need to mention it.

I do wish you luck in meeting butches who suit your desires and hope you enjoy all of your visits at the planet.

:hangloose:

I have to say, when I lived in Iowa, the straight farm women looked pretty butch…….. So looks are sometimes not helpful. BF is a complex dynamic, and it's not easy to find a compatible partner, period.

I bolded the parts of this I'm going to address.

It's perfectly fine for you to know what you're attracted to, what calls to you. I think it's great you know what you want.

However you do not get to quantify me or others. By my appearance or size or race, I would likely fall into your "no more than Chapstick Lesbians" model.

But I'm butch because I say I am, not because someone else conferred that upon me.

I bolded that last part because it seems incongruent with the prior statement. I'd like to believe this is true for you.

Well, I've reread this series of posts several times now and I thought I understood the original post, even with it's slightly ambiguous phrasing. Now that it's been examined, clarified and reclarified, I am confused. Maybe we all just have different ways of expressing ourselves and could use a little breathing room. I honestly saw the original post as a personal statement and not intended to offend anyone.

I agree. We don't all use the same language and if a person is not a regular B/F message board attender they would not know that certain words or phrasing can be insulting to others, if in their own little butch/femme/queer/lesbian community the terms are not insulting. We all have our own vernacular in our own community.

Yes, to breathing room, especially for those who do not know BFP's vernacular and "trigger points".

Intent. It's what for dinner.

Welcome to BFP ConCrtAnge1

Welcome to the planet concrtange :)

Just as the type of butch that you like is what you want, it would never do for me. I am not into old school type rules around "the dance" and in fact, I don't even believe in "the dance" because I never felt it in the UK the way it's touted in the US. I liked the freedom of there being no dance steps and no "understood" way of being. Nor do I believe in "energy".

Some butches click with me - and I have been with stone butches, transgender butches, transmasculine, genderqueer, tomboi, boi, butch women, butch as gender, and yeahokimbutchbutiloathetheIDsoletsjustnotgothere.
There is as many ways to be a "true" butch as there is flavours of ice cream in my local 200 flavours of gelato store. There's garlic ice cream, wasabi ice cream, lotusmoonseed cake ice cream, chocolate chili, purple yam, red bean and mango cinnamon. There's also milk free ice cream, made with coconut milk and agave juice. Plus sorbets.

Since coming out of my dating hibernation, I have had offers of dates from all sorts of butch. Some who feel uncomfortable IDing as it even though they are stone and more traditional. Some who are not cock identified yet don't see themselves as women either. Some who see themselves as purely masculine and yet gender less. But prefer female pronouns. Some that dress as dandies (she's a drag king from the UK living across the fiord from me) as a old style punk rock goth with eyeliner and a Mohawk (she's a tattoo artist that does a local circuit to up north and back) a stone butch welder that likes wearing beautiful hand made dress shirts and fashionable Japanese jeans, a Mexican Butch mama who is macha and grows plants in greens houses for a living, and as you might see her a Chapstick triathlete in ironman competitions - she's just coming to understand her butch self, an Irish stone butch woman, and old fashionedstone butch Sir. Also a transmasculine cop.

All of these are true. All of them. They all are true to who they are. Which is outside of the gender norm and have to fight for who they are on a fairly regular basis - less than they used to, granted, but they all still carry the scars of what it used to be like. And having a femme tell them that who they are, as they ID doesn't count is pretty cutting.

I'm just suggesting that instead of passing judgement on their identity, perhaps it might be prudent to say they just aren't your cup of tea, in terms of butch. For me, people who are very, very old school wouldn't suit me. But they still get to be who they say they are. No skin off my nose to let them have their ID and just because having a relationship with them wouldn't suit me, doesn't mean they aren't real butches.

I hope you can understand what I'm banging on about and you haven't slipped into a coma.
Gate keeping around gender and ID doesn't serve us very well. It just causes a lot of insecurities all round. :)

I agree re not pouncing on newbies.

However, I also agree that addressing things like "true butch" or saying people who call themselves butch are not in fact butch, but chapstick lesbians ought to occur.

We all know that as the language of oppression. No one wants to push newbies away, but no one wants to encourage language that harms either.

Collette, I am not attacking you or concreteangel, but these are the kinds of excuses people typically use when they have said something that is racist, homophobic, etc. They say it was a personal statement and deny that it was harmful. (Not saying concreteange did say this.)

In fact, saying that there is such a thing as a true butch . . . saying that a self-identified butch is not in fact a butch because she/he is not masculine enough is to make statements full of sexism and homophobia. And it's not OK. It doesn't mean the person who says them isn't entitled to her own preferences re dating. It means she doesn't get to decide what a butch is or who is butch and announce it to an entire community, where there are variety of butches, some of whom may be harmed by such a statement.

IMO, that doesn't mean anyone who says these things should be moderated or be made to feel unwelcome. But it does mean that people should respond. To her credit, Concert Angel was the first to respond to her own post. In any case.. , ,