Yeah, we'll see about the "restructuring and redistributing of power and name/focus" business, maybe we will. Then, again....

Okay, let's review....

We know what is happening. We know who is doing it (including Cordova). The only thing left to explore is the why of it.

I think the WHY OF IT goes to the core of Heart's post about leadership and "women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart is absolutely right. The issues she's raises are huge and not for the faint of heart. (No pun intended.)

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

Because we're suppose to be big tent people and just assimilate into other people's world view and characterizations of us, silly.

Talking among ourselves about issues of importance to us in a space of our own - how exclusive and discriminatory. :shocking:

I am no accountant, however, to ME their P&L's seem pretty detailed. I have looked at other transparent sites to try and compare, and mind you, I am no math whiz, but, theirs do seem to give a more accurate breakdown than most I have seen.

When I made a statement about them and their "non-profit/ not-for-profit" status, I mistakenly misread or misinterpreted what At Last had posted leading me to believe they were claiming to be of that tax exempt status. When I read Goldberg's press release ( which, btw, it always bothers me when someone reports "news" about themselves in third person) she clearly states that they are NOT not-for-profit. The "legal" standing or issues hinted at in At Last's post, was a comment Goldberg made referring to BV's legal standing in asking the volunteer members to sign a non-disclosure/ non-compete contract.

In so far as the telephone,hotel, car, travel, etc expenses, I would be willing to guess they are related to, at least in part, the Regional Symposiums they produce/host. From looking at the site, it appears they do a great deal of hands on out-reach involving different media and different cities across the country. These symposiums generate the majority of their income. They do not set up and run themselves. People are usually sent to events as supervisory roles or representatives or educators/speakers and just as the average working class person can't afford what persons in a better financial bracket might, the extra expense of a trip across country to try to carry the word may be a part of the budget built in by their board, in that BV carries the cost of the members who go "host" these events. I am not a member or board member there so I am simply guessing based on my experience on other boards/ groups, that this is not unheard of or even of questionable ethics.

As to the lack of a line item for "scholarships", there is none. However, they do clearly state on their Financial assistance page ...

"A NOTE ON FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE:
BUTCH Voices is an amazing organization, hoping to put on an amazing conference. While we are able to offer assistance, our funds are not limitless. We have a set budget for financial assistance (we would be happy to share that with you if you are interested in seeing it)."

From the format of their P&L's, I would assume that where a "budget" exists, an actual current and prior also exist. I would also assume that the choice to not post that in their P&L may come from privacy issues with the recipients of those awards.

I m not exactly sure why all of this ( your post) felt pointed toward me, I am sure part of it is just venting. I would like to point out that all I said is that their spreadsheets appear very transparent and clear to me and that IF they are a not for profit, they should consider declaring that. If they have what you view as some sort of discrepancies in their reporting perhaps they are lumping those costs into categories that the details of which are handled in an accountants journal. Who knows??? This "feels" to me very icky. I mean, seriously, our own transparent financials don't even include last years Reunion. At least, as far as I can tell. I've looked through a few admin oriented threads and just can't seem to find it, perhaps I am just missing it. So, I, can't attempt to second guess how their Board has decided to record/ post their business. So, moving on...

The biggest issue I have with it ALL... is that it just feels like once again plain ole butch dykes ( and generally speaking their femme partners/ spouses by affiliation) are being cast aside. It is not just there that it is happening. It is happening all over the LGBTQIA ( is that all of it?) community.

Scandal Andy... my describing MY butch experience(s) is very much a LESBIAN discussion. Here, I'll toss in a leap if it makes you more comfy... LEAP! ;) Sometimes we lesbians Leap for Joy... Sometimes we jump up and down to be heard as our... OUR VOICES are being strangled as much by our own "allies" as those other people we like to THINK oppress and erase us. Even on this site I have seen "lesbian sex" referred to as boring while accolades were strewn for hetero-sex. Interesting, no? Where the hell are we going as a queer community when we are blatantly criticizing lesbian sex over the newly ( and creepily in my world) preferred hetero-sex? This is just an example and not a jumping on someone for some other thread thing.

I apologize if my need to self reveal/ self discover read to you as a defining of butch. I am really, as always, just trying to wrap my head around all of this
ever changing stuff. It is just how I process. In my life experience, just mine mine mine... to be Butch was to be Lesbian. Perhaps that might help you get where I was coming from. It ( heh, the definition of Butch) HAS changed.

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

I really like it that on this website we have a pronouns preferred section, because it is difficult to keep up. On other sites the default was always "he" and I, as a Lesbian, love the word "she" is it relates to Butch.

You are not alone. :)

Maybe it is that we actually remember when things were really different for Women and Lesbians? And that we are so thankful and even surprised things have come so far that the memory of how women were treated way back when is fading?

For me, it would work better if the two had separate leadership on some issues and operated hand in hand.

I would like to see Women's organizations headed by Women.

That being said, I can understand how someone already in a leadership position can change their perception on how the identify as they discover their own mind and path.

I have no clue what the answer is, but discussing it really helps us think. :)


I agree with most of you post. I agree we should not all be melded into every Butch being a man...and not just because I dig Butches. lol. It is a different ID than Trans. Completely different.

However, I don't think this thread was created out of a power play in a malicious way. I think Liam was trying to be helpful. I do agree that it seems weird than a man started this thread and that being helpful when no help is wanted can seem heavy handed.

What would you like us to discuss? What what would be helpful to you?

Yes I am an out and proud Lesbian discussing Lesbian issues!

I think it just did not occur to anyone we would need a Lesbian Zone on a Lesbian website...and then when it because apparent that it was not just a Lesbian website people asked for the Zone and it was added.

I never posted in Dykes to Watch Out for Thread because I thought it was about the comic strip by a similar name and I never read it.

It is all about perception isn't it. :)

Great discussion!

Still hoping for a discussion of this:

This business of leadership style is about how power and control is welded.

The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center".

Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics.

"Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo)

For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...Leadership.pdf

Ah, the grand melting post of gender.

Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve? :sunglass:


Yep....


It is precisely about "blurring boundaries", "invading other's space" and "taking it upon themselves to speak for another".

In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden).


It's NOT about a "new world order coming". It's about the reinstatement of a very old world order.

When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns?

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

:confused:

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Exactly Bully..........

I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not.............

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming? :)

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.

'Cause we were told too. Don't be difficult.

You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you.

Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten.

Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.

It's right here (a little to the left) in the center... :sunglass:

http://i.infopls.com/images/states_imgmap.gif

Personally, I think Kansas is in the center..... :cheesy: