Butch visibility
 

As I start to write this I'm wondering if it might become something of a companion piece to the threads about femme invisibility. Of late I've been thinking a lot about this topic and to be frank, I've no idea where this post will wander as I drag it through my outfield. No doubt it will pick up bits here and there as it goes.

It it my hope that other butches will offer their experiences. I'd like to see what commonalities we share, how we vary and maybe shed some light on what it's truly like living in butch skin. I also invite femmes to participate. By all means, please feel free to share anything that comes to mind.

There is no mistaking that I am butch. Pretty much anyone who looks at me can see that. I could march down Main St. in a prom gown and tiara (don't hold your breath) and still read butch. While it might not immediately register that I am gay to some, that I am clearly far to the masculine side of the female spectrum is undeniable. Every day, many times a day, I out myself simply by existing. There are instances when my visibility is a good thing. That cute girl who flirts with me every time she sells me a baguette, the clearly present camaraderie with the butch who works at the recycled building supply place, the chuckle I get every time the check gets put down in front of me when I'm out with a more feminine woman, the straight guy who mows my lawn and refers to me as "dude"; in those circumstances it's really nice to have such open, comfortable acknowledgement, free of negativity, judgement and backlash. Then there are the other times. The guy at the locally owned hardware store who seems to tighten up every time he sees me, who waits on me because he has to but who cannot ever seem to completely suppress his derision. I can almost hear it bouncing around in his head like a ball bearing in an empty can, " fuckin' dyke...". The look of surprise upon meeting a new client with whom I've only spoken on the phone prior to that face to face moment. The boyfriend/husband/male friend who protectively takes the hand of his female companion if I happen to dare to smile in her direction, regardless of her response to me. The guys who look at me askance when I'm at the barbershop, wondering why a woman has invaded their man place. Sometimes I almost pity people for their reactions. Other times I want to lash out, say something like "What the hell are you looking at, fucktard?" I don't, though. I've come to a point in my life of finally, truly understanding the merits of picking one's battles. Were I so inclined, I could expend copious energy railing against any number of perceived slights, but really, it would be little more than shouting into the void. It wouldn't change anything and it would only serve to drain me. It also won't change the fact that I am butch, that I will never melt into the straight world in a way that would make some of the crap disappear. So, I shoulder it. Every time I leave my house. Every time I get out of my car. Every time I open my mouth. I shoulder it and I embrace it. I also revel in it because my being butch has brought into my life some of the most amazing women, both butches and femmes; people I might likely have not had the joy and privilege of meeting and coming to know and count as friends and lovers.

Yeah, it's really hard sometimes. Other times it outright rocks. Please...tell me won't you...what is it like for you?

I'm thinking I might have to nudge this a time or two to keep it up there. Here's hoping I don't begin to feel like Sisyphus.

Thank you Breathless, both for you compliment and your input. You're so right in several ways. The manner in which some of my brethren become so psychically beaten down breaks my heart. To fear possible scorn and isolation on a daily basis simply because you are being true to yourself can be irreparably corrosive. I am incredibly fortunate to be surrounded by people who accept me just the way I am. Perhaps that is due in large part to me being quite comfortable in my own skin, I don't know. No doubt some of it comes from that attitude you mentioned, of not caring and considering the source when someone tries to smack me down for being who I am.

I didn't go into the whole "you don't look butch" aspect in my initial post only because it could probably be a thread unto itself. Still, I hope it will be discussed here, too. I'd love for us to delve into appearance, mannerisms, mentalities...all of it. That is the beauty of butchness, the infinite variety.

It took me a while to be comfortable in my skin and be the butch I am and proud of it I to get the looks and even on our vacation I got security called on me because I used the ladies room hell I have been using the damn ladies room all my life. IDK I am happy to just be me to get my hair cut where I want and how I want to have a partner who loves and respects me just as I am to be respected and valued at work. Even when someone refers to me as sir or by a male pronoun the officers I work with get very protective when that happens but it is all good with me. I think it is because now I am happy to be butch and damn proud of it but it was a long winding journey to find me

Thanks for starting the thread Ascot. I of course, am on the outside looking in, I have my own battles with being "seen" as Femme. So although I have not walked a mile in your shoes, I do have a little idea of what you and other Butches live with daily.

In this neighbor hood I'm living in now the folks know I'm one of "those gals", and at this age most folks don't care much because the thought of 'old people' having sex is gross, ask any teenager.

I usually read "Straight" or "Grandmother". In some areas it's safer to be read in those terms. Sad but true.

But of course the only time I get read as Femme right out of the gate is here.:rrose:

A while back, I had a butch friend in my life, who, while at work, did not appear to be butch at all. After working hours, however, her clothing changed entirely, and there was no doubt whatsoever that she was butch. I never thought anything less of her, for that. She was just doing what she felt that she had to do, for her career field, and I supported her in that.

I appreciate your sharing that, Nadeest. Did your friend ever speak to what that experience was like for her? Did it bother her or was it more a Clark Kent/Superman sort of thing? I understand that it's something she felt she had to do, but that doesn't mean either that it was easy or that it sat well with her. Is she in education? I hope it was something she was able to do without feeling as though she was having to live some weird double life. That would suck. Epically.

I'm glad you feel the way you do, Bard. I think it's much easier to go through life when you can accept, embrace and celebrate who you are.

I hear many butches talk about their journey, whether to a place of recognition, acknowledgement, for some it might even be resignation. I'm not cognizant of a journey of my own, per se, I think because I've known for so very long, I mean pretty much from the time I was a really little kid, that I am both butch and queer. I don't think that I ever experienced a growing into it because I was never not in it. Does that make sense? I do know, though, that the paths for many have been and still are not unlike mine fields hidden beneath thickets of blackberry vines. The way can be arduous and painful and dangerous. Life threateningly so, even.

I hit a point in my life where I said "FUCK IT! It's not my problem if they can not accept who I am", I stopped worrying about it that day. Everything about me shouts BUTCH! From my full arm tribal tattoo to the boxing I do for sport. I walk around oblivious to the looks people give me because I simply don't care. I am who I am, nothing is going to change it. I have been butch from birth. It is my natural state of being. Somebody somewhere is always going to judge me, be my guest! I don't need their approval to be me. It's that simple for me.

She was just starting a new career field, at that time, and it was important that she dress well. We didn't talk about it much, to be honest.

piece of fucking cake , until I gotta pee

I came out once in my life at 18 , The end.

I feel so lucky to be obvious and can not even imagine what
femme's have to go through to be out as queer. At every new
job? With every new friendship? It sounds exhausting, I hate shit like that.
I had to be brave only that one fucking time and I'm old now.

So , thank you to the femme's who go out there in the world and say queer
looks like this too , ovah and ovah again (f)

when we are out Desd always goes with me to public bathrooms at a casino I have had little old ladies run in fear.. a couple of times with my daughter people have said I was in the wrong bathroom and my Goose got pissed and stamped her little foot as loudly said " this is my Mama" my oh so protective girls

I am very hard to miss in a social situation, until people see My chest, I have not had top surgery yet, so sometimes that's the only clue given off that I am not bio male. And it's saved My butt more than once in public restrooms. It's extremely difficult to travel this earth and not be stared at, talked about, looked at with disdain.

I have been threatened, chased, and damn near accosted in a bathroom by a group of women at a wedding in Atlanta. I was chased out of a small town by a small group of teenage boys, the only reason I did not stand My ground, as was My usual reaction, was because I had My 6 year old son with Me. The clerk at the counter and I made eye contact as she picked up the phone to call the local police, she seemed more scared than I. My son was terrified. I had done nothing more than stand in line with My boy waiting to pay for a pizza.

I have been in more bar brawls than I care to admit, due to rowdy college boys believing I was unaware that I was "some kinda fuckin dyke". I never backed down, until that day with My son. Here in My hometown, I was the first out "lesbian", and over the years, this town has become quite the little queer friendly place to live. But back then it was not nearly as accepting. It is when I go out of town where I run into trouble now.

My wifey does not understand why I am always watching the crowd, why, if I see a group of "questionable" men approaching us, I may take My hand from hers. She says it's My being ashamed, I cannot make her understand, it's self preservation at times. I am 47 years old now, and I am not nearly as quick to jump into a fight with a 20 frat boy as I used to be.

You can be damn sure, no matter where we are, I am constantly scanning the crowd, waiting for a fist to fly. This is Texas, in most towns, it's still frowned upon, and trust Me, I've been kicked enough times, punched enough times, and chased enough times to know when to run. And I won't put My girl through that, if she's still innocent to the thought of anti-gay, homophobic hate filled attacks, I will do what I can to keep it that way.

You pose great questions. My first inclination is to say that probably the best thing to be done is to simply act as though nothing out of the ordinary is occurring, because when it comes down to it, nothing is. As an aside, on behalf of the butch nation, I want to issue the most sincere and deeply felt gratitude to every fierce femme who has ever taken umbrage when they perceive a butch has been mistreated. To every brave woman who has taken a stand in defense of someone wronged because somehow they don't quite fit someone else's idea of acceptable, normal, safe or decent, you have my utmost respect. Regarding what's to be done, I suppose it comes down to the specifics of the situation, the offense and the parties involved, doesn't it? Mostly, just be there for us. Allow us our reactions, concerns and vulnerabilities. If you want to punch someone in the neck, I'll hold your purse and have your back. (No, of course I'm not actually advocating violence) Just be with us. You might be amazed at how much of a balm just your existence and love is. For that, many of us would willingly walk through hell. Many of us do.

The visibility vs. invisibility thing...I really don't know what to say about that. Both have their pros and cons, don't they.

This is the kind of story that tears at my soul. It is just astounding to me to what lengths people are driven by fear and ignorance. When I read something like this I realize how fortunate I've been. I've not once been faced with actual violence for being a butch dyke. Maybe I've always lived in places that are more progressive or open? Who knows. I also don't keep a constant vigilance and perhaps I've had close calls without ever being aware of it. I am not a big fan of PDAs but that's mostly because I find them tacky, and it has little to do with what others would think about it. Having said that, I will hold my girl's hand and not think twice about it, regardless of where we are or who's around. If the spirit moves me, I'll probably kiss her, too. I suppose part of my feelings about public displays have to do with me not wanting to share her with others in that manner. It boggles my mind, what some people find threatening.

I'm very quick to defend the butch women in my life, and butches in general. Last night I was told by someone who should know better that she can't "get women who act just like guys."

Deep breath.

I told her that it's more likely that guys act like butches. The butch women I know have innate, natural masculinity that bubbles up through them like an Arkansas hot spring. Straight guys are constantly posturing and trying to figure out how to not get called 'faggot', so their masculinity is often forced and performative. While I've witnessed butches sometimes aping the the worst aspects of straight male culture, the butch women in my life are just behaving naturally. I often think that men would do well to model their behaviours on butch women.

This is exquisite. Thank you.

That "women who act just like guys" sentiment...damn that rankles me. Come to think of it, I fucking hate it. It's often cheek and jowl with "If you're going to be with a woman who looks like a man, why not just be with a man?" Sometimes in the face of such ignorance, even I, who usually never shuts up, am speechless. I love, love what you said, " that men would do well to model their behaviours on butch women."

Imagine such a world.

My wife (who is butch) is the same way. Certain crowds, she will not hold my hand at all. A few of our straight couple friends don't truly get it when we decline to go to the local straight bars. She's been hit a few times and oh she is a scrapper too. I don't take it personal. I understand.

I am more quick with my tongue when it comes to her. We were at a cascino food court line when the couple behind us asked if my wife was a guy? I put my arm around my wife, turned around and said "She's more a man then your husband is" Said wife wasn't too happy. They quickly left the foodcourt line. HA! My wife just shook her head at me.

Despite all the homophobia and misogyny one can encounter as a butch, I am very happy to be seen as a dyke. Unfortunately, it is based on stereotypes- because femmes and less masculine appearing lesbians or others who don't fit the "stereotype" are just as lesbian/gay/queer as I am. I do not fall under the "male gaze," I do not have to repeatedly come out, my "queerness" is not suspect- all things that femmes have to deal with. For the most part I am treated fine. The problem is homophobia can spring up at any time, but I just deal as needed- mostly by not responding to it. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wouldn't trade being a Butch for anything.

I get it. It can be a tough call sometimes, the should we/shouldn't we thing. My approach is to be who I am, wherever I am, and if that means wanting to hold my girlfriend's hand then that's what I'm going to do. I am not responsible for others' reactions, but I am prepared to deal with them should they be inappropriate. I think that I've finally learned that I don't have to be so antagonistic. I confess I used to be quite invested in being a fire brand but eventually realized that that behavior, while it might have been fun in the moment, ultimately didn't serve me or anyone else well. It's really easy for me to go to that place, to make a crack, get defensive. I can do that in my sleep. I take it as indicative of my own growth that that is rarely my first inclination anymore. And, if it is, I'm pretty much able to override it at least to the extent that it doesn't manifest outwardly. These days I actually endeavor to engage people in civil exchanges in such a way that might help them realize, in spite of the overt differences, we also have some similarities. Common ground, whatever it is, "Oh, hey, look, we're at the same concert" or, "Yeah, wow, I know! Can you believe someone would actually be brave enough to paint their house that color?" is a great unifier. It's pretty cool when someone comes around. I feel triumphant, maybe even a little tingly. We part, potential animosity possibly dispelled or at least diluted, perhaps each a bit better for the experience. I'm sure to some this will sound like so much fairy tale bullshit. Blah, blah, Ascot, easy for you to say. You know what? It's not easy to say. That shit takes effort. It requires wise choices be made. Yes, it sucks that we have to make them but it is all part of this life we're in.

Amen. I wouldn't trade it either. To be butch, to be the counterpart to the breathtaking panoply of gloriousness that is everything femme...no, I wouldn't trade it for anything at all.

Damn, now I'm thinking about all the things I so love about femmes, every kind of femme, each unique unto herself. I could go on for days and never feel as though I'd expressed enough appreciation, fondness, affection and admiration. The lust thing, that would definitely take eons, too.

Vive la difference!

Yes, I agree Ascot. I am happy to be who I am and much better equipped to face the type of challenges butches face than the one femmes do, but every femme I have ever known is comfortable in her own skin and very happy to be femme. So vive la difference.

Some times while walking around this "good ole boy" state is a test to my sanity ha. I go to the men's department to shop And some times ignored by staff or asked if they can help me find my husband something. Here I am standing there with my men's dress pants shirt and tie. I usually in my deep voice tell them as politely as I can "I am the the damn husband" I don't really call myself that in my world but it seems that's all these back woods Bible thumpers understand. (No I have no problem with religion unless its used the way it is here) I suppose Maybe its the shoulder length blonde hair. Last night my wife and I went out to eat and it was one of the packing nights for me so the swagger and the butch vibes were pulsing ha. And while we are sitting at the bar waiting for our table we actually had men come over to her and try to flirt. All while she is holding my hand in her lap. I wanted to beat on my chest and start kicking some ass. Point is when people aren't acting like if I get close I may give them my butch germs they are trying to pretend I'm not here. Like if they don't make eye contact I'll go away. I do have a wonderful wife the leaned over and gave me a nice long kiss that left no doubts about what I was to her. Sorry for the rant. With the butch population being almost nonexistent in my town it feels good to say what's on my mind.

No apology necessary. I'm glad you feel you can speak your mind here. Welcome to the Planet.

I, thus far, have only dated butch or FTM folks. I always worry about safety when it comes to my partners, especially in the bathroom. One of my ex's had so many bad experiences that she refused to use a public bathroom. My heart broke over this. Something I easily take for granted was something that caused paralyzing fear in her. I would offer to go with her, but even then she still struggled. I often complain about being an "invisible femme", but often forget to count the times that I have hidden behind that invisiblilty.

Chris1.....so sorry that happened to you. I hate it when men just ignore my Butch and hit on me or denigrate her by ignoring her. I always let them know that I choose to be with her, and that yes indeed I am a lesbian, thanks but no thanks. For some undeard of reason, they seem to think their 'junk' is the magic potion to turn Femmes into staight girls....

My Butch had something of the same happen to her recently. We were waiting in line to check out for groceries, and she had had her arm around me, obviously we were a couple. She took the cart to the end of the belt and waited for me to check out. This guy walked up right next to me and got all in my space, and did this really denigrating whole body sweep. Starting at my breasts(of course) and working his way down. I didn't catch it at first, my mind was on groceries, was but my Butch had gone all red in the face and that caused me to look at this creep. He leered at me, so I just stared at him. I stared him right in the eyes, and waited for him to look away. Finally he did. I then went over to my Butch and said 'come on Babe let's get home" and looked back over my shoulder to shoot him a nasty look. He finally looked embarassed.

Most men are larger than women, so I carry Pepper Spray. I know without a doubt that she would step in to protect me, but I don't want to take the chance that someone would hurt her, so better well armed.......

With butch visibility/invisibility, I experience both.

One time at work for 7-11, guy comes in addressing me as sir. It felt great to know I look masculine enough to fool dudes. I do have to wear a binder sometimes though if that's what I'm going for. Anyway, he wants to switch out propane tanks. What typically happens if they realize I'm a female is they will pick it up and carry it out for me to exchange it. Which bothers me. This guy didn't notice though, and left it at the door for me to pick up/carry and switch out. It felt freakin awesome. I know there would be social frowning upon a man that left a female to carry something "heavy"...just sucks for me to live in that kind of world. I can handle my damn self.

Then I have bad days too. If I let my hair get too long, and I don't wear a motorcycle helmet when I'm out on my bike, my hair gets super puffy...awful lol. I recently had someone tell me I don't look masculine at all, they didn't know I was a butch, alla that shit.

A month ago before this site I proly would have ran out and got a haircut right away...made it another two weeks though haha. Been learning a bit on here, getting better with being confident enough of myself to not let crap like that bother me

This looks like the best place for this:

Brittney Griner To Be First Openly Gay Athlete To Sign With Nike–And She’ll Be Modeling Men’s Apparel

http://madamenoire.com/280296/brittn...-mens-apparel/

Go Nike!

Thanks for posting that link, Toughy. I think this is a great place for it.

I don't know how you write Nike.......

We all know Nike will come under HUGE fire for this. They need to hear support for their decision.

Public relationships
One Bowerman Drive
Beaverton , Or. 97005


Nice! Good for her!

Allow me to translate
Posting from fn phone


Nike World Headquarters
Public Relations
One Bowerman Drive
Beaverton , Or.
97005

That's awesome, thanks for sharing! It's funny cause I was just walking down the street the other day and saw a billboard with models for men's clothes and did a bit of a double take. The models they used at first glance made me think they were possibly either butch or transguys, but then figured "nah, big clothing company like that would never do it." But did think how cool it would be to have butch and/or trans models. It's not so much that I'm into clothes/brands/modeling but I just think it would be cool as hell to for once be able to look at someone with a similar identity/body as me modeling a shirt I'd like to wear or something.

I was in downtown SF......it's Pride Month......rainbow flags everywhere and the City is starting to buzz......lots o lots o people will be here soon.

They have 6' tall billboards on the streets that are triangles. I was standing on a corner and looked over and saw this on one of them:

Butches, Bears and Furries
will love
Mini Coopers

of course there were pics of minis on the ad.....it was slick and glossy

swear to the Goddess........I love living here.

Yay.
 

I'm happy to see this thread getting a bump. Thanks, folks!

I couldn't find the righ place to put this so please excuse me if this dosen't reason for the tread.
O.k hear it is.I leave for Vegas for a pool tournament with my ladies 8 ball team on the 14th of this month we have been a team for three years so know each other pretty well.We planed on all pileing up into two ajoining rooms...all eight of us.Most of them have no problem being in some stage of undress in the rooms,normaly this wouldn't be aproblem if I were straight but i'm not..not by a long shot.When we were being fitted for our team uniforms it was like a rolling strip joint at the tailors haveing shirts/pants altered to fit.I had to have my pants hemed as well as my shirt fitted a bit better so it wouldn't sag like a over large bag..I cant help if I have broad shoulders from lifting weights plus my arms are fairly bulked up with ment I had to get a shirt a sise larger to make it work.Well when I droped down to my skivies and binder they just staired,one had the guts to say ..you don;t wear girly undies?No says I,I go for what I feel good about wearing,besides I don't need to explane what wear.Most I doubt will have a problem but I really think a couple will.Other than getting my own room wich I can't afford this may or may not be slightly uncomfortable issue..Me,i'm not locker room shy but no matter how lebarated they may be..well they may really not be.Any ideas or recomendations will be greatly appresheated.Or I may well be just an old worry wart,dealing with straights can be difficult at times.

I am shaking with anger after reading some of these posts. I cannot understand how people can treat others like some of you have been treated. I am about to possiblly be very corny or ovely mushy but butches are ahhhhmazing. The ones I know are strong, intelligent, charming, chivalrous and yet are also soft, romantic, loving people. The perfect blend of everything good in the world. I tell my girlfriend that she should write a book to men teaching them how to be good, solid people. Obviously, I don't mean ALL men but the many I have known were useless humans. I am VERY protective of my butch but am also very protective of my butch friends and my FTM friend. I love butches, each and every one of you.