"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society
 

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

I think times have way changed and many attributes that used to be seen as "masculine" can apply to anyone now.

It really freaked me out when I realized I was a Lesbian and people kept telling me how feminine I am...growing up everyone was always all over me trying to get me to BE more feminine.

I like a partner who is not way set into being entirely masculine in every way. One, because we are both women and two, because in many ways even though I look pretty damn girly, I am not, especially emotionally and sexually.

Now, if you look at us on the outside, then yes we LOOK very traditionally boy/girl.

edited to add: I am in a relationship with a woman, I am not saying that everyone on this site is a woman, many are not. :)

Great Discussion
 

As for what is considered "masculine" that is indeed a sticky wicket. So much of what is defined as "masculine" is influenced by family and society and culture so I can't speak from anything but my own experience.

I was raised by a quiet man who treated everyone with courtesy and respect, but women a bit more so by opening doors, paying the bill, etc. As such, I picked that up. Because I'm a woman, I intrinsically value the strength, independence and determination found in women. Being born a woman, I understand firsthand what it means to be invisible or passed over as a result of "male privilege." If I had been born a male, or self-identify as a male, I may not fully understand these concepts on a deep seated level. As such, I think that influences how I treat women with my "masculine" nature.

With all that said, I do find that I naturally have many traits that society deems "masculine" (whether right or wrong.) I'm logical, not much of a talker except those close to me, a "fixer" a "protector" and a "provider." Those are all comfortable for me. However, other areas that society deems "masculine" I'm loathe to embrace simply because I identify more as "butch" than as "femme" such as : aggressive, cocky, brash, a womanizer, etc. Note that I don't assume that to identify as "butch" one is any of those things, but from my experience over the years, I've witness many "butch" women (especially in the early coming out years) look at their male counterparts and choose to automatically demonstrate all behaviors and dress (positive and negative) simply as the "easy" way to seem more masculine rather than look within themselves to define their own demonstration of their masculine traits.

For me, I need to be with someone that exhibits some of the more traditional traits and actions of masculinity that you are probably attracted to yourself.

I like the physical manifestation of masculinity as I see it, such as shorter hair, callused hands, deeper voice, and masculine dress.

It's not only because it's what I like to see and feel, but the more masculine my partner presents, the more feminine I feel. Some femmes view themselves the same no matter who they are with. I am not like that. I need that balance.

For myself, it is similar to OFOS butches in behavior and mannerisms and looks, yes.

I loved this post as a whole, but especially the underlined parts.

I love the representation of masculinity, but not when it turns into a WWF free for all. The brassness and crude behaviors can take a hike for all I care. Please don't posture. It's not pretty and it's not productive.

The other behaviors and traits that you described are lovely, though.

one man's opinion
 

i think that the changes that are being "forced" on men/masculinity are a function of social evolution. nothing remains the same forever. i'm sure that the brand of masculinity that was prevalent in the 40's would look positively sissified to men of earlier times...say the mid 19th century type of masculinity. times change and people change with them, or they perish. i think that with the advances in equality for women, men have felt less inclined to be as chivalrous as was once the norm. evolution or just pissed off? the reason doesn't matter so much as the end result. i think we are seeing a response to men not being the sole support of families, women having careers outside the home and, in general, becoming even marginally more equal to their male counterparts. i think, in part, men resent women not "needing" them for as much as they once did...although that means a lighter work load for men in general. perhaps the resentment is based in feeling less valued? (talk about your shoe on the other foot)

i was raised by my grandparents. the values they instilled in me are those of folks who grew up in a rural, less educated, depression era. i find that my standards for behavior (for myself and others) is based in those values. personally, i think women are the most magnificent creatures on the planet. being raised female, i can see a bit of both sides here...i'm not inclined to erase the first part of my life to live this part of it. i understand being undervalued, considered "less than". it has been my experience that women are some of the strongest, most formidable people there are. i don't have the resentment of women that many born men have...i lived too long in a female role to do that.

my grandmother always told me that good manners never go out of style. she was right. i was raised to be mannerly, considerate and courteous. my gender has nothing to do with exhibiting those qualities. am i masculine? ask anyone who knows me in real time. even the guys i know now think i'm a cool dude...and i'm not shy about saying i enjoy cooking or that i'm good with laundry or that i want to try my hand at quilting. i like to think that i'm just a well mannered, well rounded man.

I was raised mostly by my paternal grandfather who was a five-star gentleman -- impeccable manners, impeccable taste in everything. I grew up emulating him in many ways. I open doors, hold out chairs, stand up when a girl gets up or enters a room, take off my ballcap for the national anthem, the whole deal. I like to pay the tab, but was softened up a bit last year while spending time with a European woman who found my manners horribly old-fashioned.

I was also raised around very old school Polish-Catholic uncles on the other side of the family, who were rowdy, loud, whistled at pretty girls, yet would take out anybody with a punch who disrespected their mom or their sisters.

My life is a study in dichotomy.

I've worked hard the last few years to better understand and to better communicate with women. I've learned to express myself when I am comfortable doing so, and sometimes when I am not comfortable doing so. It's really hard to get over those stoic German roots. I'm a writer by trade, and I often find it easier to discuss my feelings on paper (and sometimes in email, though I loathe it as a medium).

I think manners are taught, along with respect. Sometimes, though, we pick up bad habits of passive-aggressiveness or shutting off communication when faced with a big problem. I try very hard to treat everyone around me with kindness and respect. It's only at work that I can be an aggressive, direct person...but that seems to motivated people in that setting. I'm a nice guy, basically, and I don't like to think I am a dying breed.

Jake

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

thank you...i had supposed it was along these lines. your dad and mine must be of about the same age.

i love the fact that he's fabulous with floral arrangements. i also find that kind of ironic, in a conversation about "traditional" male roles.

for the most part, i would agree with your dad's measure of a man. it sounds as if the emotional piece is what's problematic for him.

while frustrating for men "of a certain age", perhaps this shift toward sensitivity and emotion on the part of men bespeaks progress for men in their overall evolution.

So do you typically date Men, or Butches?

Is this what it is to be a gentleman? (from Feministing)
 

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


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Thoughts?

A problem for me has been expecting my partners to be a certain way based on what they look like or who they say/think they are.

If they present themselves as men in a "traditional" non "sensitive" kind of way, and I act accordingly (naturally), since I am horribly lacking on the romantic (remembering your birthdays and anniversary) and cuddling/foreplay department. They are upset that I am treating them like a man, when they are not. While really I am just being myself.

I see myself as a dude emotionally and have been told that by every single person I have dated in my 32 years of dating. I try to be more emotional and romantic, I do.

So expecting a person to be a certain way even if they think themselves that they are traditionally masculine in every way, does not mean they really are.

Am I making any sense at all?

I love good manners!

But yes, I would rather be paid as an equal in the work place over someone buying me dinner I can afford and expecting something in return. I would rather be the one paying and expecting ;).

Chivalry to me brings up Medieval courtly expectations of a knight in shining armor rescuing a poor defenseless maiden sort of thing.

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

Like I said, I love good manners :)
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored. :)

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....:amsmiling:

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful. :)

I think you put a finger on my problem....the whole "a lady acts this or that way" and yes I found it very shaming growing up.

Many women tell me I have masculine energy, masculine behaviors, masculine traits.

I don't argue. I embrace that about myself. That's me, you know?

In fact, everything society associates with feminine is a completely foreign thing to me. Some of my straight guy friends will come to me to explain women to them, and I say to them, "I have no idea, man. I am as mystified as you sometimes." But that's all part of the allure to me...I like being mystified. ;)

Jake

I accept the fact that the binary doesn't work, for some, however, it works for me, and I find that I have a great deal of freedom in my masculinity. I don't find it to be a rigid construct, that dictates what I do or don't do, but one that I and other masculine people are shaping, minute by minute, day by day, with the choices that we make in our lives.

I embrace ways of being which are considered "traditional," for males, yet I am also sensitive, and capable of talking about my feelings. Discussing my feelings, was not something that came naturally to me, I worked very hard for many years to learn how to communicate with people, and even more years and hard work to learn how to identify and express my feelings.

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

I am Femme and I have little idea of what a feeling actually is or what women want.

People are all different and those differences do not always run on gender lines.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong:|