Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)
 

ETA by Linus: This thread was created out of this other existing thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1235) and put as a separate thread to allow it to be discussed on it's own. Enjoy


I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

omg that is funny as shit. I would love to be a fly on the wall in your world sometime. I think its very cool how candid, open and honest you are.

Unless the bisexual male were part of the queer community or part of the bisexual community (which exists)

I don't understand why a bisexual man would *tend* (your word) to be a part of the gay male community.


Dylan

Shrug. Wasn't my point. Yes there are different types of communities that theoretically a bisexual man could be a part of.

On the flip side a lot of trans men are going to be sadly disappointed if they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women.

I would really appreciate someone explaining to me how One 'acts like a biomale'


Seriously, Since It's Been Said So Many Times In This Thread,
Dylan

Is there a transman in this thread or on this site who has said they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women?


Because I'm Not Seeing Your Point,
Dylan...would think ANYONE with expectations is going to be disappointed when dating REAL people

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

LOL, thank you.. Yeah, it seems like my life is a sitcom at times.. That's ok, more laugh lines for me :D

On the topic.. I am enjoying everyone's posts so far.. Love the way folks have been honest and yet not defensive :)

-Tony

I am involved with someone who is TG. He is a man. So much so that how his body looks is irrelevant. I have been with cis men. I have been with women. He ain't a woman. He doesn't think like one. He doesn't act like one. He isn't one. He doesn't want to be one. He isn't more sensitive and there isn't some beautiful dual energy with him. If there was I wouldn't be there. Period. Was he socially conditioned as a woman? Yes. Does that make him not from Mars? No.

I think we all go through periods of time when we try out different ID's and try new things to see what works for us. Many TGs and FTMs that I know (and I make it sound like I know 1000s, in reality it's more like 10.) have ID'd differently at different times in their life just like the rest of us. At no time does that change the core of who we are or who they are. For example, I'm an asshole. This is true whether I call myself a sweet girly girl or not - and I'm still an asshole regardless of who I wake up next to.

How I chose to ID has no bearing on his ID. I don't have to explain that or justify it to anyone. We get it. We are what matters at the end of the day.

And if he said to me tomorrow, we are outta this community (in general not BFP specifically) - I would go in a heartbeat - because I have seen just how unwelcoming and just how separatist this community can be when it comes to TG's, male IDs and FTM's. Everyone ELSE can be who they are except for them. Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

Trying to be back on topic: I know for me personally I was attracted to his dominance, stubborness and inability to see reason. I <3 meanies.

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

I never said anyone is 'supposed to be' attracted to anyone they're not attracted to

I said (basically), don't expect transmen to act a certain way or lump us all together with (gross) stereotypes...there's a big difference between that and what you're saying


You're Mixing My Words And You're Mixing My Words With The Words Of Other Posters,
Dylan

Mmmm.. You don't need to be attracted to ALL men.. But, if a queer femme is attracted to me, I would want them to be attracted to me as the man I am and always have been, rather then as someone that was a woman and now looks like a man.. you know?

mmmm.. I get your frustration here, and I agree that it isn't fair for the full weight of understanding be put on a femme's shoulders.. I posted in another thread about how I am "relearning" a lot of what I learned about femmes.. Just as a bio guy would have to "relearn" a lot of the stereotypes put out there about what a woman is, isn't and supposed to be..

Just my input. :)

-Tony

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....

I think it may be a mutual love of grape soda.. But I could be wrong..

I love when you get all two-spirity and third sexed and start asking questions


Femmes Are Just So Sensitive And Caring...Oh, And Great Bakers And Cleaners Too...But They Really Show Off Their Gendered Duality When They Start Asking Questions...It's Just Such A Turn On,
Dylan

You know.. I'm so not going to be a smartass here.. but I will say this.. No one does laundry better then a femme that is bare foot and in the kitchen.. and preggers with our love chile..

But really.. I know a transguy that can fluff and fold like nobody's business!

-Tony, who is totally being a smart ass.. Not all femmes can do laundry the way I like it..

Ha, ha. I am attracted to femmes.

Dylan, no I don't think all queers are lesbians.

Tony, I believe I understand what you are saying about seeing you as the man you always have been. I think honoring the journey someone has been on, no matter how they identify or what their gender is, is important. I get puzzled because there are different types of women. Why wouldn't there be different types of men? There are femme women, butch women, straight women, bisexual women, women who do not identify beyond woman, etc etc etc. I am attracted to femme women, not all women. I don't expect a femme who is attracted to butch women to necessarily be attracted to all women.

Some trans men are a part of queer communities and some aren't. Some feel their past growing up as female is an important part of their journey. Some don't.

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm confused about some of the terms. What is the difference between ftm and transman. Some posters seem to be using the two terms separately with different meanings. What does CIS stand for. Sorry to butt in to the thread but I'm finding the discussion very interesting but I get confused in places when it come to terminology.

My understanding, and how I will id when I go on T, is as trans. I would not id as ftm unless I had bottom surgery (genital reconstruction surgery) , which I am not planning to have. But I believe this is not the same way others define ftm. I've had top surgery and the hysterectomy and I've recently decided I will take the next step and take T. Once I take T I would id as trans. Right now I id as stone butch. I think that sometimes all the different terms I see here confuse me, as how I'm defining these terms are different from how the poster is defining them.



Rufus

So, out of all of the people who've stated 'transmen don't act like *bio*men', no one can tell me how *bio*men act?

I guess too that *bio*men must not be 'sensitive' and 'in touch'

And since when did being 'sensitive' become a 'two spirity' thing? I mean, if your dad is being 'sensitive' is he all of the sudden 'two spirited'? Or is he just being a sensitive guy?

And, um, I've been on dates with a number of men who have held the doors and all o' that...so, since when did that become a 'special thing only transguys do?'

I mean, if I'm out with Mahhh Woman, and she opens the door, does that make her 'two spirity'?

Seriously, when in the HELL did these masculine/feminine social conditionings all of the sudden make anyone else dual gendered? If Mahhh Woman changes the tire, is she all of the sudden 'remembering her roots as a man' or some other b.s.? If my dad cooks dinner is he showing off his 'female' side?


Seriously, Isn't This The Type Of Thing We're Always Bitching About When It Comes To What Is Butch/What Is Femme/How Do You Define High Femme-Low Femme?,
Dylan

Hiya, Rufus :)

Just to give my deffinitions to some of those terms.. FTM is anyone that was born female but is going to or has transitioned to male.. This could be mentally, with hormones, or with all the sugeries.

Transgender is anyone that identifies as other then the "norm" for those born to any one body or sex. This can be a transgender Butch that has no desire to make physical changes, but who identifies as something other then what society terms as "she".

Transsexual is someone that has taken steps to change physically into what thier insides are.. So that the outside matches the inside..

These are *MY* personal deffinitions, and others may have diffrent ones.. Websters may have something totally diffrent still..

CIS is a term used to describe a male that was born male, or a female that was born female.. I have no idea where it came from, I just started hearing it in use about 6 months ago *shrugs*

Hope that helps out a bit and IMHO, whatever terms you are comfortable with, use them.. OWN them :) *pwn*

-Tony

'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

I’d like to point out that answering the question of what attracts one to a specific group - whether it be men or women, in general, FTMs, MTFs, butches, femmes, etc., etc.* - would seem to require an appeal to stereotype. How else could the question be answered? And I can certainly see how, when that stereotype is articulated, it could be hurtful or offensive.

So what are we to make of that? Does it mean that all those who are not entirely pansexual trade in stereotypes, are worthy of blame? I’m honestly not sure how to work this problem out, exactly, but I do want to point out that it’s not specific to those who are attracted to FTMs…

Thanks very much!

-Emily



*Note: I am not implying here that these id’s are mutually exclusive- clearly they are not.

I loved your whole post, but this part really got me, because I've known this for a long time, and I've talked about it to other guys who no longer participate on either site, but you're the first person I've seen bring it up in a post. This was especially true on the other site, but I see it happening here too.

And I wonder if this was part of Linus' thought process when he started the "Some Things Don't Need To Start With 'Trans'" thread (that's not the actual title, but I can't remember the actual title).

Guys can't just be 'guys' in this community. They have to be 'trans'guys, or 'FTMs', or (and I hate hate hate this one) 'Trans' (used as a noun as in: The Trans, or A Trans), or some other signifier to denote some sort of 'woman' aspect.

Or there's talk of 'the journey' <gag>

Or there's some comparison to 'bio' men. Or 'natal' men.

And then, we always have to 'honor our past/journey/path' what the hell ever (read: don't ever forget you're a woman)

And now, even holding the door for someone is a 'trans' guy 'thing to do'.

Or caring about One's partner is now a 'dual spirity' thing heralding back to 'womanhood'.


Thank You For Your Whole Post,
Dylan

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

I agree.. I think it is a good conversation and maybe a debate to be had here, but maybe not in this thread? Seems to be getting a bit *derailed*..

Dylan, I feel what you are saying, totally :)

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

I think Dylan's post #41 is a good one to use to start a thread.

Wow. As someone who is all kinds of non technical and computer stupid the fact that Linus just did this impresses the hell outta me. :) Thanks Linus!

Bringing This Post Over From The Other Thread And Putting It In It's Rightful Space
 

Yeah, ME statements ARE great. I agree. I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, "Oh, well, I like sensitive guys, and I've been fortunate to have dated some guys who were sensitive"

Yep, no problem there.

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"?

What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'?

We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation?


Dylan

First you say this:

And then you say this:

So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

I'm wondering if you've missed part of this conversation, because some of the posts from the original thread are missing.

I don't see where, from your examples, I've made any sweeping generalizations about all women/femmes/female-IDs. In the quotes you've pulled, I'm talking to a specific group of people who made comments regarding 'two-spiritedness', 'sensitivity', 'talking about things (i.e. processing)', and a few other stereotypes and 'stereotypically feminine/womanly' notions re: emotions and so on.

The context of my posts obviously did not transfer with The Great Thread Move of SomeMondayInMay, 2010. One is missing a lot by not reading the thread from which this thread spawned.


D

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

I fell for a guy, his name is Grant. He did not come with this glass slipper, he did not come with a horse and shiny armor. He came with a kind heart, good intent and the willingness to hand over his life reigns to me. I humbly take them each day and look forward to a life of privacy fences, big black Fresian stallions and his blood on my sheets...

The fact he cooks, cleans, irons, and does laundry is a bonus, nothing to do with hoovey groovieness, not cause he has any form of female energy he does it cause well, it is what is and well cause I say so..

*s*

I'm glad you assumed correctly (you had posited a query, and I was merely answering from my me space)

<insert emoticon of your choice> (unless there's a whatever floats your boat emoticon...in which case insert that one)


And A Smiley Face Here,
Dylan

Now we are getting off even the topic of this thread....sigh...but it IS a slow Monday for me.

This I think is part of the problem for me, once person's stereotype is another person's preference. And what if my preference happens to be a stereotype that you find distasteful? You gonna pop up and blast me for stereotyping you?? If I am posting in a thread about MY preferences, why isn't my post a reflection of me instead of you?

What I saw in that other thread that Linus magically made into this thread over here is that key words triggered a response. I GET IT. I do. I know...I see it. I know that plenty of assumptions and generalizations are made about TGs, male IDs and FTMs on the whole, based on who the Hell knows what.
BUT BUT BUT

In a thread where the OP has specifically asked for preferences, it's not possible IMO to really state them without using words that would trigger some sort of response. I didn't go listing off all the things I'd really like for that reason. I KNEW what would happen and how people get about such things. And not you, actually yeah you, lol and the collective you can get all riled when really people are just talking about what they like.

Now I get (trying to come a tad closer to the topic) that there is an idea of dual spirituality or dual gender or some dual whatever people are trying to turn it into so it all makes sense in their head. I see that as their head. And maybe, that is truly their experience with the people they have encountered. I don't know. I think it is fair for ME to say that isn't MY experience. Just as I think it would be fair for you to say that isn't YOUR experience.

I also understand that as much as others complain about chronic silencing for themselves, that truly it's not possible for TGs/FTMs/TRANS/MALE IDs to have a space that is theirs where they can celebrate who they are WHATEVER that means to them individually. What seems to happen is people feel the need to squash the maleness because, well, it's all male and instead of understanding how people feel inside it becomes more about --->WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH MEN? When in fact, it has nothing at all to do with that.

The question is not "What is wrong with being a woman?" Which is how I read a lot of the things that are said in different threads. What seems to not be heard is that no one is saying there is anything wrong with being a woman. It's just not how everyone FEELS. It is not who they are. And comparing outsides has no bearing at all on insides. It's not a choice that people make. It IS how people are born. It is something that can't be quantified or justified. I think it's awful when who someone IS - is silenced regardless of their ID. The same fight seems to ensue in many of these threads, and it's always sad to me. There is a sense of an underlying threat or this huge misunderstanding that, as I'm reading posts, I feel like I'm the only one that's seeing it...
Both sides are coming from VERY different places and it seems like they just cannot, or will not accept people for their insides.

Just because someone was raised as a girl doesn't make them a girl. They don't have to like it or embrace it. In some cases it's traumatizing. Imagine being born in the wrong body. WHY is it so important for some that to be here, with us, EVERYONE has to be a woman or all happy about it? Why is it that if people are not, then the word misogyny starts popping up all over? Why do they have to be what other people think they have to be in order to belong? I just don't get it.