A request
 

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

No, Andrew. I was not speaking to your post/thread at all.

I am referring to when butches (especially if designated as female id'd butches) are automatically viewed as identifying as women.

As a side note, I was actually wondering if this post should be placed in the gender, identities, and labels forum? Linus?

Thanks.

(side note to Andrew: if you were referring to femmes specifically in that thread...it may be best for you to say that ... otherwise the word women may be construed as meaning both femmes and women identified butches. Just trying to be helpful, here)

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Hi :) I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

Hiya Dapper,

I can understand where you are coming from.. I've been on various butch/femme sites on and off again for about 10 years now and have seen a LOT of orbiting from one extreme to another.. In the late 90's, I had no idea what butch was, or femme, much less trans. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian, then as butch, then as TG butch, and now as trans.. Through all of that, I have seen a LOT of debates about pronouns, ID's, labels.. I don't know, maybe it is just a case of critical mass, there gets to be so much frustration within any ID'ing group that it kinda spills over.. Then people become PC and try to let that group know that, "hey, we get you.."

Maybe that is where we are now? Trans and TG and male identified has become the "buzz" word in the last couple of years.. Great for me, personally, being that I am a transgender person, but not so great for those that have had to take a back seat, at times, to the buzz word.. I get that you may feel that your personal ID and way of living and being is being ignored and maybe even becoming invisable..

I do get it.. I have no answers, but I will try to be respectful in my posts and my interactions with others on this site and in the "Real World". Thank you for the thread and the heads up.

In Light,
Tony

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

Hi, Nat.

I don't know if you were on the dash site/other b/f sites in the past , but one thing that I noticed, was that people would often say "female and/or women identified butches"...or something along those lines, I can't think of how most wrote it right now...there was always an acknowledgement of not all butches identifying as women (people used that same sort of language here at the Planet when it first opened, as well).

I am not speaking to the issue of male identied versus female identified butches. That is not what I am talking about.

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

The thing is, I was just throwing it out there...something that I have noticed and I took the chance of saying something, hoping that others knew what I was talking about. I am not even saying it is happening a whole lot, or is even really direct at this point...I just was concerned that it was moving in this direction and wondered if others noticed it as well.

If it is something that people want to think about, cool. If not, that is cool too. :)

Ummm....no. And let me preface this by saying I'm still in my self-proclaimed "newly hatched" stage with little experience, and also that I've had a really, really, really tough couple of days.... so it may make perfect sense to everyone else here and I'm just not understanding. But I'm trying to.... so any enlightenment would be most appreciated.

Here's where I get hung up. I get that female is sex/anatomical. I get that woman is gender...which is more of an internalized perception of who I am.

I get that there are butches who claim male gender or ID.

Where I'm stuck is trying to wrap my head around how someone can be a female-ID'ed butch and not view themselves as a woman.

For the record, I adore a magnificent butch woman...so I'm not slinging off at anyone. I'm just confused as all get out...

just another big-mouthed butch woman speaking up
 

It's not nice. It's not necessary to demean anyone.

It's difficult to follow how gender IDs morph and the individual meanings given these identifications. I can't keep up either, so I try to be respectful of all and never assume. That's all we can do.

I just wanted to repeat this because I believe Dapper's recent perceptions may have stemmed from other discussions where the attempt has been made to give butch women more visibility and voice. Other than that, I truly have not seen any shift toward the assumption that butch = woman. Also, femme invisibility is rarely given the discussion it deserves, and I think your point here is valid. Thanks for putting it in this context.


I bussed the tables at the last supper, so I feel your confusion with the changes you see here online.

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.

So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

I may be asking JustJo's question slightly differently: What is it, for a female-identified butch, that is uncomfortable/inappropriate about being called a woman? In other words, what does "woman" MEAN that you do not wish to be identified with/as?

This is not meant to be snarky or to put a microscope on anyone. I just wonder if the definition of "woman" gets so stereotyped and rigid that even those who are female can't identify with it. And not just butches. There are femmes who do not identify with the word either.

Perhaps I will start yet another thread: What does WOMAN mean?

Full disclosure: For me, having female-identified people reject the identity of woman feels like a loss. And I mean that in a political/historical/emotional/social/cultural context.

Heart

Hi, BullDog. I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts.

I agree that the visibility of butches who identify as women is important and would also say that the visibility of butch women is not something that was supported in the past.

P.S. Sorry this is so delayed...I am at work and my computer is being funky!

Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat.

I have discussed with other butches in discussions both here and the former site about female identified butch. To me that is phrase that is used online, but for me personally doesn't hold a lot of meaning. I don't tend to use it much anymore. It also seems to be used as the counterpart to male identified butch and this so-called war we are all engaged in.

I also don't think that saying female/woman identified butch is very meaningful either. There are lots of butches who say yes I am female but don't see themselves as female identified or butch woman. Some butches say butch with no qualifiers is their gender, others say third gender, other gender, pan gender and still see themselves as female. The list goes on.

p.s. Heart I would love to see your thread on Woman. :)

Kobi..........can you make your type size bigger........I need a magnifying glass to read your posts..........I'm old....laughin.....

Here is what I have learned:

Some people see Butch as their gender in the same way that some people see Femme as their gender.

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

this thread is very useful to me, since I have in the past used the word him/her and butch/femme wrongly, I dont know everything about them.

No worries, Ruthie. :)

Amen AtLast! Woman is not a dirty word.

I think what is causing the recent consternation (and it isn't just one particular person judging by the responses and thanks) is butch women speaking up and people are uncomfortable seeing butch and woman in the same sentence without a bunch of qualifiers a few times and then needing to say, no, no, not me. Really? I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

interesting
 

I find this subject very interesting, of course. It hits really close to home for me.

I havent been around this online community, that has been busy being built into what it is, for many years. When I started coming to these sites I started figuring out what kind of labels I would use to describe myself, especially since that is one of the very first things it was demanded that I do. I gotta tell you that it took me a few days to register the first time; I didnt have any idea what i identified as, I just knew that some things I definitely had an aversion to saying about myself.

When reading here I admit to still being confused about gender and sex and what is PC. I am butch. I am a big manly butch woman. I take pride in being a woman. I dont want to be a man. I almost choke when i have to fill out a form and say that I am female. I don't feel female.

As I am reading, I realize that the way I think of butch is opposite to what I see is others definition of butch.
To me my gender is a woman. My sex is a butch. I am a butch woman, not a female woman.

OK.

I said all of the above to show that with best intentions and with everything that I feel is right I may inadvertently say the wrong thing to someone - May? Hell, I have, surely.

This to me is as simple as the live and let live philosophy that we should all adhere to. A newbie in the midst may say all kind of things that they have never considered and have never been exposed to. These folks should be educated about the fact that some of the members are touchy about things and feel strongly about pronouns. That said, we can all tell by now, thru the reading of many posts and statements, whether someone is trying to hurt or is just saying their truths. Some of us just dont have the time or the brain function to take notes or remember exactly who wants what.

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

We each live. We each learn. We each fuck-up, often, thats why we learn.
I wish for the benefit of the doubt.
I dont want to say that we should all do any one thing. I dont want to suggest that we all shouldnt have to put the disclaimers in each post.
I do wish we would all just live and let live.

And. in closing, let me add the disclaimer that i know i didnt say this as eloquently and as directly as i envisioned in my head, that means i probably stepped on some toes in my attempt to tread lightly on an issue that is sensitive to many. I apologize in advance for anything hurtful or insensitive that i may have said while describing my take on this matter.
hmmm...
I think that covers it.

Sincerely,
rlin

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I think I used to use the phrase female/woman identified in a similar way that Metro says. I just don't find it useful anymore because it leaves people out and also may assume more commonalities than are actually there.

Is there Lesbian-bashing going on somewhere?