Respect of Femme Sensabilities
 

This title worried me... i dont know what else to name it except for this...
i am posting this here instead of the butch or trans zone because i would like to hear what a femme thinks of this also...
i am in no way implying that the femme persuasion is weak...

i saw this post from the fierce Lady Snow...
this was said after someone... really off the cuff..... made a remark about balls... just a slang remark... not sexual...

it made me think of the times when i toss out crude remarks in front of folks that just dont wanna hear them...

my mom taught me to respect a lady... let me state that i see a femme as a lady... someone maybe a bit more refined than myself...

i thought when seeing this of how it is ok here... sometimes... to make sexual remarks in certain contexts... we tend to be a very sexual community i think... (thank goddess!)...
however... there are the times like this when we will try to show comradeship with a crude remark...

might as well scratch our asses and spit...
i wouldnt say to a femme 'hey... nice tits'... i wouldnt elbow her and wink when i make a callous comment...
thats just me...
this example made me think of the fact that some of what makes this unacceptable is the fact that we dont really know the person we are saying it to...
(i havent talked to Ms Snow... i have read lots of her words and feel a bit of familiarity to her... i think from seeing her posts that i surely would never talk to her like she was one of the guys...)
but the fact that we can feel like we sorta know someone from reading there thoughts might promote this kind of familiarity... just a thought

what i wanted to put out there was a hint to the 'butch' side of the community to show a little gentility... i would like to see the stereotype of us being crude to go away...
we can still be crude... just lets remember there is a time and a place for it...

ok folks... fire away... i got my protective armor on...
(would that have been crude if i had stated that i was wearing protection?)

with all good intentions,
rlin

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To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

The other person came in to the thread, contributed, then agreed with her by using the term again in the same fashion she did. He was then called-out on it (by Snow) and ugliness ensued.

My inclination at this point is to stick to the fluff threads where I witness more authentic acts of kindness among members. My personal opinion is that the lack of progress or solidarity in some of these other, more controversial threads is not because the issues are too great to solve or achieve consensus on...but that the personalities are getting in the way.

Good luck...

i probably didnt say it loud enough in my opener that i am not calling someone out... i do this myself... in no way am i referencing what (whoever... i forgot who it was) was saying.... i am making a comment on the response that was given... whoever said the balls remark was way above board with their answer to this quote...
no... this isnt a call out... this is an attempt by me to find out if i am correct in assuming this falls under the heading that my mamma taught me... to respect women...
and to see if maybe us butch types would stop doing this would we receive a little more respect ourselves...

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

Agreed...from a personal perspective.

Our methods of communication...the words we choose to use...really demonstrate online so much because online, that's all we have to present who we are.

Have a great day!

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

see your next comment, buddy. in some respects, I agree; in others, it is a two way street, ya know?
the examples given above, by Oneida and yourself indicate a double standard ... however, is it possible that Snowy's comment was a general "balls" and the other comment more directed, and personal? I'm going by memory, so don't jump my balls :rofl: if this is not so, please. I am really trying to understand and not further discontent, but to foster mutuality and compassion for one another ...
well, that says it all, doesn't it.

I am new to online communities. I find that having butch brothers here is intoxicating ... literally. And, in being one of the guys again (it's been a long time for me ... long story and a topic jumper), I slipped into persona, actually forgetting that I am in "mixed" company. I am a joker, as you know rlin, and like to laugh and have fun ... most people do crack up with my comments in rl ... I said something that I thought was in keeping with the THREAD and believed innocuous shortly after first joining this site .. there was no malfeasance intended. what I learned from the backlash is that if one does not KNOW or have an already established relationship with the poster, one must tread lightly ... I know that this may be a "duh" for some of you, but it was a reflective moment for me. I think offense occurs when there is not "relationship" established, and therefore takes on the cloak of double-standard. Don't know if this makes sense or no...

Related, but off topic: It is also difficult to post when you are deemed new, and therefore an "outsider" who needs to be (slowly) accepted before getting a response to your posting. These are reflective lessons for me ... I appreciate and do not resent them. However, I do have difficulty with some of the clique behavior, and a few of the threads which FEEL as though anyone outside of a specific group who posts there is unwanted. One can go back and read pages and see that the same people are primarily the only people who post. So, there is another process which contributes to the feeling or sense of being an "outsider." Audre Lorde, my sister, what would you say to this? Oh boy! too much java. Sorry to go on!

Hi everybody!!!

Let's talk about respect and priviledge!!!

I see sexual undertones thrown around this space all the time. I have no problem with it until I see a single butch/guy or femme throwing those remarks towards way of people who are partnered. No offense to any one person, but I see it happen all the time. It can be very subtle or it can be blunt, either way it is rude and disrespectful.

Grant

Wait...

Snow's a lady?

Insert smiley face here

Rlin, would you have started this thread if a butch had been talking to another butch?

I kinda feel like this is one of those 'reascue the delicate femmes 'cuz they're delicate creatures', and honestly, I've kinda had it lately with the placating to femmes

I just think femmes are quite capable of 'rescuing' themselves

Color Me Jaded,
Dylan...my armor is at the shiners this week

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this. I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.

Interesting idea rlin, thank you :rrose:

I can't speak for femmes in general of course, but I will say that - for myself - I simply respond better to the conversation if it isn't crude.

I very rarely cuss (as in, I have to be either incredibly angry or drop a frozen 5 lb. roast on my toe). I also tend to step back from anger, demeaning or belittling behavior, or significant flirting. The flirting is a relatively new one on the list for me. Like waxnrope, I'm still fairly new to this online community thing...and didn't realize that some people take online flirting seriously, while for others it's a game. Kind of a duh moment for me...

I also appreciate what weatherboi said about the difference between single and partnered people. I always respect partnerships, and try to acknowledge them...if I friend one member, I try to friend the other as well. And, I appreciate it when others do the same.

Just to be clear, I'm not a shrinking violet...I bartended for years, and have been married to two sailors. I know the words...and, in a pinch, could probably outcuss most people...I just prefer not to.

funny, this is what the femmes are saying about the butches on the other thread! :rofl: oh! the irony!!!!! hahahahahaha

hi waxnrope,

on the outside i see where you think it may be proper to agree but realize you and Sam walked up into a space where this was stated in post #4 by Snow.

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...


also here is my issue with your post if we all want to be transparent. your inappropriate play on words. here is what i mean...

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying

Snow never implied anything about someone handlingher arse....what she said was she didnt want to get her ass handed to her. total differnece in your play on words and what she meant. it is the exact same thing Sam did as well.

I am wondering if it was a butch or trans person saying this would you approach it in that manner?? cause i find your play on words offensive and gross.

Grant

waxnrope i apologize in advance if you take me as harsh but i do see a double standard but it isnt in what Snow did or said...it is in all the reactions surrounding her handling of Sam.

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

With re to the handling arse statement, I can see that, in pointing this out, that it is as you say, gross. My apologies to Lady Snow ... my humor was out of line. I have no difficulties with apologies. Just so you know. Nor do I have a problem with your corrective comment. The other issues, I'll need to think about (I'm in a hurry to leave, but wish to make my apology about that statement clear)

this is not all that I got from your thread, Lady Snow. I have sent you messages on your rep that indicate this. the flower was a joke and I did not/do not find it something offensive, but used it as a bit of irony, a turn of what you have stated about yourself. I do not know if I can explain it better. It was NOT intended to hurt you or make you angry. To the contrary, it was to make you shake your head and grin. Sorry that it did not do that and you are frustrated about it. As you said in your post, it is intention, and you apparently saw mal intent where none was intended.

Despite you apparently good intention, ironically threads like these create an image in peeps heads that butches are all spit and ball scratching and need to be told how to behave in front of "the ladies" and femmes need a butch to speak up for them.

Seriously I already know how to interact with folks, femme, butch or transpeople, het people... any people. Shit I've never even read the TOS on sites because at this point in life hopefully we know where the hell the lines are (I did read the TOS here coming on as a mod of course).

*doesn't go around woot-wooting at womens asses, or head butting my buddies while burping the alphabet real life either*
Metro

MODERATING:

I can see this thread is heading in the direction I was afraid it would head.

I am about to close down this thread as it has turned out to be a personal vendetta, just like I saw it form the get go.


People, if you have personal issues to iron out, please do so PRIVATELY, do not use threads to get throw in those jabs and think it is going to go under the radar, It isn't!

It doesn't seem right to me that it is ok for a femme to say this but not a butch. I think we should take gender id out of the mix and just say that civil conversation seems to be on the wane in many places, not just here. I would like to see a rise in civiility and politeness and general respect for another person when online or face to face. We have lost that, and we lost it years ago.

I'm not placing blame on any person, group or generation. We have lost the art of conversation and debate. Conversation and debate were once considered arts. Now its just a free for all under the guise of freedom or individuality or personal rights or whatever you want to frame it as. I believe that trash talk, cursing etc in a public forum is not a right or appropriate. If you have to curse or scream to get your point across then people are going to tune you out.

Melissa

I don't like when people assume things about decorum and how language should be used. I happen to have an extensive vocabulary, sometimes though I opt for throwing in a FUCK here and there. I assure you, it does not stump conversation and frankly sometimes a good fuck here and there and a god damn it can get the point across, cause when you try to be all nicey nice some ass clown is still going to push your fucking boundaries.

Oh

And yes I kiss my boyfriend, mother, father with this mouth

Hey, waxnrope.

I know nothing about Snow and Sam's history, but my guess is that they have one.

I am also guessing that her response is based on that history. So, for all I know, it could be a very appropriate response. Or, it could not make any sense to me. I don't know.

From my vantage point this thread was started by rlin (correct me if I am wrong, rlin), b/c she/he/hy assumed that there was no connection and no history.

My point is, the above statement by Snow tells me that I don't know jack shit what the subtext is from that interaction.

I am wondering if maybe you are approaching this from the assumption that there is no history here?

As a side note, I really think it is pretty funky to take a post from one thread and start a new thread on it (without permission). Especially when it is about someone. I know you are new here, rlin (and I absolutely believe you when you say you have good intentions), but I just wanted to say this in general.

wouldn't it have been easier (on all concerned) to censure sam privately, as the rest of us had no clue what was going on? i read him as using the phrase in the context snow had originally posted it. forum would be easier to wade through if private beefs stayed private.

Yeah, but the entertainment value for the rest of us would plunge.

:slapfight:

There is NO History between Snow and I. Can you get off the subject now?




Way too many opinions flashing around, that has nothing to do with this thread.

on topic now
 

good manners never go out of style. or so my grandma always told me.

once we've established personal friendships with people, we learn what their tolerances are for ribald humor and profanity and what kind of porn they like. until we've established a personal relationship with someone, we should show the respect we'd like to have shown us upon initial contact.

i don't like the *wink-wink, nudge-nudge* stuff in my day to day life. the friends i have do not engage in that behavior with me. i swear like a sailor and know when to curb it...in polite company. i do have decent manners and exercise them regularly.

i don't, however, think that femmes, females, women are entitled to *more* respect than anyone else. we all should have a sense of decency and propriety that we operate under. vulgarity is just plain unattractive.

this may even make sense outside my head.

Me giving my femme perspective
 

Once again

Snow is quite fucking happy with the way she handled her situation with Sam. If ya don't like the way I use profanity, I don't know what to tell ya.. *I* as a femme am not asking anything be cleaned up on my delicate account. I am comfortable for asking someone not to take a friendly tone when we aren't tight like that cause frankly that is how this whole fucking thread came about.

So the OP's intent is for femme's to be talked to in a more delicate manner, *I* for one don't need that, I am not going to wilt nor run to the altar kneel and say 33 hail mary's.

Not how *I* roll

*crosses 'pedestal upon which delicate femme may be displayed' off list of possible birthday gifts for Snow*

I Kind of Doubt Honesty in Answering
 

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

I have experienced and this is me talking for ME..

I have experienced that when I choose to be vulgar, sexually open open, I get the shaking of the head in disapproval due to be being feminine. The ol' ladies don't talk that way shit.

It's like that damn Madonna complex....

I dont know if it makes me a delicate flower..

( I really dont see myself as one, but opinions are like sets of skin. We all have one)


I curse sometimes. But Id rather not be hanging out in an environment where every other word that comes out of someones mouth is a F*cken mother F*cker, or worse.
And I dont really care whos mouth its comming out of. A femmes, a butchs, or paphigleos for that matter.

It doesnt offend delicate sensibilities. I just feel akward and out of place in such a conversation.

I get in places in my life when I feel less articulate and the cussing increases. That usually passes when I figure out what issue Im struggling with at the time. It can take a week or 2 for me to sort it all out.

I believe I treat people with respect and dignity. I would like to be treated similarly. And I dont feel that its different across the butch femme spectrum.

That being said- there is a bit of The Dance, of being treated with extra courtesy specifically because I am a lady, that does thrill me.

I will freely admit it. I love it. If those are silly old antiquated rules, Im ok with that. If that makes me a delicate flower, well, then fine. Ill be a an Orange Poppy, my home states flower then.


I dont believe such a desire to be treated with a degree of decorum and respect makes me any more or less awesome. Nor does the lack of such desire for that treatment make anyone more or less awesome. We just roll different ways.

I don't appreciate vulgarity or profanity, period—it doesn't matter what their gender is, or how they identify. However I learned long ago that my mouth is the only mouth I can (hopefully,) control.

You know, honestly, I don't care who cusses and makes sexual comments.. We are all human and all over 18 (I assume). I doubt very much if some femme is going to read something a butch or transguy says and faint dead away from shock, falling upon her fainting couch to be saved by a fan and a sniff of smelling salts.. Nor will a butch implode into a shocked shell if a femme says "fuck"..

I *get* the idea that some folks feel the need to act a certain way in front of other people and groups.. I don't get why there needs to be a thread(s) created to teach or couch folks on how to act in "polite" company.

It has been said before, manners and respect are just that.. Using your head and gut to know when a topic or even the TONE of a topic isn't where you'd start flirting or throwing around curse words for no good reason (diffrent from using curse words for impact or to add flaver to a heated post), is something that is learned as you grow up and are socialized as a person.. If someone hasn't learned when to keep thier mouth shut or when and where something is uncalled for, then by god, let them learn here.

The creation of ethical/moral threads irks me. I have my own personal morals and ethics, as we all do.. I don't handle femmes with kid gloves just because they are femmes. God knows, there are some femmes on here that scare me shitless! In a good way, mostly, lol. Do I tangle with them? No, I don't.. There are also some femmes that are softer and I treat them as such..

That being said, the same goes for Butches, Transgender peoples, Lesbains, and Queers.. Hell.. It goes for the whole human race, as far as I'm concerned. People are people.. Some people like to scream and shout, even when they aren't really angry, some people never raise thier voice at all, even when they want to do murder..

My point is, I try to use my best judgement in my interactions with the rest of humanity.. If I cross a line, I own it and try to correct it. If someone steps on my toes, I let them know, or don't, depending on if that person really matters to me in the long run.

That's all I got.. For the record, I don't own kid gloves, but I do own a pair of vampire gloves.. So usually, I just keep them off ;)

-Tony

ABC has a show called What Would You Do, which is premised in the research of social psychology and which tests people's real world biases like racism and sexism. Maybe you've seen it. Often if you ask someone whether they'd help a woman in distress (i.e., being publicly abused by her boyfriend) no matter who she is, most people will tell you that they would. But the reality is that in scenarios where the woman is demurely dressed, some people do help, and in scenarios where the woman is more provocatively dressed, nearly no one offers to help. It's in their bias.

Same is true in scenarios where people witness white boys committing an act of vandalism (few people intervene) as opposed to when they witness black kids committing an act of vandalism (LOTS of folks call 911). Still, they *say* that it didn't matter whether the boys were black or white, they would have done the same thing. But in reality, people didn't actually do the same thing.

So when people tell me that they make no judgment between a male or masculine person who swears or uses vulgarity and a feminine person who does, when our culture tells us that feminine people are supposed to behave demurely and to be good, I disagree. I think that our true biases are other. In spite of what we think we feel, I just don't buy what we're saying we feel.

Before (and if) this thread gets shut down, I wanted to thank the OP because the opening post reminded me of some situations I found myself in several years ago.

There was a certain group of people I would hang out with at times - usually go to the bars with and sometimes go to parties with. Except for one person who actually is a member here, these were all lesbians (at least that's my memory) - some of whom appeared butch but didn't seem to claim it necessarily and were not part of the community.

A few (most) of this group didn't seem to know what a femme was. To me, when I was around these people, I felt like I was in mixed company, but they didn't see our interactions through the same lens. They would ask me why I was wearing a dress at a party, and I remember trying to imagine what in my closet they thought would qualify as appropriate with them. It seemed like crudity was a goal at times with this group, though as individuals they were quite nice.

Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but as a femme it has in the past been awkward to me when I'm around people who think all lesbians are the same and that we should all act like fratboys and be comfy with that. I'm just not that kind of person. I remember asking the other person who's a member of the community, "Do you think they realize they are in mixed company??" I don't think this group understood butch or trans identities any better than femmes though.

I don't know, I'm not usually very prudish, but I definitely felt like a flower (stuck in a beer can) a few times with that crowd. Most of the butches I know have more decorum than I do, so at the time I thought maybe it's because they came from this worldview where all lesbians were expected to be comfortable in that kind of environment, whereas the femme/butch world allows for more difference?

Or it may have just been that little group of people. (Most likely that's the case). Have any other femmes run into this in the lesbian (non-femmebutch) mainstream?

PS. I use profane language and talk about sex probably daily. I'm trying to think what the difference was. Like, I really don't wanna be privy to locker room talk unless its femme locker room talk.

when i put this thread out here i was seriously most interested in how the fact that we knew each other vicariously thru the forum might cause us to use over-familiarity when addressing folks around here...
but... i was also obviously thinking of how [we] tend to posture when we want to connect...
i am happy to see that i have all kindsa opinions to sift thru and learn from... that is the point of this post... so that i can learn... that is why i come to this forum... to learn...

i used a quote from a public forum using very little background from the conversation it came from... i did this because i found these words as a stand-alone to be compelling... i wanted to discuss this phenomena

i want to publicly apologize to Lady Snow for opening her up to conversation... i can plead the fact that i am :new: but... in actuality i am really more obviously a dumbass... i honestly didnt even consider the fact that folks would take this anywhere other than what i spoke of in my opener... i thought we would speak of language...

i sincerely apologize to you Ma'am... if you can think of a way that i can make this palatable for you... i will give it my damndest to do so...


rlin

Well, Corkey, I utilized the term "we," in order to show solidarity and in an attempt not to "other" my listener. I knew that whether I did that or not wouldn't matter, because more often than not, and quite unfortunately, people tend to personalize the opinions of others, as you appear to have done here.

See, I use profanity quite often. Perhaps it's a matter of class conditioning and that I've never made the attempt to rewire my language so that others could feel more comfortable or accept my language as less-offensive.

As a result, and like Snow, I've been told, that I should use more appropriate language for a "lady" more times than I can count. In nearly every relationship that I've been in, when my then-partner wished to hurt me, I was told I was "trashy," not that it hurt. Corkey, I'm not trashy, but my mother was born of poor and not-even-working class people.

Subsequently, I've witnessed how much more free men and masculine people are to use profane terms and expressions. Further, if a masculine person does not hold to certain Emily Post-like protocols, well, s/he/hy's just being a guy. But far be it for a woman to let fly a "good goddamn" on a Sunday morning, brother. My opinion is that folks really don't feel the same about it. And I think there is a perfectly patriarchal, socially-conditioned reason for it.

Which means it isn't personal. Not one bit.