Passing - Is it a Privilege?
 

I began delving into passing privilege in the (very interesting and intriguing) thread about femme privilege but I think it warrants its own discussion - available to everybody in the community - because there are multiple forms of passing (or not passing) in this community.

This excerpt is from an article regarding mostly transwomen (from annelawrence.com), but I thought a lot of what was said would be relevant in a broader context as well. I really like how much of this is worded, because I think it hits on several important key points regarding the privilege of passing, and also a few points regarding the pain/disadvantages of passing.

*As an aside - where are the transwomen? Do we have transfemmes or other transwomen among us here? If not, I hope they discover us at some point and that they feel welcome here.*

I feel like some of the stuff said about transwomen in the above quote applies also to femmes - at least to some extent. We don't talk toooo much about femme hierarchy, but I think there is some hierarchy associated with passing for straight - or for the amount of surprise and disbelief a femme gets when she imparts she is a lesbian and how that's both frustrating, disheartening and, at least for some femmes, also complimentary.

There's a lot here. I'm coming from a femme perspective at the moment, but I'm guessing there are a lot of perspectives here for people in this community who either pass or don't pass - and it could relate to any number of circumstances - passing or not passing for straight, lesbian, butch, femme, woman, man, cisgender, a certain race, nationality, ethinicity, religion, age, class, income-level, education level, etc.

Although these are various, I think perspectives on any of them from people who do or do not pass would or could be a really meaty and interesting discussion. Also, I would love other perspectives from books or articles or interviews or blog posts or whatever it is that speaks to you regarding passing.

My main question is - is it really a privilege? I don't have that answer for myself right now, (or, more accurately, I find myself alternating between "yes" and "no" and "maybe so") but I am very interested in getting a better and broader understanding.

Cross-Post - more about the disadvantages of passing
 

I'm cross-posting this, because it probably belongs more in this thread than in the femme privilege thread, though the two issues (passing and femme privilege) overlap. I hope that's alright!

I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down:

This is just one example of how passing is a mixed bag. The podcast did interview one female cop and one man who said he is effeminate and that it's always been assumed he was gay. The majority of the officers were masculine men who spent years in the closet, and people assumed they were straight based on their gender presentations. Although there are definitely differences between passing for a straight cisgender man and passing for a straight cisgender woman, I still think this is one of many examples illustrating the mixed bag of passing for straight.

Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman.

Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.

Drive by thought...

privilege can exist/does exist whether one chooses to believe it is or isn't for themselves.

Is passing a privilege? depends on the context. Since my context tends to take shape from a more worldly/cosmopolitan/not-always-in-a-queer-bubble perspective, I would say, absolutely passing is a privilege, whether I want it to be or not. I like how you're bringing up a variety of intersections around the word privilege.

Much luck with this thread.

-Chris

Yay! I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts!

Chris -

Thank you so much for your input! I've beena arguing with myself on this for the last few days, and I definitely see your point.

A note about the word "Passing" and its problematic use with transfolks -

Although it does appear (from the article I quoted) that some transfolks are fine with using the word "passing" to describe the experience of being interpreted as the gender one is, I can imagine for others that using the term "passing" in this way may seem self-negating.

I met a wonderful and funny transwoman years ago at a Queer Conference down at UT Austin. She said somebody asked her once about how she felt about not passing. She said she asked that person, "Not passing as what?? I look just like a transwoman." Still, many transfolks want to be interpreted as a "man" or a "woman" without the qualifier of "trans." I'm not sure "passing" is the most accurate word for that, and I don't want to impose it on anybody who feels uncomfortable with applying that word to theirself. (<--I know this use of the word "their" is extremely awkward, but I'm experimenting with the singular, gender-neutral use of the word "they" as it's the most commonly used gender-neutral use to spring naturally from the English language (I think)).

If you feel like there are privilege differences between being seen and understood as the gender you are, and *not* being seen and understood as the gender you are, please don't hesitate to contribute to this thread using whatever language suits you best.

Though I am not trans and cannot speak from a trans perspective, I would imagine trans people who are interpreted 24/7 as their gender may run into more trouble at airports, at gyms, in deciding when (and if?) to come out with potential new relationships, when applying for jobs where anxieties may arise about whether your references will use your correct pronoun/name, in the event of arrest, in the event of medical emergency, and also in the event of one's death if the news gets a hold of the story and spins it in a transphobic way. I can also imagine a transperson with this experience would be privy to transphobic commentary from cisgender folks who have no clue, and that this would be insidious and damaging in its unique way.

These are just some of the things I can imagine *might* be issues for transfolks who are interpreted as cisgender, but like I said, I'm not trans (in that sense) and I cannot fully know what it's like to either pass or not pass as the gender I actually feel that I am. (In fact, I never feel as though I pass as the gender I am because I am bigender).

When I "pass" for straight or even cisgender, it is a case of passing as something I am not. In this way, "passing" is a very different thing for me than the "passing" described in the quote from the perspective of a transwoman.

Thanks Nat. I was going to post in the other thread since Medusa included feminine id'd peeps but it's in the femme zone - I can't figure out who the hell can post what where so - I like it when it's spelled out for me. lol

I pass as straight. That affords me the luxury afforded to all other straight looking white women in this society. I am not discriminated for being gay - unless I am somehow outed or I out myself. People like me who NEVER would if they knew ahead of time - then when they find out - too late - they like me. As a woman I have been passed over for a promotion for specifically that reason being a woman. It happened once and I left the company.

My ex and I both passed. Although people did say they were more likely to tell she was gay. Unless she was with me. lol. So we could hold hands in public and people would actually ask if we were sisters. She was Latina and brown?? We would say "Yep. We're twins!" I think it is because we were about the same size? lol. I have no idea. But it was assumed that we were not gay, just close like that. Even straight women, close friends & family will hold hands and lock arms when they are walking around. I've seen it. I never noticed any stares or backlash.

I could wrap myself in rainbow ribbons, be kissing a girl at pride and someone is likely to say "Oh look, an ally!"

Last year I went to NYC with a masculine looking butch. All morning people were staring at me. Of course, I thought it was because I looked fat. UNTIL someone yelled out to her something like "what up homie?" kind of snickering, trying to start shit. THEN I realized that the reason everyone had been staring at me all day is because they were now assuming I was gay. O-M-G The realization that everyone knew was just shocking to me. All of a sudden I didn't feel safe anymore. I was scared. She just laughed and said that was how it was for her every day of her life. YIKES.

I didn't love it. I felt like people were judging me in a way that they didn't before. I now HAD to hold onto her because we looked more formidable together and I felt like more of a target even 5 feet from her. By the end of the day I was ok, after I realized people weren't lining up to punch me in the face.

Where I live is very safe. I like going out with butches here and being seen as gay. I know where I am. I am sure nothing will happen. No one looks at you "like that." But a butch and I have to hold hands in order for me to be actually seen as gay. Because it's not uncommon to see butches here with lots of people so just walking next to each other doesn't work.

The only time that invisibility really sucks for me is when I'm trying to find someone to date. I am out at work. I am brave where I'm safe. I honestly don't know how I would deal with being stared at every day all the time. I guess I won't until I'm tested. I hate snow. HATE IT. I hate driving in it, looking at it, shoveling it....but I know I'm safe here and can be gay and do things like hug, kiss, hold hands, skip up and down the street with anyone I want- whatever - and it's ok, appreciated even.

Everywhere isn't like that. I have far more respect for those who live very queer looking lives in places that are unfriendly and in some cases hostile. It takes more guts then I realized. They are the ones who make life safer for me (and I think all of us) everyday in a meaningful way just by going to the grocery store and being visible.

Sometimes I am read as female and sometimes male. I never know until I'm referred to as he or she. We recently sold a house. The real estate agent always referred to me as he (by the way, I never "correct" people on the use of pronouns.) Anyway, the agent, who is male, always referred to me as he. What we noticed though is that he spoke to Melissa in a different tone and manner than he talked to me.

Melissa said for the first time she realized how straight men address women differently than men. He was condescending to her but addressed me as a "buddy." At one point he called her "honey." Was he more sexist than other men? We're not sure. Do many straight men use a different tone of voice and approach to men rather than women? I don't know if I would call how he addressed me as "straight privilege" but I feel like we got to peak behind the curtain of how straight men address each other vs how they talk to women.

Rufus

I absolutely anticipate that once the T I am on changes my body significantly, I will pass and experience privilege. When I think about it I feel anxiety. I told my therapist that, and she said I should call people on it when they are sexist toward women and homophobic, etc. But I should at least enjoy the privilege a little. After all, most of my life I have been perceived and treated by people as a girl/woman, a lesbian, and a gender oddity. The gender oddity part I experienced as a little kid, not just since I started wearing mens clothing and cut my hair as an adult (although I definitely experience that these days too). So, should I enjoy the privilege? I don't think I will be able to, because it just seems so fucking unfair to me. But maybe I will like it, I just don't know how that will feel when it comes. If I do end up enjoying the different way I am treated, would that make me an asshole? *shakes head*

On the other hand, I really want to be out as a transguy, for political reasons. I know that gay rights in America would be greatly advanced if every gay man and woman/lesbian came out to their family/friends, etc. When people hide in the closet, they are in some way contributing to the homophobia of our society. There is shame in hiding. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of people who's well-being and lives would be at stake if they came out, so I don't really judge or fault such people for staying in the closet. Coming out is tough, and no one should be pressured to do so. You have to be ready yourself. But the fact remains, that if more people did come out, that would be a big blow to the homophobic bigots. If people know someone who is gay or lesbian, they are less likely to stay bigoted. Not saying there is a guarantee but the likely hood is significantly reduced. I realize that some of what I am saying is controversial. I know that some people will disagree with me. That's fine.

But I think it works the same way in some degree with transfolk. It is great to be treated as the gender that you feel you are inside. It is a liberating feeling. Yet, I myself want to be out as a transguy, to confront transphobia head-on. I think that if more of us weren't stealth, it would further our cause for equal rights. Yeah, I said it. We should be out if we want the same rights as cisgendered people. That means giving up privilege. I plan to do that in ways that count the most. With friends, (family already knows) and with anyone who I encounter in the world who is homophobic/transphobic. If I am able to work again, I might or might not out myself during the interview, but once I am settled into a job I won't make it a secret. This is a political choice. I make it on behalf of all my gay/lesbian/trangendered/queer brothers and sisters. Fuck privilege. I am out and proud.

Wow, ok, so I have a number of issues with this post, so I'd like to ask some questions and make further comments. I want to feel through this in a pragmatic way if I can. See, without you realizing it, my first thoughts were "i'm feeling judged" when that may not be your intent at all. So, let's work through this?

I feel your passion, and I certainly hope you will continue to navigate your live and your transition around the intersections of privilege that you will experience. But you are touching on some points that are .... not unique to the trans community but certainly are highlighted boldly in trans* interactions with one another. I experience a butt-load of situations back home where a good portion of trans folks want to be visible ("out and proud"), some of us want to be/are/appear straight, some us are decidedly stealth 100% and some of us are not.

I fall in the category of, stealth a lot of time, until I'm not. You can bet a lot of my reasons is tied up around my personal safety, and then there's times where I feel I don't have to/should have to explain myself.... until I do.

Prime example (and here's where I'll show my ass to you)... I laugh at the idea of carrying "transition" papers when I'm travelling. Now, for reference, you should know (and I hope you remember meeting me atomic? it was at a bash in oakland in 2008)... Anyway, assuming you know me, what you may/may not know is: I have "F" on my passport. Due to a complicated mess around id's and nationalities and surgical requirements and so on and so forth, I'll be travelling with "F" on my passport for, a few years more at least. I've travelled to/through approximately 6 different country borders between US/Canada and parts of Europe. I've (naturally) experienced secondary screenings various times entering into the United States (suspected racial profiling).

Not once was my gender questioned, and as such based on my personal opinion/experiences, it seems laughable to me that someone carries a "I'm a TG person, and here's a doctor's diagnosis to prove it" letter in their back pocket. (that's my being at my grossest judgeyness, I'll own that).

My point is: I don't carry a letter to explain myself, because I don't feel I have to. If I'm questioned by customs or border patrol, they will have to ask me directly and I will give them a direct answer. I don't turn green or get scared at the idea of pat downs (like I was in the UK -- btw, those guys are serious about security over there. I was shocked to see police with machine guns at the airport).

Carrying a letter feels.... not too visible per se. maybe a little bit of a "look at me, I'm an attention whore" (again, I'm totally owning my biase/judging on this).

Is it because I'm stealth? Yes and no. I'd like to think that I have the strength/courage/determination to be able to look at someone straight in the face if ever asked and state who/what I am. But, until then, I don't believe in just volunteering my private information.

That to me isn't about shaming but about personal determination without prejudice...

Cheers,

i have a facebook friend, an ex of a good friend of mine and a nice guy. Anyway, he is on his honeymoon, and he posted recently that he and his new wife were getting ready to go out clubbing.

It struck me like a brick. They can go to any club they want. When they go to another country, they don't have to go to a gay resort in order to be together.

It's not about this guy. i am not begrudging him any pleasure in life.

But that obvious passing privilege just hit me recently.

My experiences are much the same.... amazing, isn't it? Interesting, as I realize that I like this dichotomy in my life (even though it can be difficult at times) because it is in sync with my internalization of female masculinity and keeps me aware of just how far we have to go! Serves as motivation. This probably is so because I am just someone that is ever involved in LGBTIQ politics as well as women's rights. Is different for everyone, I would think.

Yes. There is great privilege in passing.

Of course, there is. Do I think it can have it's down sides? Of course. We all want to be seen for who we are and not feel ashamed about who we are. Unfortunately, we don't live in that society. We live in a kyriarchal (sp?) society where This trumps That.

I'm beginning to experience some aspects of straight, male privilege (it's a tight walk), and I notice a lot of the places that, over the last 40 years:

conversations go more smoothly.

I'm taken more seriously.

people are nicer.

people don't stare.

I don't set off any radars.

people don't grab their kids.

people don't point at me.

kids don't stare and point and ask questions while their parents grab them and hold them closer.

people don't follow me through stores

salespeople don't stare at me in stores

people don't look at me then quickly look at my girlfriend

people don't immediately 'look for my chest' to determine my gender

NO ONE stares at me in the bathroom and gasps

I'm sure getting a job is going to be easy as pie.

I'm sure companies/people with whom I spoke BEFORE I got to the interview won't tell me there was a mistake and they're really not hiring

No one's told me lately the values of finding jesus

No one's given me ANY kind of religious lecture lately

Men get out of my way when I'm walking down the street

People get out of me and Mahhh Woman's way when we walk down the street together

People actually LOOK at me when they're talking to me now

Women don't clutch their purses tighter when I walk by.

Surprisingly, not every homophobic woman in the world thinks I'm hitting on her anymore

I can walk into ANY gas station, bar, club, grocery store, restaurant, etc in ANY part of Texas and NOT have to worry that Bubba's gonna want to kill me or string me up to a fence post.

Some of that is male privilege, but most of it is STRAIGHT privilege. The male privilege is a little bit different.

Do I *enjoy* it? You bet your sweet ass I do. I, for the first time in my life, DON'T live in this constant state of 'having to look over my shoulder' or be 'hyper aware' of my situation. I mean, there's regular safety issues without the added hassle of homophobia and being constantly 'on guard' for some corn-fed, bubba Texan wanting to kick my ass. As someone who's been called, "Lez/Dyke/Lezzie/He-She/Fag/Faggot/Homo/Boy-Girl/YouNameIt since I was two years old from friends, kids, teachers, co-workers, principals, parents, family, passers-by, and ANYONE else...yeah, I'm enjoying people NOT fucking staring at me.

For the first time in 36 years, I've gone an entire month without being called some sort of homophobic/transphobic slur.

And really what am I supposed to do when handed a 'hello' from someone who's reading me as straight? Yell at them and tell them *not* to say hello?

Should I tell women to clutch their purses like they 'used' to?

Should I tell people they *should* grab their kids?

You can't 'give back' the privilege.

But you can stand up for shit you don't believe in. If someone's saying something homophobic around you...CALL THEM OUT! Tell them you find their humor offensive.

But really, what are you gonna do? Run around coifed in a rainbow? What are you gonna do, run down the street tell folks you're a 'tranny'? You'll get killed before you make it to the next major intersection.

I tell some people I'm trans, and I don't tell other people I'm trans. It's not some people's business. My queerness isn't relative to every single conversation I have, and neither is my trans status. Honestly, I'm done being a fucking poster child. I've done it too long. I just want to live the rest of my fucking life NOT being pointed at, stared at, slurred at, beaten up, or any other damned thing...I'm not coming out to the whole world anymore. And honestly, what's the point? I can be supportive, and I can be political, and I can still be the same loud-mouthed, opinionated jack ass I've always been. The difference is people now don't have to judge me BEFORE I open my mouth. And, because I'm taken more seriously, my words actually carry more weight now than they did before. I can be a much more useful mouth-piece without wearing my "I'm trans" T shirt while I walk down the street.

Hell yeah passing is a privilege. I (me,me,me) get to tell whom I (me,me,me) *want* to tell. I (me,me,me) might get judged now on my actual merits (as in workplace) instead of my queer status. IF I get a job now, it won't be because I get to be the visual 'diversity marker'. "Ohhhh, look how awesome we are...we hired a lesbian! Go Team Diversity.<insert backpat here>"

I think anyone who has privilege (passing or otherwise) needs to be aware of it, but I also think it's ludicrous for anyone to *want* to be oppressed. Honestly, I think that's more a cover up for guilt. No one wants to be oppressed...that's a given. It doesn't mean you have to utilize the tools of oppression you were given, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to constantly put yourself in a place of being oppressed.


Dylan

I read something last night that reminded me that we need to think of this as "white male privilege" not just male privilege. I was reading about an African American FTM who gets profiled by police now and is finding himself pulled over a lot. Amending again.....heteroseuxal white male privilege. All males are not equal.

Rufus

Heh. I knew my post was going to get some conversation going. I guess I need to clarify a couple things because I didn't do this very well in what I said before.

A) I don't believe that privilege is something I can choose not to have. Once I have physically transitioned to the point that I can be stealth, I will have no more control over how people treat me than I do now. I understand this fully. Sorry if I made it seem like I am under the wrong impression.

B) If I enjoy being treated with more kindness and openness and treated better, that won't make me a bad person per se. What I was asking in my last post is really, where does this fit in my own personal sense of responsibility to be an advocate for transgender rights in my community, my country?

C) I do not plan to wear rainbows all over myself and introduce myself as Drew, the transguy. I am just Drew. I think its going to be a case by case basis for me with whom and where to be out.

I just feel a need, inwardly, to be visible in a political way. Does that make sense to anyone? I know that there are places in the United States where it is dangerous for people like me to be out. I don't plan to place myself in harmful situations just to make a point. I just strongly believe that being as out as I can be, as out as makes sense for me, is the right thing to do to further the cause of equal rights for sexual and gender minorities.

If we all come out, we win. I don't say this to pass judgment on others or to preach to people. I say it because it's true and it needs to be said. The words feel uncomfortable coming out of my mouth, believe me! I am scared when I think about it, because after all, I am taking T and had one surgery and planning another surgery not only for me to feel right in my body, but also so that other people will see the real me. This isn't something that I already know how I will navigate, personally. I just feel that being as out as I can where it makes sense to do so is the right thing to do - for ME.

I hope this makes some sense. It's 4 a.m. so please don't hold it against me if it doesn't.

Couple thoughts.. I would have thought that of course, its a totally different thing, the notion that passing as straight, by default as it were.. was a totally different hing, than passing for a Transperson..
But I regret to say, realize from reading some of these responses, that indeed, some people only recently figured that out.
At least now i understand better, the why of the vocal diatribes !
Good grief, teh difference is night and day...

Merrick,

I'm having a hard time understanding your post/points. Can you please clarify?


Thanks,
Dylan

Just some thoughts--I apologize as they are not well formulated, as I've been having some epiphanies.

I don't think I can generalize "passing" to include the trans experience of passing and femme "passing" as an experience that is the same in any way. I also think that "passing" becomes and has to be an active choice, and for me, people misreading me as something other than queer is not my fault nor is it my responsibility, but with that, as others have discussed, comes with it, a certain amount of privilege. I am certainly not denying that I don't receive het or cis or gender privilege, however that is juxtaposed with the oppression I experience as a female, so I would say I experience privilege moreso than Dylan, even when he does pass as male. However, I must certainly caveat that I don't feel that "passing" all the sudden makes one free in this world, and I certainly don't feel that "passing" all the sudden brings inalienable rights. Dylan and I cannot get married and Dylan and I cannot pass in certain contexts, and despite all the privileges in one on one encounters, we are still in the same boat, in the sense that we are second class citizens because of our relationship and Dylan's parts. We are also queer, and most of our friends our queer, and most of what we do is queer, and so if there was ever some sort of raid on our favorite social spot (cops still raid queer bars in parts of Texas, and there have been some recent incidents, so we are not outside of that target, except it's not as likely to happen here in Austin, you never know), we'd go down like everyone else. Dylan's likely to get the shit beat out of him, and I am likely to find myself in that spot when I am with him. A gay guy was attacked downtown in Austin many months ago, and Dylan and I could just as likely have that fate (I would argue Dylan moreso) just because we are walking out of some rainbow flag waiving bar or club. We have the same fear of really drunken, coked up UT frat boys as any other queer in this town, along with any woman or person of color in this town. The whole city is on alert, quite frankly, when UT wins a football game and the fucknuts head downtown.

However, I will say that I do live in a more "progressive" city perhaps, so I don't feel the harassment in the way that other femmes might at work or in quiet social circles (all bar and club and downtown activity aside). And I don't really feel invisible, nor need or want to be invisible. This is actually a great privilege. I am also not responsible for how I am read, and if I am read wrong, then I go about educating on that but then I have the comfort to do that. I also work in a real social worky environment, and although I am not denying that discrimination does not occur, people keep it to themselves for the most part, or they are willing to talk through whatever it is that may be discriminatory.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't view my experience as a femme as "passing" but more so an experience of assumptions made by others about me, if that makes any sense.

I think, however, whether I identified or was viewed as straight or queer or whathaveyou, I would still have issue with jokes being made about anyone, and would do the proper professional thing and move up with a manager in addressing it. I think that is privileged because I am also in a work environment that wouldn't have that, at least not allowing it out of the mouths of any one in a public work space without some sort of repercussion.

I think passing is a tricky thing, and we can't cart blanche/lump sum/speak too generally about it as an experience. I also think variables impact this experience and compound things in a way individually that sometimes that experience might seem very privileged (but in a real double bind kind a way) and yet it might also be one of the most dangerous of places a person can be--say in the instance where someone passes and is discovered, and the result is the death of that person (hate crime is highest among trans people, in the GLBTQ community, let's not forget). And as I said above, I do not think you can lump everyone into a general experience of "passing" nor carte blanche say it is the same type of "privilege," as in some cases there may be no privilege to it, when in other cases there might very well be.

passing a priviledge?????????
 

first let's discuss the word priviledge......
Latin: privilegium - privus (private) leg,lex (law)

Priviledge is a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit, advantage, or favor

do i get special priviledge for looking like i do
most certainly
am i ashamed or sorry that i "pass" as a man
Hell No!
I am a man
i didn't go through what i have been through to march around and introduce myself as Andy the Transguy
screw that

People are gonna think what they want
and i don't give a rats ass!

I am not a very "political" person. but i do stand up for my LRGBLT.... (whatever) brothers and sisters.
i am out at work
they have seen the whole transition
i am out to my family
and they love me more than ever
i am out to my friends of all walks of life.

but.........
i never was a big flag wearing, rainbow brite, prostesting, badge wearing, card carrying member of the LRGBLT.

i intend to create change and promote unity quietly, whilst the world is sleeping.

:moonstars:

Last summer I went to a trans suport meeting hear at the Philladelphia center,where ive been a suporter since it begain.The group is there for trans folks,ppl with trouble with gender expreson as well as cross dressers.ect.I have know most of these ladies and gentlemen on and off for a while.Dureing the meeting one of the girls sugested they have a beautician come to the next meeting to help with choseing makeup,dress styles and all.Then the person speaking turned to me and said ..we will get u a bubba coach.Folks I felt like I had been hit with a brick,no one said a word to the speaker who I have known for years and is a neighbor of mine.I just sat there like a dumb knot on a log with that same kind of look on my face hopeing she was kidding me,but she wasnt at all.It wasnt long that the meeting was over.Yes, I had picked her up and brought her to the meeting and was takeing her home.Not once did she say a word,nor have I herd from her sence.Yes ,t pissed me off big time,u bet it was hard for me not to say what was going thrue my mind wich was not nice for shure.
When ppl talk about privilege and passing I often wonder how we a a glbt community can say such things to other ppl,true we take a lot of crap from the straight world but we shouldnt have to deal with it in our own.We all know it happends ,one of these day I hope no matter who and how we represnt ourselves this dosent happen to someone else.Now dont think im digging up old bones hear cause all im doing is useing this as an example of how we shouldnt treat one another s its enogh to deal with the normal everyday bs of liveing in a world where we are put down,laughed at,stared at
ect.Respect is something we all should be given no mater how we id in the world...This is 2010 I hope at some point this happends...but im not holding mybreath.

Andrew,

Why would drag queens be upset by this thread, and honestly, what do drag queens have to do with this conversation?


Confused,
Dylan

Hey Andrew -

I definitely didn't start this thread to make anybody feel bad. I just had a lot of questions about whether and when passing is a privilege - and I wanted to open that conversation up beyond the femme privilege discussion. I'm really grateful to be hearing differing viewpoints, because I think it's an issue where there are many sides and perspectives - and maybe it's not an issue where we can get any sort of meaningful consensus - and maybe that's okay.

Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around all of the people from every part of the LGBTIQ community sleeping as we are all have been a part of the social, medical, mental health, political and legal processes that paved the way for you and others to go through transitioning. And have been for many years. It didn't happen over night and by transpeople only. The trans movement is an offshoot of the Second Wave of feminism. Look it up!

I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community. And to the hundreds of thousands of people from every walk of life with progressive politics that have donated time and money to organizations that serve and protect you! And I don't give a rats ass what you think of this while you are attending support groups needed for transpeople funded exclusively and in part by public funds. And, don’t even go to paying for elective surgeries yourself. Many people do this all of the time for various reasons. You do not have the only wallet that has been hit. And frankly, as an individual, I have no problem with my tax dollars going for trans surgeries or for mental health services. I'd like to see all of these services covered just like any other medical procedure by insurance or socially funded medical programs.

What the hell island do you think you live on?

Why do you find chef's post an affront to the LGBTQ community and this site?

Chef says very plainly that he has stood up for the GLBTQ community. I don't understand why not wanting to announce One's Self as a transguy at every meeting is an affront to others.

Also, the trans movement started well before Second Wave feminism started.

I also find it quite disturbing that you are trying to 'guilt' someone with your use of 'public funding'. People don't OWE allies a big hug...anymore than you owe straight allies a big hug.


So Had It,
Dylan

ALH~~
Yes,it was a huge insult but I just bit it back cause I really didnt see any good coimeing from me blowing up as it made many others already uncomfortable as it was.The next day I got a fue calls from others appolagising for the comment as it was uncalled for, wich I appresheated.Truth is I was so shocked at the comment it took a while for me to address it.If I have lerned anything over the years is controle when faced with situations like this.

Yeah, none of us would be anywhere without activists. We do agree there.

However, Chef owes no one a thank you. I owe no one a thank you. And again, Second Wave Feminism may very well have questioned gender. However, again, transpeople have existed LOOONNNNNNNNG before Second Wave Feminism. And let's not forget too that Second Wave Feminists have shot transpeople in the ass.

I really have no idea what your issue is with Chef's post. And here's where I'll stop speaking for Chef.

I have a huge issue with your post back to me.

1. When it comes to transpeople and marriage, your post negates the fact that most transpeople actually CANNOT marry. And those who can, do so surreptiously. Most states won't allow transpeople to legally marry.

2. I actually disagree. I mean, yeah, it would be great if we could all come together and support eachother. However, our issues are different. Also, let's not forget who passed the first ENDA bill at the expense of transpeople.

3. First, I said it was a tight walk at this point. I'm sitting 'a top' not that much male or straight privilege. I get some from time to time. But, please explain your comment, "...remember where you came from". From where do you think I came? And also, why is it I've left from whence I came (in your opinion)?

4. Actually, most of the homophobia/transphobia I've experienced has come from the Yankee states/areas.


Dylan

Atlast,

I'm really just wondering why you're telling transpeople how they need to act, and whom they need to thank.

And really? Telling the oppressed they need to be grateful to/for the oppressors? Really?


Dylan

Privilege is seductive. Once you have it, it is extremely difficult to give it up, and I acknowlege the fact that I do not want to give it up. While I agree with papachris that I would (I hope to God) In my own life I have experience the privilege of "passing" for most of my adult life. I am cis-gendered, love being a woman and femme, and have passed as straight thoughout my queer evolution. For half of my life, I have had the additional privilege of "passing" as straight in a straight relationship, because my late husband was FTM. Now, six years later, I am beginning a relationship with another FTM who has lived his whole adult life as male. So the "passing" privilege goes on.

Passing has brought me much in the way of privilege. In hundreds of ways, far too many to list, I have benefitted from having been perceived as straight.
The two most important to me have been that I was able to legally marry my beloved and have society acknowledge him as my husband, and that we were able to adopt children as a couple, and have both names on the paperwork, and not have to fight for that right/privilege. My relationship was recognized and supported in ways that would never have happened had we been gay. (Or for that matter, if they had known he was trans.)

I echo PapaC's Hopes (quoted below) that I would be able to tell who I am if ever confronted. But I deeply hope I will not have to face this confrontation.
[QUOTE=PapaC;134067]
Is it because I'm stealth? Yes and no. I'd like to think that I have the strength/courage/determination to be able to look at someone straight in the face if ever asked and state who/what I am.

Here's the flip side for me. I am in the closet as I never was in the thirteen years I was evolving as a lesbian prior to my knowledge of my darling's trans status. I have secrets that are important to me to protect, and which would be very painfull for my whole family if they were revealed. (My children do not know that their father was not a bio-male. He did not want them to know, so I am honoring his wishes and maintaining silence though I feel like a "sword of Damocles" hangs over my head because of the possible "outing" of this secret.

While I have wonderful Gay friends from my earlier life, I feel alienated from "my people" due to my "straightness." I miss gay life. I miss the instant connection, the shared experience and the beauty of the lifestyle.

Yah, I know, cry me a river, chick, I know I have benfitted and I know I am privileged.

I will be back later for more. It's late.

Smooches,
Keri

I don't have any issue one way or another with anyone's post, but in terms of health care and social services, feminism has helped to pave the way for many- including trans people- and there seems to be a lack of knowledge and appreciation for that at times. Sometimes it does feel like a kick in the teeth.

The reason some are able to pass is because of work that has been done before them to create the services needed for that. None of us would have access to the social services and health services we do now, however limited they may be, without the work done by the generations before us- in terms of the queer community that includes both feminists and trans activists (with overlap between the two of course).

Our Bodies Ourselves- our ability to have agency and control over our bodies- is very critical for women and trans people (some of course are both)- and all the work that has gone into that has given us so much more than those who went before us.

It seems a bit hard to hear sometimes that I am just doing my thing and take my privilege and no I'm not a political activist.

I posted a link to this already in another thread, but there was an interesting article written by Michelle O'Brien, a trans woman, who discusses the intersections of feminism and trans activism, particularly around health care issues.

http://www.deadletters.biz/feminism.pdf

As to the topic of this thread, I do not pass for male and I do not pass for straight. I pass as a dyke or lesbian, which is what I am. I don't think many people out in the world really understand or know about butch or what that is. If I am mistaken for male, it is only temporary. I don't think many see me as straight because I am treated quite differently from feminine women- straight men seem to think quite often that women are at their disposal- for their attentions, to do their bidding, etc- which is why I have never thought of femmes as having any sort of straight privilege. Men ignore me, unless they are being hostile.

I am white, middle class and able bodied so I do have my own sets of privileges. Being a masculine woman is a mixed bag. I am more at risk in some ways for homophobic attacks, but I am also fairly insulated from male attention and many assumptions they can have about women- which I am quite grateful for.

i hate being confused for straight; it sucks being thought of as something (anything) i'm not.

This is interesting. I am currently working on a Ph D. internship and my topic is Nella Larsen's novel Passing, and have had to recently define what it is. It never really dawned on me all the different ways it can be applied. Even in a fiction novel from the Harlem Renaissance, the characters enjoy some kind of privlegde as Mulottas passing as white.

I know for my life being a femme is both difficult and a luxury. In this internship, I have had to explain my life and who I am to my peers because there is sort of no way around it. One of my peers is a straight girl who is rather masculine and she has to explain to people, including her family, that she is straight. We have exchanged stories of invisibility and now that this topic has come up, I will have to ask her about any privledges she feels she has or lacks because of her appareance.

Thanks for the thought provoking topics of discussion that I can take into the real world and find out about.

lillith