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Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero
There's a heated debate in New York over plans to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site
What do you think??? why can't they build it somewhere else?? why there??? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...ag=mncol;lst;3 Opponents call it a mosque that's in the worst possible place. This site should be turned into a museum," said one New Yorker. Supporters call it a cultural center in the best spot to encourage understanding. "If a mosque were built then you guys would know what Islam is about," said mosque advocate Dania Darwish. At issue, a building in lower Manhattan, the proposed site of a 13-story community center and Islamic prayer space, reports CBS News correspondent Jeff Glor. "This is the Muslim community's effort to rebuild Manhattan," said Park 51 Project spokeswoman Daisy Khan. The controversy is that it's only two blocks from ground zero. Tthis week Sarah Palin upped an already raucous debate when on Twitter she called on "peaceful" Muslims to "refudiate" the plan, calling it "a stab in the heart" for America. Palin's "Refudiate" Tweet on Mosque Draws Fire Liberal bloggers pounced on the made-up word "refudiate" and Palin retracted her Tweet but not her sentiment, saying Shakespeare "liked to coin new words too." Grammatical debates aside, New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg has come out firmly in support of the plan. "Everything the United States stands for and New York stands for is tolerance and openness," he said. "My hope is that [the community center] attracts a lot of people who don't understand Islam," said Valerie Lucznikowska of 9/11 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow Tim brown, a former New York City firefighter who lost 93 colleagues on Sept. 11, calls the proposal a slap in the face. He has a message for the developers. "Stop it. Stop hurting the families. Everyday there are stories in the newspaper. They're hurting the families again. They don't deserve it. These American families have paid too much," he said. Brown and others, including New York gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, are calling for an investigation into financing behind the $4.8 million building purchase. Their concerns, spurred in part by comments the center's imam, Faisel Rauf, made to "60 Minutes" in 2001, just weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks: "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf. Citing anti-Americanism, opponents are pushing to have the building declared a landmark making it far more difficult for any Muslim center construction to begin. |
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. |
Islam and Muslims (as a whole) didn't blow up the World Trade Center anymore than christianity and christians blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
You think anyone in Oklahoma (or the country for that matter) is cryin' because there's a church near the OK Federal Building? I'll even bet there's LOTS of churches near abortion clinics christians like to blow up in the name of god too. Anyone cryin' about that? I Doubt It, Dylan |
By objecting to the building of this 15 story community center--with a gym, swimming pool, performance center and mosque--there is an implication that one believe all Muslims are terrorists and the Muslim community--at large--is to be blamed for 9/11.
Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims: Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos. Samad Afridi Ashraf Ahmad Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children) Umar Ahmad Azam Ahsan Ahmed Ali Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children) Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran) Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack) Jamal Legesse Desantis Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan) SaleemUllah Farooqi Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes) Osman Gani Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old) Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet) Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom) Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan) Nabid Hossain Shahzad Hussain Talat Hussain Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan) Yasmeen Jamal Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security) Arslan Khan Khakwani Asim Khan Ataullah Khan Ayub Khan Qasim Ali Khan Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures) Yasmeen Khan Zahida Khan Badruddin Lakhani Omar Malick Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old) Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old) Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures) Raza Mujtaba Omar Namoos Mujeb Qazi Tarranum Rahim Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old) Ameenia Rasool (33 years old) Naveed Rehman Yusuf Saad Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant) Shoman Samad Asad Samir Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November) Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan) Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust) Jamil Swaati Sanober Syed Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald) Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie) W. Wahid |
You beat me to the punch. TY, Dylan.
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These whole "Mosque that shouldnt be there" debates are springing from racism and intolerance and helping to foster a very unhealthy "us" versus "them" mentality.
What is sad is that the "us" who are fighting so diligently to keep the Trade Center ground as "America - Fuck Yeah" as possible want people to believe that you are "unAmerican" or "unChristian" or whatever if you think that it's racist to make a sqwuak over a Mosque being built near the grounds. The even sadder thing is that the "them" that are supposed to be this evil mass-killing entity of "Down with America!!" lost friends and family in the bombings as well (since not everyone who worked at the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, or who was on one of the planes was the lily-white hyper-Christians that are portrayed in the ridiculously cheesy "The Statue of Libbertee is shakin' her fi-yust!!" country songs and propaganda that is so rampant since that time). "They" are not the enemy. Ignorance is. |
While I understand the sentimental impact if this, I cannot understand the blatant ignorance and racism that would make this even an issue.
For the eight Bush years 9/11 was used as a tool to backtrack the US in Human Rights, Civil Liberties, etc. The scare tactics and the racial profiling that followed are still used today, as is evident by this thread. I agree with Dylan, Muslims were not responsible for 9/11, and his analogy it is right on target. I also want to thank Manul for bringing up an excellent point. Funny how racism makes all of us throw the very laws the US was built on out the window. |
I designed a beautiful memorial to be built there as well as others, and I shall believe to my death that a memorial should stay there.
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It's not a mosque but a community center (the main purpose of the facility). I think it would open up discussion between the Christian side of the US and others. There are many interfaith discussions that happen without MSM views. It may be worthwhile to start letting the community have those discussions.
I have to agree with Dylan. |
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The groups concerned about sharia law in America (which is just a smokescreen to justify a conclusion they've already arrived at) have as their selling point fear of Muslims. What's amazing about this is that it's not *just* this community center. In Tennessee there's a similar flap over a different Muslim community center. So what happens in New York has potential ramifications across the country *beyond* the public relations stupidity that denying the permit would be. If New York City, the most diverse city in the country, does not permit this community center then the folks in Tennessee will be emboldened in not permitting a community center or mosque built in their backyards. And that can spread like a wave. One fascinating thing is that this is make all of these folks who are so quick to pronounce themselves more Constitutional-than-thou, is that it is forcing them to come out and say what many of us presumed they have meant all along vis a vis the Establishment clause. While the words are "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." what they want it to mean is "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Christian religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." In other words what they mean by 'freedom of religion' is really, "freedom to practice the sect of Christianity you wish". But they don't mean freedom of religion. Ultimately, if this community center doesn't get built both groups of fanatics-Christian and Muslim--will get precisely what it is they are hoping for. I can think of no greater memorial to those who were sacrificed at the altar of intolerance than to build this community center. |
I think the mosque should be built. Denying this mosque goes against the constitution and religious freedom. Denying this mosque tells the world that the US blames all Muslims and lumps them altogether as terrorists and people to be feared. If a mosque cannot be built within two blocks of the trade center site then where can it be built? Within a mile, 10 miles, 100 miles? Banned altogether from the state of New York? Yes, this might be slippery slope thinking, but if two blocks is too close then why isn't a mile too close. The mosque should be built.
Melissa |
Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.
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I believe in division of church and state. It should have no bearing what buildings go in 2 blocks from the site.
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what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids?? i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views. wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York |
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What sides are there to look at??? Why can't a Mosque be built or even a community center or hell something anything with Muslim ties? Why? We have churches at every block corner, why can't all of us who do not follow Christian oppression be allowed to build a place wherever there is a space? Extremists were responsible for 9-11 I just don't understand how people don't get this. Honestly there is no all sides kinds of views, because that day ALL of us regardless of race, religion or gender felt it, were impacted, and remember that very day that our government used a tragedy to install fear into Americans about someone who is not WHITE nor Christian. THAT is the reality of it and it's still crippling this country to this very day. |
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Thats cool Popcorn submitted a drawing! :) |
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We still don't have those rights back. |
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Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...) But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question. Dylan And how come there was never any (excused) panic after Oklahoma City in which (white) people ran around beating and killing people who 'looked like' the bomber (i.e. militaristic white males with brownish hair worn in a 'high and tight' style...you know, cuz that's what allllllllllllll xtian bombers look like, and they should all be treated like the terrorists they truly are) |
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Sara Palin? |
Sarcasm Alert
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Dylan...using the same logic that all X religion-practicers are responsible for the actions of a few of the X religion-practicers 'Cuz lest we forget, Obama's a terrorist too since he's (not) Muslim...oh annnnnnnnnnd is middle name is Hussein...that makes him a terrorist dictator! |
Let's not forget:
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Dylan:
As I love pointing out (and hate that I live in a world where it is true TO be pointed out): Each white Christian who performs a given act of violence is *that* white Christian. A singular incident unconnected to anything or anyone else. The KKK is N singular, bad apples, none of whom are connected to one another and all of them coincidentally gathering under the banner of that organization, while at the same time being *completely* isolated from one another. Every non-white and every non-Christian who performs a given act of violence is ALL of that group, X, and all other members of that group either understand why the action took place and/or is even now walking over their own parents to get in line to be the *next* member of that group X to perform such an act. No one mentioned McVeigh's religion because he wasn't *really* a Christian--no matter what he might have said about himself and, looked at in the correct frame, wasn't *really* a white man either. We can know this because no Christian or white man could *ever* do the acts that McVeigh did and since we know he performed those acts, we can assume that he was neither white nor Christian. On the other hand, John Lee Malvo (the DC sniper) is all black men and the only reason that, for instance, my father wasn't *also the DC sniper is that he was already deceased by that point and even *then* it might be that all the black men who were already dead rose from the grave in order to queue up to be the next freeway sniper. I know, I know, it looks like a double-standard but only when viewed in the wrong (read liberal) light. Actually a consistent standard is being applied to all non-whites and non-Christians and a consistent standard is being applied to all white men who are Christians so there's no double-standard! Isn't FOX news logic fun? Quote:
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I think you're on to something. I mean, what *better* disguise for an Islamo-fascist, socialist, terrorist dictator what hate the Baby Jesus (tm) than as a Christian President of the United States? I mean, has anyone ever *seen* a picture of Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden in the same room at the same time? No! Coincidence? I think not. Obama is tall. Osama bin Laden is tall. Bin Laden is about 50 and Obama is about 50. So how likely is it that these are two different men? I'd say those chances are 4 billion to 1! I mean, have you ever seen Obama drive a Chevy? No. Have you ever seen Obama play baseball? No! Have you ever seen Obama eat apple pie? No! I'd also like to see Obama answer questions about the disappearance of the planet Alderan about a quarter century ago. Darth Vader's voice--done by a black man. Obama--black man. And Grand Moff Tarkin was tall--and again, Obama is tall. Too many coincidences, I think that Obama is probably behind the construction of the first Death Star. Cheers Aj (The sad thing is that there's no parody any of us could post that would even *begin* to sound over-the-top compared to actual Tea Party/Republican rhetoric.) |
Aj,
It's all so crystal clear now! I don't know how I could have missed all of this before You're sooooo right! I never HAVE seen Obama and bin Laden in the same place at the same time! Obama's birth year is also 1961...mhmmm, that's right If we move the numbers around and invert the 6 that makes it 9am 911! DaVinci Must Have Known Of This!, Dylan...bets there's a church somewhere near the White House! |
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the Rev. Jerry Fartwell, makes me wanna hurl........... |
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Ohhhhhhhhh, but I saw on a poster that president Obama is the new KKK. Seriously, I agree that it is maddening that if any one POC acts a certain way then every POC must by default be the same. Things are so illogically stupid right now....maybe they always have been? but somehow the present always seems stupidest! |
Hey everyone........ hope no ones mad at me for starting this thread.....
i just heard and read about it this morning on the news and thought it might be a good topic for discussion...... just sayin |
[QUOTE=dreadgeek;160866]Dylan:
I think you're on to something. I mean, what *better* disguise for an Islamo-fascist, socialist, terrorist dictator what hate the Baby Jesus (tm) than as a Christian President of the United States? I mean, has anyone ever *seen* a picture of Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden in the same room at the same time? No! Coincidence? I think not. Obama is tall. Osama bin Laden is tall. Bin Laden is about 50 and Obama is about 50. So how likely is it that these are two different men? I'd say those chances are 4 billion to 1! I mean, have you ever seen Obama drive a Chevy? No. Have you ever seen Obama play baseball? No! Have you ever seen Obama eat apple pie? No! I'd also like to see Obama answer questions about the disappearance of the planet Alderan about a quarter century ago. Darth Vader's voice--done by a black man. Obama--black man. And Grand Moff Tarkin was tall--and again, Obama is tall. Too many coincidences, I think that Obama is probably behind the construction of the first Death Star. Cheers Aj (The sad thing is that there's no parody any of us could post that would even *begin* to sound over-the-top compared to actual Tea Party/Republican rhetoric.)[/QUOTE] Yup! nothing we could formulate that is that over-the-top! Sometimes, I so wish that Obama was not the first African American president.... all of this insanity to weed through at a time in our history when a mind such as his and the ability to think through things and hear others is so needed. Sure, I have some times of disagreement with him, but, I am so thankful to have someone with an actual brain as well as a conscience as president! And a mind that remains hungry for knowledge and seeing what is on the other side. Although it makes me nuts to think that he very well could end up a one-term president, I honestly believe that what he has accomplished thus far, will make a difference. A little tired of even the left’s lack of acknowledgement of some of the key policies his administration has gotten through. If the left would get going as in 2008, the threat of Obama having to deal with even more NO in Congress and losing more momentum would not be happening. Where are the Yes WE Can supporters? No matter how I try to understand some of Obama’s methods, I know that there is a piece I and all non-African American people don’t get, and never will. Can’t get in terms of how and why he measures his steps so critically and carefully. We will see something similar when a woman, a Latino, or any other POC is elected as president for the first time. |
""I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf. "
I don't understand why this is such a controversial statement. Unless someone is wedded to the idea that a bunch of "crazy Arabs" just decided that since there wasn't anything good on TV, they'd plan an attack on the US it seems to me to be painfully self-evident that US policies in the Middle East, Southeast Asia and the Arabian Peninsula might have *something* to do with other people's actions. That's not a justification and what Mr. Rauf said wasn't justification--he was merely pointing out the obvious in the name of trying to understand why things happen. Given that bin Laden had made it very, painfully clear in the late 90's that the presence of thousands of troops on Saudi Arabian soil was unacceptable and that to the end of changing that he was exhorting the shedding of American blood, I cannot understand why anyone would be surprised by the idea that Al Qaeda had a *reason* for attacking the US. Not saying it was a good reason but it was a reason nevertheless. Cheers Aj Quote:
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As is always the case, this religion is being singled out as the culprit. It isn't. The people that were responsible for 9/11 were a fringe group just like Christian Tea Party whackos and others commit violent acts against intitutions.
Also, Muslims died in 9/11...... as did people from various faiths and non-religious backgrounds it was a World Trade Center.... in a city that has always been a key melting-pot in the US. It is exactly this kind of thinking that got the US attacked in the first place.... |
I am still not 100% convinced that the US Govt at the time had no hand/knowledge in/of the 911 attack.
Think of all the rights we have lost since then. The fear mongering. I knew the second W was elected that we would be going to war. I sat in the middle of my living room crying, wondering how they would frame it. |
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The great strategic stupidity of the Bush administration is that in invading Iraq, they made bin Laden right that the United States would, without provocation, invade a Muslim nation and he played right into it making bin Laden appear both correct *and* prescient. One should not let terrorists dictate the terms upon which foreign policy is played out and the Bush administration certainly did that. They don't hate us for our freedom and they don't hate us for generally libertine ways. I'm not even sure that they hate us--they take a very dim view of our government's foreign policy but most international surveys I've seen on the topic suggest that both America (the ideas of our nation) and Americans (all us ordinary schmucks) are actually thought of pretty well globally. US government foreign policy? Not so much with the love. I think that there are things we could do that would actually go quite a ways toward giving us firmer ground to stand on, defang some of the terrorist rhetoric and help us withdraw from our empire at the same time. There's no strategic region to be in Saudi Arabia so we should leave. While we're on our way out the door we should cut the House of Saud loose and let them work it out with their own people. We should, in fact, cut loose Mumbarak in Egypt and perhaps King Abdullah in Jordan unless they hold free, fair and UN monitored elections. I'm not suggesting these things because I think that they will prevent another attack--I don't. I'm suggesting we do these things because they're strategically smart things to do. The fact that these moves would likely reduce the energy behind the next attack is something we get 'for free'. Oh and it goes without saying that we should get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan. If I can make a suggestion--when thinking about why the opposing force is doing what they are doing, try to get in their heads. You can start by looking at why your nation does things. Have we *ever* attacked another nation because we didn't like the way they ran their internal politics? No. Not that I am aware of, at least. We *have*, on the other hand, attacked other nations in pursuit of strategic policy goals. Assume that the OpFor is at least intelligent and sane enough to operate in much the same manner. Cheers Aj |
In my opinion, 911 served to accelerate the U.S.'s return to ugliness since the Reagan years. Nothing surprises me any more :|
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I have no issues at all with this Islamic Community Center being built. I am ever amazed that any thinking person would object.
just cuz..... If memory serves.......Tim McVeigh was no longer a Catholic. When he went searching for who he was after his military service, he ended up with white separatist christian militia......that is who all those whack wing nut militia folk are: fundamentalist separatist christians. Rachel Maddow did a great special on Tim McVeigh. Most of it was the words of Tim McVeigh.....he did extensive interviews with some press guy before he was murdered by the State. (I do not think he should have been murdered by the State..........I do not believe in the death penalty under any circumstances for any human being........it's state-sanctioned murder and makes us no better than the person we murdered.........why should we as a country crawl in that gutter? no response necessary...it's a rhetorical question.) |
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I also feel that the US lacks the capcity to understand governments in which religion is central to policy and their societal structures and values. I may not agree with them, either, especially in terms of the role and treatment of women in particular, but, I think our Christian focus (blindness?) keeps us from contributing to the kinds of things that can bring glocal piece. Although, this just isn't a simple situation. Looking at oil for example, certainly brings up a lot of things and most certainly was in play during Dub'ya's terms! Cheny as VP made that very clear. |
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For very good reasons--and reasons I am actually enthusiastically in support of--Westerners (this isn't an American problem) have a bit of trouble understanding states run by religions because Western Christendom made a pretty clear break between church and state after the European Enlightenment. That simply has not happened in the Middle East and in parts of Southeast Asia so we're certainly going to have problems understanding why, for instance, Iran works the way it does. In fact, of the Western nations America is probably *best* positioned to understand it because we are currently actively flirting with the idea of religious-rule or at least sectarian rule with a veneer of secularism just to keep up appearances for the neighbors. It is only in the United States that, for instance, a candidate who--as far as we can tell from her public pronouncements--really believes that there are demons and that prayer can combat them and have that person be viable as a political figure. Sarah Palin wouldn't last and certainly wouldn't be a power-broker in, say, Sweden but she is viable in the 2012 GOP primary. It seems to me that France, England, Germany *all* would have a much more difficult time understanding the role that the belief "God says our nation should do X" or "God says our society should be ordered thusly" has in public policy than the United States. Those nations are pretty thoroughly secular while the United States has a non-trivial population that *genuinely* believe that Jesus is returning soon, that people will be raptured up when he does show up, and that the state of Israel must exist so that the Jews therein can be 'perfected' or, failing that, wiped out to hasten the battle of Armageddon. We have people in the last administration who believe that so fervently, in fact, that they designed foreign policy around that belief! The American problem with understanding, for instance, Iran has much more to do with religious differences than in not understanding how the nominally secular government of Iran could be beholden to the religious authorities. We're most of the way there already and there are any number of public policies whose proponents can *only* justify them in terms of religion (prayer in schools, anti-Darwinism in schools, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control and non-fact-based sex education being the main examples). I'm curious, what do you think a less Christian focused view would do for the cause of world peace? Cheers Aj |
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