Flirting in a Non-GLBT Space
 

Femme visability is something I'm sure many femmes can identify with. I wanted to start a topic on meeting a potential mate outside the GLBT community. Obviously, at a club, bar or website that caters to the GLBT community, the dynamic is understood but what about outside that space?

As a femme, if you meet someone you find attractive, how do you approach the person? How do you let hym/her know you're interested without feeling foolish? I don't know about you but I've got no game. I'm very shy when it comes to flirting or I'm way too forward. There's simply no in between with me.

I mean, how do you say, "Hey, I see you're in the Queer community too. So am I but you just can't tell. Want to have lunch?" lol!

I have this lovely rainbow necklace I wear that could possibly come in handy sometime but some appropriate social advice would be great.

Forward On!
 

I'm forward, if I get turned down, oh well. At least I know.

Nothing ventured nothing gained ~

Just flirt..
 

Just flirt. I don't change my tactic from gay bar to Starbucks. Someone being straight or saying no doesn't / hasn't ever phased me.

Being femme (for me) is a fierce endeavor and that includes getting my flirt on where and when I want to.

Butches are often shy, and they have good reasons to assume that all women they might find attractive and interesting when they're in straight spaces are straight. We can spot them, but without that rainbow necklace they have no reason to suspect that they might be in the same room with one of us. Honestly, if I were a butch I would never EVER have the moxie to approach a woman for a date outside of designated LGBT space.

When I see an interesting looking butch I take a deep breath, then simply smile as openly as I can, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm Cheryl". I catch her eye and smile some more, waiting for her to respond. If I get nothing, I just say, "It's nice to meet you". I then force myself to not immediately run away in terror. A shy butch may be totally overwhelmed by the sudden attention and may need a few extra seconds to order her thoughts before responding.

Just remember that a butch in straight space has had a lifetime of feeling like there's water everywhere with nary a drop to drink. When I put myself in the place of a butch in straight space I know that it would take me far more than a few seconds to overcome the habitual hobbling of my flirting muscles in that circumstance.

It's all in eye contact and body language. A lot of people think I'm flirting with them even when that's the farthest thing from my mind. If you smile and lock eyes with someone that person usually know you're interested.

When I moved up here to Arkansas from FL, it was often really difficult for me to find others that I thought MIGHT be LBGT. Gay-dar was not working for me, and I had been surprised (and subsequently embarrassed) by assuming that the butch looking woman was gay, when in fact she was more of a country-small-town woman. Big difference from the women I had been used to in FL! Combine that with my own femme invisibility and I just about gave up!

Then I saw a couple of women at the grocery store, adn do admit to following them with my own shopping cart. (I know, kinda creepy, right?) Trying to get their attention, smiling, then saying something like "I just moved here to AR, and it is SO nice to see other family here!". Or the usual "Do I know you? You both look so familiar to me! Umm, would you happen to be family?"

I ended up meeting my fiance in an online service. She and I were both JUST looking for friends. hehehe.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

Flirting in non-GLBT space is definitely a different ballgame than in glbt space. I don't know if what I do is actually flirtation, but I definitely convey my appreciation in what I hope is a harmless way. I don't think I knew how to flirt with butches when I first came out - but over time it's become second-nature to give that look of acknowledgement/appreciation/knowing that tends to cause a corresponding blush or shy smile or stammer enough times for me to know that the message is conveyed. And occasionally a free coffee.

My intention is more of an "I see you" in an appreciative way than anything more aggressive - because I don't want to unintentionally communicate availability.

When I was single and found somebody attractive, it usually worked pretty well to be friendly and direct. A casual compliment works well if the person is available and interested. Many people will open up if you ask a few questions that aren't too invasive but require an opinion or history of some sort. I think the secret to successful flirting is not to be too invested in the results.

I say we femmes need a secret sign to signal butches out there when we arent in a LGBT space...like, putting a thumb on our chin when they look at us...which would mean YES I AM FAMILY!

I think my double take and jaw drop paired with a goofy smile lets them know but...

If that doesn't work- some solid eye contact with a more pleasant smile and some easy conversation...

If that doesn't work than I assume they don't think I'm as hot as I think they are and I can move on. :)

Femme's flirting with other Femme girls in cis straight spaces!
 

So, I am a femme who likes butches and femmes but usually I get more starstruck by femme girls. I have been in starbucks and asked a straight girl out by accident but it was totally worth the rejection because she said it made her day how honest I was.

That could have turned really bad, but it doesn't hurt to ask or flirt a little even with femme's in non queer spaces.:blueheels:

I have had it work out, but the ratio of successes to humiliating failures (for various reasons) caused me to give it up god knows how many years ago.

I simply don't do it. I have friends who do with great success. Better flirters than I. Better at taking disappointment. I don't know.

One of the things I hate is when a butch thinks I am looking at her because I am a straight woman STARING at the dyke. I just can't fucking stand that. I don't need to be made to feel invisible AGAIN. Guess what, some of the feminine folks out there are DYKES. *Gasp*

excuse me
if I may invade the femme zone briefly
only to say this is the most insightful post describing
the butch experience that I have ever read
And it came from a femme.

thank you :sunglass:

nothing ventured. . .
 

I work the fundamentals of flirting
Smile
Eye contact
Arrange for a touch, shaking hands, hand on the arm etc
then move in for the chatting and flirting while working the fundamentals.
I have found a little bit of ribbing and teasing goes well to establish rapport
I get turned down sometimes, I get surprised straight women occasionally but usually I get at least a fun chat and a if I am lucky a phone number or we leave together

When I see a butch woman in a public space, I catch her eye and smile. I'm not flirting (but it's okay if she thinks that). It's just a solidarity thing.

Yes to that a hundred times.

Oh, I HATE that! Hit the nail right on the head!

I havent gotten up the nerve to flirt in nonLGBT places yet ..
Still waiting on my Boi / Butch charming to find me :blueheels:

SUBSCRIBING!

Excuse me please but i just saw this thread...
 

As Dee said earlier about the 2x4 well that's me.
A week ago I went into Home Depo and this girl was trying to sell me a generator that directly connects to all the house stuff. She was very close to me talking and selling and looking into my eyes. She had her hand on my arm my hand and my shoulder then taking her hand all the way down my back. She did make me smile. That was just when I stepped in the store. I found what I was looking for and went back to the same door I entered because that is where I parked. Of course I talked to her again and still smiling. She did the same thing again. Very "touchy" and followed me to the door. My instinct was to look back to see if she was looking but I didn't. I am still wondering if she was waiting for me to look back. I mentioned this to someone and a simple answer was given "She was flurting with you." I said oh I kinda thought so. Out here where I live this lifestyle is still viewed as entertainment sad to say. Maybe the reason I didn't react was fear of rejection or being made fun of. Another maybe..what if she had a bet going with the casher that she could pick up more than 3 Butches that day. Sounds like I am shooting myself down but when reality kicks me in the face a few times then I finally remember. Thinking of a reason to leave this very small house today and maybe I thought of one. Think I feel like going to Home Depo and buying a paint brush or something small that I don't need.

Can I just add that Cheryl said it perfectly using the most perfect words and I thank you for sticking up for us. Very well said.
Dude-thanks for saying what you said to. It was also perfect.

Sorry to barge in on all you femmes but I thought this was a good place for my story of a 2x4 butch that I am.

S.

I think it really depends WHERE on the earth you are.

not everywhere is like where you live right now.

In London, never a problem. I'd get hit on all the time outside LGBT space. Butches and dykes and bis and femmes had no issue with letting me know they were interested. Also when I smiled and winked and purred, I did not need a 2x4 to let one know I was interested.

But here in vancouver? People are friendly, but reserved. I've had people tell me they were interested after hours of talking and you could have knocked me over with a feather. No sign whatsoever that they found me even remotely attractive. No lingering glance, no body check out, no sparkly look, nothing. wall. the reserve is worse than the UK in that regard.

So if I flirt, even in a LGTB space and get *nothing* back within... a three minute conversation, not even a twinkle in the eye, I leave. I've had my nads out quite a bit in my life too. if *I* am approaching, and smiling, and flirting and they can't show even the slightest bit of sexual interest? not even a two second eye drop?
Bye.

I have been on a couple of dates where people have NOT been afraid to throw me a bone when I approach - I'm not a nervous and inexperienced 20 year old femme and I'm not approaching inexperienced butches. If they can't tell I'm interested and they can't express interest back, then I am not going to stand there being vulnerable and harass someone who for all purposes looks to me like they want to be left alone. it's takes some serious huevos to approach someone who's body language is "FUCK OFF" in the first place. I hope butches do realise that it does take us some serious nerve to approach and flirt with a "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME" body language. Or as I like to call it: "resting grump face"

So I expect the slack to be mutually cut to me, too.

Edit to add - touching someone, I would never ever do. I have been brought up that you don't touch strangers, even on the arm. No one I know touches me to flirt. It's a no-no. So regional rituals are in effect. I know some places, it's completely acceptable and it isn't even a flirt.

If a butch ever came up to me, I would take the offer of buying me a coffee as a flirt. Whereas, who knows, someplace else, that's just polite. But I have to start somewhere to accept someone else's advances or I'd never get a fucking date.

Rusted rims, have you thought that maybe the girl touching your arm and flirting with you might have been very nervous as feeling vulnerable herself, then you walked off? You could have gotten really pissed off with her, accused her of something, told her your gf was in the car and gotten frosty....

I think a lot of us always assume the other person is coming from a place of perfect confidence. We aren't. We are all nervous. We are all vulnerable. I hope people would respond in that manner.

First of all I wasn't expecting it and things out here just don't happen like that. It is entertainment and a small chance to be harassed. I didn't want to walk into something I wasn't prepared for. Maybe the next time I might be a little more curious and take the hint and ask something like are you hitting on me? Guess I had other things on my mind. I don't know.

smiling back, thinking something naughty and grinning, giving her a wink, those are all accepted things to flirt back with. You don't have to go straight for "are you flirting with me" lol

I'd probably deny it if asked too abruptly. I'd feel as if I'd offended someone and back paddle very quickly.

but that's me.

I'm not yelling at you RR. I'm just saying your brain talk is all about how vulnerable you were. maybe considering that she is too might help? that's all. She's giving a small chance she could be harassed by other people in the store after you leave, a small chance you could get angry, a small chance that you are taken and get snotty and reject her in an unpleasant way. the risks aren't all on one side... that's all I'm trying to point out to people :)

Also I have to deal with this self-talk in my head: "what if she's taken and her gf is going to come in, in like the exact moment I'm trying"
"what if she thinks I'm ugly or gross? or rude? or invasive? or her dad died last week and this is really disrespectful?"
"she's looking at me oh god I really hope she doesn't do that hostile blank glare at me when I smile at her, I fucking hate that"
"There is 5,000 younger and prettier femmes in this city. I'm some 44 year old shoe leather, issue queen with gigantic baggage. She probably wants someone younger to hit on her"
"she looks like she's really in a bad mood and wants to be left alone. maybe now is a bad time. I could make her feel totally harassed. Maybe she doesn't want to be sexualised."


so if I *do* make it to saying hello, I've just made it through a WALL of self doubt. I didn't have this in london. it was easy. here, I bounced up to people, bought them drinks, chatted, introduced myself, and still wound up sitting by myself.

One hideously embarassing situation a very handsome woman was flirting back, very heavily and bought me a drink and I leaned in to kiss her about 30 min later and got "whoah! sorry chicky. I'm taken." Cue feeling completely humiliated as her mates chuckled. I left about 10 minutes later.

So I'm personally taking a breather due to high end anxiety of not ever getting any signals back that I recognise. I do feel a bit beaten up and worn out from constant vaguely friendly flat affect response. I've been home a year. The only dates I've been on have been from a dating site. Though there are dykes everywhere, I have not managed to successfully flirt with a single one. One flirted with me in the grocery line and I was so shocked, I bushed purple and dropped the chocolate I was looking at in the stand and mumbled and fled. And felt like an idiot after for doing that. I hope I didn't offend her.

once in 12 months isn't a good score, really. I've lost my mojo. I don't even go to LGBT events anymore cause sitting on my own sucks shit. I talk to as many people as I can, but no one invites me to sit with them, no one buys me a drink, no one asks me to dance and no one offered me a light for my cigarette (when I still smoked).

So.... I gave up, really. I can totally relate Martina.

Oh no, that's okay. I can't speak for everybody but I appreciate the feedback. :)

I think the 2x4 analogy implies that butches are dense.
Who would want to be around someone who thought they
were being flirted with constantly?

Its not so much dense _ but being caught completely off
guard. I dont expect to get flirted with , like fucking evah.


When it actually does happen , it takes a minute or twenty to sink in.
This woman's smirk, was enough to screech one boot to a full stop.
Not a cool move ,at all , fortunately , she did not see It. :l

Rusted, you gotta go back and check her out on your terms.
Nice and slow. Act like you cant find anything. : ]

Queer single hours for home depot and lowes are now
Officially on sundays from 1-3!

I think that some people may not actually understand the whole premise of flirting. If you
are open to the possibility that you are fabulous enough to be flirted with, then if you *think* someone *might* be flirting with you... you flirt back. to the same degree/level. this is now entering the flirt arena. the person who started, if they *are* flirting, will be encouraged and if they are flirting to pull you, rather than flirting for social fun, they will *UP the VOLUME* of it. You return in kind. they go further and at this point it's pretty damn obvious she's flirting. That's why flirting starts with a SMILE and not someone staring at "you" and sliding their tongue in and out from between their fingers and pinching their own nipple. right?

it's so they approach cautiously. Smile
smile back
wink
wink back

it's easy. just do back what they do. and eventually you'll figure out if they are flirting. But jeeze, yeah, I like people who know that they are worth flirting with and open to that happening. It's less crushing for me, as a vulnerable approaching person!

Dude just thinking that if you lost your smirk that easily in the aisles maybe it wasn't a sure thing. You made me laugh about the Lowes hours on sunday. The coolest thing about Lowes is that my niece started working there about a month ago. I told her she needs to start driving my truck to work and I will have her own key made. Yeah we laughed about it but I was serious.

Honeybarbara after reading your posts I did feel a little bit like I was in trouble for not responding. We did have a short conversation and I did make her laugh. Given the opportunity again she may remember me or not. I am sure there are a lot of butches that go in there every day and I probly melted into the crowd. Home Depot is always my second choice Menards my third and Lowes my first. As I said before this lifestyle is entertainment out here and I don't like to be made fun of. All through school I was picked on because I had "red hair and freckles". I hated that and now as an adult I get made fun of because of who I am. I hate that. The other night at work a guy I work with was going off on an article in the newspaper about gay people getting rights in Ohio. I grabbed my inter strength from some where and mildly responded. The words he was using is not repeatable. I guess with all that running through my head was probly some of the reason I did not respond to "The Flirt". Think I went into another thread with that but that's where I am.

In my own defense my thoughts are with someone else.

Ha - I had a slight flirting fail today. I came out of a bathroom stall to the sight of a beautiful butchy-type person at the sinks who was dressed as one of the wait staff. Without thinking twice, an appreciative and slightly drawn-out, "hey there!" escaped my mouth. Because every butch wants to be hit on in a public bathroom at their job. Ha. Anyway, there was a quiet "hey," a rapid drying of hands and a quick escape. I totally forgot about it til I started catching up on this thread. It's not like I didn't mean it, but I wasn't invested either. Mostly in the moment following my utterance I was thinking, "shit I hope she knows I know she's not a man," and "way to make public bathrooms even more socially uncomfortable for a butch." Oops! I'm sure she's fine and all, but it wasn't my proudest flirty moment.

If someone flirts with you, trust me, they will remember you.

a friend of mine has this issue with cute girls... so I came up with a scenario... a mate of yours is walking down the street on the opposite side... you shout and wave but he keeps going. why do you think that happened? Her answer: he didn't hear me

Ok. cute girl that you know and like is walking down the street on the opposite side. you shout and wave but she keeps going. Why do you think that happened? her answer: cause she's trying to blank me, she's not interested in me, I'm not good looking enough for her.

RR if you don't flirt back, if just means you aren't interested. you won't get in trouble. that's why it's flirting. But if it's as bad as you say? then if her coworkers see her flirting with you? she could get harassed and bullied.

If you *want* to flirt back, then just follow her lead. If you don't, then don't. :)

ugh. I know. that's my big fear. that I'll force sexualised attention on someone and they will feel harassed. it's often why I don't try twice at a firt and I have a hard time pushing anything if someone doesn't get it. to me doesn't get it looks just like not interested, go away. so I slink off feeling icky about myself fairly quickly.

Heh!
I am not talking zero self esteem or not feeling fabulous enough.
There are straight women who fuck with us for the sport of it.
In fact , I'd say 90% of the women who have flirted with me, are
straight. They are not afraid of pumping up the volume , they bend
ovah in front of us with their thongs hanging out (because they can)
If you have this happen enough times you then begin to get a bit numb
and grow an extra layer of the fuck off vibe.
Its survival , not a chip (honest)

If I was at a bar or club , I would ( hopefully) "get it" and be
more receptive.
A genuine come hither , at the dog park would be perfect.
I'm relaxed there. Not hurried with a million things on my mind.
No audience. (Back to the Shy stuff , lots of it)

Dude,, I like what you said here. That is the way I was thinking. In the right setting I would have been all over it but in Home Depot to me it was a game/conquest. Maybe it was for real but who knows. I am over it already.

I will throw this out there because I see Nat in here.
I gotta tell ya Nat she looked just like you. After meeting and seeing you at The Reunion she could be your twin sister. That is what I thought of as I was walking out the door. You 2 could be sisters no kidding.

If I didn't have someone in my thoughts maybe I would have acted differently and I will mention it again.

If that happens again I think I might push things just to see where things go and of course for the wonder of it all.

Thanks for all the responses. I did learn a few things from everyone.

Well shit, I do go to lowes and home depot to femme-gaze butches, but I rarely see one when I'm looking. I have a femme doppleganger - how cool is that???

striaght girls (bi curious) girls do actually hit on me too lol

I just flirt back and smile. till I get bored and then ignore them.

by talking with them during flirting, I can figure out if they are straight. Also, I can usually tell by the come -on. feminine dykes are usually a bit more cool about it, straight girls a bit more bimbo. feminine dykes also tend to try and take the lead a bit, straight girls tend, from the get go, start talking about cheesy stuff straight men like. But generally in conversation during the flirting I can tell. Most of the time I'm not interested by their approach anyway. But I can still have enjoyable conversations with straight women who are obviously finding me attractive enough to enjoy flirting with me.

I do have straight friends who flirt with anyone, regardless of sexuality. because they are just that kind of people. they just like the attention and they like making people smile and laugh and feel sexual.

I tend to feel amused when straight girls hit on me. Unless they did things like grab my tits. which some of them did. Oxford students are rude. But the girls want to experiement with anything that moves really. I didn't think they were mocking me or trying to get me as a conquest. I thought they just wanted sexualised attention.

(in London/oxford. no one hits on me here...)