Prenuptial Agreements. Anyone have one? Anyone who would consider one if they married?
 

With the recent passing of same-sex marriage in many states, getting married, is no longer "getting married". People can take your shit now!

I was just wondering what people's thinking was about prenups. Do you have one? Would you have one? Do you have any future inherited property you would lose, money, other things of value to you that you want to make sure that you will still have after you divorce?

Here is the first article I found on the subject:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ows-30283.html

If I married my partner, I would want a prenup. I would want one due to my future inheritance. My partner and I have talked about it and it doesn't matter to her. I think we should have one for her sake, as well. Although she says she would be comfortable with much/most of her money going to me when she passes as she knows I will pass it onto her son, it is important to me that she designate a certain percentage to him (whatever she decides upon), that would be "his" upon her death (or at whatever age she thinks would be appropriate for him). It would just make me feel better for some reason.

Any money we make after getting married I would have no problem with splitting. It is what I am coming into the relationship with and will get from my family upon their deaths (ok, so my mother's death), that I am concerned about.

How do others feel? As I said earlier, if you had something/things that you don't want to chance losing in the divorce, would you tell your partner you would like a prenup? How would you feel if your partner wanted one?

Prenup?
 

No, I would not want a prenuptial agreement before marriage. I will only marry once and I will not be contemplating divorce before the marriage. It will be for the rest of my life and/or hers. I would want to leave everything I own to her if something were to happen to me. I would want to make sure that she would be taken care of in the event of my death and I'd want to have a life insurance policy in case of such an event.

Marriage is a very serious relationship and should be taken as such. If I have doubts before I marry her, then she is not the woman for me. If there is a need for a prenuptial agreement then there would be no marriage for me.

Just my two cents...

My partner and I have talked at length about money.

I never really had any money to speak of till my current job but it is so soul-crushing, I am looking for another job. If I change jobs, I will be back in the same general salary ball-park I always was.

My surgeries and hospital stays put me in debt that I am still climbing out from under. :|

My GF is a regional director and makes way more than I do and always has. She spent a short time after college working as a PE teacher and then went into the transportation industry for a corporation; a primarily male industry.

I still don't have a lot of money to speak of. She does.

She got soaked when her 21 year relationship ended. They were domestic partners but had no pre-nup.

I know a lot of people think a pre-nup is awful, untrusting and unromantic. I personally think it is wise. I don't think that I have a right to expect any of the money or property that she had when we got together. I have daughters and grandchildren. If I die, I want them to get what is fair.

She had nieces and nephews that she wants to do the same.

All cards on the table, no surprises before the I do's. A lot is not going to be easy to talk about. My welfare years were grim and they were some years that should have been good earning years but were spent in poverty instead

She needs to know all of it. Just a couple more secret shames around bad money choices during my time living on poverty lane. Even though it was long ago-it still has repercussions today....

Yeah Kanye, we want pre-nup, we want pre-nup!

Everything nice and kosher. It protects both of us.

It's interesting to me how a marriage, or the end of one, can come down to protecting money. There are many "assets" in a marriage, money is the only tangible thing we can control when the bottom falls out. So, a lot of lawyers are making a lot of money selling marriage insurance in the form of pre-nups.

Bottom line for me is I need to trust my partner enough NOT to screw me over if things go bad. Otherwise, I don't need to get married. Marriage doesn't have a net.

I am a firm believer in air-tight wills, power of attorney, etc...that is where I'll spend my lawyer money.

Hey, Kent, just to clarify, I am talking about two separate issues in the prenup. Money that happens at the time of divorce, and my partner's money in relation to her son at her time of death. I am not saying my partner would not get all of the money I have at the time of my death (including any money I received from my mother upon HER death).
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To clarify our position a bit more, neither of us our actually coming in to the relationship with a large amount of our own money (well, I am coming in with some retirement money). My partner is coming into the relationship with some money she received at her father's death. I will be getting some money at the time of my mother's death (most likely). So, for us, it is about protecting money that we received through our respective parents (her's now, mine later).

There is certainly no reason why we can't split the money we received from our parents when we divorce even if we have a prenup in place, but I can't think of a reason why that would make sense to either one of us to do that.

Currently, my partner and I do not share money. We do not share a residence. We would not do those things until we did marry. Perhaps if we were already sharing expenses it would feel different.

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To roll back to the original point though, and to be clear the above is not seen as me attempting to backpeddle, if we did come into the relationship with radically different amounts of money (see Anya's post), I assume I would still want a prenup. It would make things nice and clean at the time of divorce and I do feel that people should leave with the money they entered the relationship with. A prenup ensures that emotions don't come into play when it comes to the biggest stressor at the time of every divorce, the splitting of assets. For me a prenup has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with making things clean and easy. It has nothing to do with not trusting my partner.

Prenups can actually include assets after death as well. However, I made things confusing by mentioning that (which I noticed by reading Kent's post), so I was clearing that up for Kent and essentially saying to ignore that part of my post.

However, yes we will have a wills, power of attorny, etc.

I am in the same camp with Dapper and Kobi.

I think a prenup is essential for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is that it would encourage, actually force, a frank and open communication about money with all cards on the table. And, like Dapper, I am in the situation of probably having a substantial inheritance in my future. I don't do my planning around that, but the potential is there. I am also finding that age has a big and immediate way of ripping the blinders off.

The specific reasons for having it have already been articulated quite well. I have not been researching this as I have no current need for it. But I did read the the document that was linked to in the OP, and it raised a question in my mind.

This part:
"Encourage" divorce. At one time, many courts viewed any prenup specifying how things would be divided up in case the couple splits as void and unenforceable because it promoted divorce. The modern approach allows such agreements, but judges in some states still take a hard look at them. If the agreement appears to offer a financial incentive for divorce to one party, it may be set aside.

It made me run some scenarios through my mind, and I found this disturbing. In the "what if" department I was wondering about this. What if you were married to a person and they had a sudden behavioral change? E.g. Your partner develops a penchant for heavy gambling, or another habit that rapidly incurs huge amount of debt for which you would be liable. This makes it seem that if you were to seek divorce because the person became something other than what you initially married, a judge could view this as trying to preserve your own assets, (and that would probably be part of it), and could overwrite the prenup. Curious.

In some ways I think that gay couples in general have not had to deal with some of these hard decisions by default of circumstances. On the other hand, I suppose it would be no different than straight couples, some people will go in fully responsible, and some will not. (Acknowledging that different people define "responsibility" differently). In any event, it is a new discussion within our community and I think an interesting one.

Thanks for the great thread Dapper!

I quite agree with this sentiment. My comment was based on observations of what has happened to couples I have known in the past who had clearly not had such a discussion with each other prior to becoming involved with each other in such a way that their finances were enmeshed. Unentangling became a huge problem. Myself included, in my youth.

I believe that getting involved in a relationship that would include legally binding commitments without being fully informed would be irresponsible.

My understanding of the conversation is that we're discussing "in the event of divorce". I would not knowingly get into a relationship that I thought would come to an end, but sometimes surprises happen.

I'm practical too. I've also been through a divorce without a pre-nup. It was fine. We're both decent human beings, and we didn't try to screw each other over. Any contract can be battled out in court. If someone wants to screw you over, a pre-nup isn't going to stop them. It just gives them another contract to fight over.

I would request a pre-nup. Realist here.

At work I see daily people in stealing from family. Its also family and friends putting bugs in ears to TAKE what you can. People can be greedy and sometimes its not about the money, but revenge. Maybe, I am jaded due to my job.

I am not young and I have a 401k, IRAs and savings. I am not in a position to start over. I have worked very hard for what I have.

Don't see this as I am unwilling to share, it means if hy or she finds someone new or wants to move on, I don't want to be the one supporting their retirement.

My perspective:

Pre-nup to ensure that what each of us brought into the marriage is protected (assets and respective liabilities).

Starting fresh, so-to-speak, as a married couple.

Then, 50/50 on all assets and liabilities incurred as a loving partnership, once married.

Divorce happens.

No one plans it, expects it or wants it when they get married (OK, maybe some do-I don't).

50% of marriages in this country end that way.

Maybe stats for non-straight people will be different.

That remains to be seen.

As usual, I can agree (to a degree) with both sides...and then there's the four-five more other sides, and I can understand those perspectives as well. ;)

As with Blush, I have been through a divorce as well. We went through a mediated divorce proceeding and it was very clean and smooth. But...and this is the caveat, neither of us came in to or left the marriage with a large some of money (or anywhere even close).

I cringe a bit when someone goes after "their half" of the other persons retirement or other personal assets. But then again, each scenario is unique and these types of personal contracts are typically heavily loaded in the emotion department.

I am just guessing here, but I don't think many of us on this site are multi-millionares. If I were, and I met someone at this stage in my life (40) who had very little financial resources they themselves were bringing into the relationship, I would think it prudent to protect myself, from a fiscal perspective.

People change when money becomes a deciding factor.

Prenup... No, I'll pass.. Next...
 

Dapper, there's nothing wrong with the way you feel about the topic. But, just to clarify my feelings: if money is that important to someone, I doubt that I'll be marrying her. To me marriage is a sacred bond between two people who love each other til death do they part, money or no money. Money does not figure into my equation for marriage in any shape or form. Love is all that I want and need from a woman. Money is not important to me. Love is all it's about for me.

This thread caught my eye because I've been commenting to friends lately that the possibility of full and equal marriage seemed so far away for so long, and the reality that it will actually become available to us any day now came so quickly, that we as a community haven't even settled on the words we would use to refer to our legally wed partners, much less acclimated our minds to the messy reality that the state and the courts would become involved in the possible disintegration of our previously unrecognised relationships. I'm in no danger of marriage at this time, but many of my friends are or will be married.

For those who feel that a pre-nup wouldn't be relevant to them because marriage is forever, please consider what happened between my friends W and G. They're both professionals though G was the bigger earner. G had spent her working life building her assets which were considerable by the time she married W who had been far less concerned with her personal finances. They were married in a state that recognises marriage equality. G felt that her marriage was a sacred and permanent trust. Period.

W left the marriage after seven years. They hired lawyers. G gave W half her life savings in the divorce. Both women are my friends, and no one has suggested that W was a gold digger. The marriage simply failed, and W happened to leave the relationship in a far better financial position than she was in when she entered it. After a bitter period W and G are now friends again, thankfully.

There are way too many variables when it comes to personal relationships. This is a purely theoretical question to a single person without many assets such as myself, but relationships sometimes fail, and losing property/assets that you worked hard to accrue to someone who has left you would certainly be a bitter pill for me.

"I'm Tunechi, Young Tunechi, I wear Trukfit fuck Gucci"
 

I'm going to spend all the little bit of money I have on me, my adventures, my slave, my mini trips, my road trips, my Leather, my causes, my toys, and on HK stuff... Everyone else is on their own!!!


That said, no need fo' a pre nup.....

Money iis not important to me either. I also have nothing. I don't care about material goods. I really don't. I've moved around too much to see them as anything but a pain in the ass. I never wanted a morgage or to stay put.

I married someone who felt about those things exactly the same as I did. Exactly. It was fantastic. We never fought about money, not once.

And then forever fucked off with someone from work because her father died and she lost herself. Everything changed, very *VERY* suddenly. I didn't have a single doubt about her, not one. Not ever. And I don't trust people. But she chose someone who makes £100,000 a year with a house and to have kids with. As in she will be giving birth. She never wanted to have kids and the thought of giving birth wierded her self-concepts out.

Her father dying changed everything. everything everything everything.

When the divorce was in process I got a letter off of her telling me she saw our marriage as a business transaction.

you could have knocked me over with a feather. This was my anti-capitolist, socialist, die hard unionist, loving partner that proposed to me in a tree in Hamstead heath with a glass ring because we couldn't afford a silver one.

A business transaction.

Our wedding was in the snow in amsterdam during a full lunar eclipse on the longest night of the year.

A business transaction. that's all it meant to her now.

Invasion of the bodysnatchers.

We both had debts, not stuff. But my mom is not well and the gal I was dating at the time said "push that through asap before she gets her arsehole hands on your mom's inheritance"

I was given the option to file for 12 years of alimony because of desertion. Leaving me with all the bills etc.

I had left the country. what the hell did I care. But I thought about taking those 12 years of alimony to make her understand just what the fuck she did.

My dad told me no. let her go and make your own money, like you always have. So I signed the opportunity away.

Never ever think that people cannot suddenly change. I just learned that one.

Would I have a prenup next time? I have no idea. I don't have anything. I have 9 bags of stuff and 20 boxes and a student debt. That will change when I get my inheritance but we'll see. I'm not interested in anyone else's money. I've had people offer me the moon, and very wealthy people. It never impressed me and frankly rather put me off.

But who knows. But I do know that people can change on a dime.

Yes I would have a prenup in a heart beat,I would protect my asetts plus whatever my son stands to inherit from me.I would also make shure whatever we accumalated dureing a marrige (if I ever did it again) that she would be taken care of finiancly in case of my passing or agree to an ammount of settlement prior to divorce.Getting married again is not high on my list of things.

I would not get married without some form of pre-nuptial agreement. This would be a pre-requisite for marriage and I'd want this regardless of whether my prospective spouse was (much) wealthier than I am.


For me, it's not about adding up the $$$ and seeing who is bringing more assets into the marriage. Rather, it's about ensuring assets are ring-fenced which preserves a sufficient level of independence so that I have the choice to exit the marriage at any stage, should I wish to do so.


I feel the same way about joint bank accounts i.e. I would be happy to have a joint bank account for general household bills etc. However, the feeling of actually having joint bank accounts where both partners credit their wages too and manage finances on a totally joint basis would fill me with absolute horror.


Some may possibly say that, with my attitude, I should never consider marriage. They would be welcome to their views. However, there's no one size fits all version of a perfect long-term relationship.

I too would be concerned about maintaining my financial independence in any future marriage, especially as those finances will be paying for college (well, part of it anyway) and retirement. Plus, I also have an inheritance coming and want that separate from joint funds. I've made the mistake of getting my finances too enmeshed with someone else's, and it's expensive and ugly to untangle.

For me, anyway, it wouldn't be about difference in wealth but difference in responsibility.

I have seen too many good marriages fall apart seemingly overnight, and former lovers go absolutely crazy over dividing money and things. I was fortunately spared all that, but never again will I consider marriage without some kind of agreement.

My fiance and I both come from families which have been divorced. We have both seen our parents fight for money and goods and we don't want anything like that.
We are planning on having a prenup. Truth is, we aren't Kanye West or Warren Buffet, and we don't want to be. But if something happened in the future which would make us have money, and if something were to happen in which we couldn't fix it, and just had to separate, I want her to have everything she came into the marriage with. Should we ever split up, I would hope that the person with the most income would be generous enough to help the other person.
We aren't wealthy (at. all.) but we think that being happy and safe is something no money can buy. And if the prenup makes us both feel safe, so be it.
:hk19:

I wouldn't get married again, but if a miracle happened and I wanted to give it another go, the prenup would be more water tight than a frog's ass.

Mine changed on a dime, then the witch wanted 9 cents change from me. Sorry for what you went through, my dear, but it may help you to know you'll likely meet a woman far superior to the rat you married.
The way I see it, any woman would be better than the ex wife.

(f)

No. Not "any" woman would be better than my ex. There have been far, far worse.
And when we got together she was a VERY different person. Someone who treated me incredibly well, better than any one ever had, and genuinely loved me like mad. She was kind, protective, intellectual, and funny.
She was my best friend.

But the point is, she changed after going through trauma.

And that can happen to anyone.

So, now that I'm making good coin and I have an inheritance, pre-nup. And living either in seperate places or with stipulations that ensure I keep my independence and private space.

I'm deeply romantic and very caring. But I'm not a mug and I'm no ones nurse maid/cleaner either.

I have nothing against the idea of a prenup. I realize some people wouldn't get married without one and frankly they shouldn't. Personally if you can't trust me with your assets, why in the world would you want to marry me or visa versa? You don't need legal paper to live together.

Because I may trust who the person is as they are, but shit happens to people. And sometimes trauma, or severe injuries, or unknown/unforeseen shit can change people into people you no longer recognize. I've seen it happen. Stuff you'd never guess would ever happen to someone, happens. And it changes someone. And suddenly they are gone. And then the person they are now with convinces them to take half of what's yours. You have no idea.

It's not about trust. It's about not being naive that life doesn't do surprising things that change us. I've watched nervous break downs, brain cancer, deaths, new and sudden addictions, midlife crisis etc these are all things that have deeply changed people I know and put them through divorces.

Granted, Cupcake and if previous experience makes you doubtful you should do whatever you need to do. But if it's just a legal license to fuck, why would it be needed in the first place? If you view marriage as a business arrangement, I don't see the value in entering into one. Have an exclusive relationship and enjoy each other as needed without the entanglements marriage involves. Far simpler and enjoyable if you want the benefits without the risk and responsibilities.

Part of this entire conversation is borne of marriage coming to us only recently.

We have spent so many years in relationships that were not seen as valid; where it was actually not in our best interests to combine money due to how easy it was to slide into and out of being together, that IMO most of us are not sure how to do "ours".

My grandparents, parents, sister....they never gave a thought to combining resources and building a life together. In their world, pre-nups were for the wealthy combining family fortunes, or one person being very wealthy and one not so much. In their world money was combined, houses were jointly bought and plans were made for the future.

We have the type of financial arrangement that we are comfortable with...we combine everything. If this relationship ends, I want it to be messy and hard to get out of! I know that sounds odd, but we both promised forever...and I wouldn't have married her if I thought she would walk away.

The only concession I made to having had a child before coming into the relationship, was to have my 401k divided 50/50 between Amy and Kasey should I pass away before she turned 21. I made my way in life, and my daughter can do the same.

probably yes
 

even though its not romantic, i think in this day and age its a wise thing to have a pre-nup.
We never like to think that when we get married it will end in divorce, but some things are just out of our control.
i got married years ago, wasnt true to who i was (as in gay) and i left the relationship with nothin bc i wanted it that way.
i was the one who hurt him, and for me personally, i went into it with nothing much money wise.
i just wanted a clean break, with no tangles.
but if i was ever to get married again, i think i would lean more towards getting a prenup.
simply bc my own money circumstances have changed.

Short answer: Nope.

Long answer: Hell nope.

I realize this will largely kill my ability to marry and I 100% accept that. The idea that I am already a liability to my future wife? Can't deal with.

I have to agree with imperfect_cupcake, people do change. Sometimes it's for the better, sometimes, through no fault of the person it's for the worse.

Were I to ever marry I would want a prenup. I prefer to see it as a means of the two of us taking care of one another and being responsible financially for the sake of both of our futures. It may have to have a lottery clause too. ;)

I also will not share a banking account. There was a time years ago (30) when a girlfriend and I shared a bank account and I paid for that the hard way. It took me 6 months to pay all of the bounced check fees and bills that got behind because she walked the day after we put the checks in the mail for the monthly bills, and she cleaned out the bank on her way out and everything bounced. Lesson learned.

Also I think most of us go into a committed relationship with the thought in mind that it will be forever, and well, sadly it doesn't always work out that way.