For the Love of Intentions!!
 

Okay...once upon a time I was new here and I started a thread (which shall remain nameless) asking what I believed to be an innocent question. Some saw this thread as an opportunity to start a dialogue while others treated my thread with all the delicacy of a hungry lion attacking a gazelle.

Anyway, as I spend more time on this site, I notice other newbies falling into this same situation. A new person joins the board. A question is asked. It is quite obvious (at least to me) that the intention is to receive knowledge about a subject or get a different perspective. There is nothing in the thread to indicate this new person is trying to be a provocateur.

Almost immediately, one or two of the responses are "Oh, you're in for an education about [insert topic here]." And then the "education" begins with the incredibly detailed picking apart of said question until it looks as though the intention was a purposeful yet thinly-veiled attack on lesbian/butch/femme/trans culture.

Why is that? Is it really just me or does nobody look at intention? Are we all just sitting up in the trees like vultures waiting for the first opportunity for somebody to step one toe out an imaginary line of so-called decorum? Are we that over-sensitive?

Being in the LBGT community already comes with enough doors being slammed in our faces for one reason or another. For some, boards like this are the last port in a storm for understanding and community.

Is there a reason we so easily and sometimes vehemently turn on each other?

I'd like to start an open discussion about this. Maybe unravel a few layers and go deeper into what could possibly be a much larger issue than what happens on this board.

This reminds me of something that my partner said the other day, i.e., that when you join a site like this one, you join with your own level of 'education', which in some cases, will be 'higher' than that of many others. Take U/us for example. He came out in the 70s when He was 17/18, whereas I didn't come out until 1999 when I was 40, so even in O/our case, we have a different level of 'education' when it comes to all things queer. (Example: it was only through watching a documentary on Disco the other night that I discovered - and remember here that I'm not from the States - that Disco was born in the States amongst the gay/black community. I'd never even thought of its origins before, never realized that Disco was initially some kind of political statement/movement.)

So I think that what happens is that in some cases, we - the collective we - respond in not so nice/patient a manner one, because we've simply lost sight of the fact that we're all at different levels in terms of our 'education', or two, because we're simply bored with answering the same questions/discussing the same topics over and over again. I certainly know from personal experience that the more I'm 'around' the Planet, the harder it is to find threads that interest me because in a lot of cases, they deal with issues that have already been discussed to death, either here or elsewhere. However, I am aware of the fact that for a lot of other people, these are new topics and threads from which they can learn something so I basically have two choices, one, to find other ways to amuse/stimulate myself (easy option), or two, to open discussions relating to topics that to me, are still valid/important/interesting (slightly harder option). What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like you've done here).

Hope that makes sense.

Words

I think people challenge ideas not the people posting the ideas. Everybody has a reaction, some will challenge back, some will golden flounce, some will retreat and never be heard from again, some will hold on to it for a long, long time, and some will deflect defensively and take it personally.

I don't think people get attacked, and I certainly don't think it is worthy of painting it in such a manner that it depicts community members like animals. We all end up in the hot seat, including me. Anybody remember the tap thread? I felt many things but never once thought I was being attacked. When people post words like "attacked", "bullied", "clique", "piled" on I tend to tune out due to the self victimization that coils around that pattern. If posts continually insinuate racist, sexist, sizeist, or any isms, I may or may not, but probably will, question intent.

If assuming a posters intent behind an idea is not ok then why is it ok to assume what space a poster is posting from?? Are you on the other side of the computer with them? Do you speak to them in real time and know what emotional space they are posting from? General you!!!

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway).

The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:

• Honest belief that someone is trying to start an arguement.
• The question has been done to death.
• Based on the life experience of the reader, the words written are genuinely offensive.

Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience.

As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel.

I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.

SO sorry, I see now that I wasn't clear.

What I meant was, ''What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like YOU'VE done the work here). In other words, I was commending, not criticizing.

Make sense now?

Words

Girl_On_Fire,

"Doing the work", means a person working through their privileges, isms, etc.

Not in this context it doesn't (see my post above).

Thanks:)

Sorry, Words. I should have kept my nose out of it. :blush:

Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember.

For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me.

One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums.

If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. .

:yeahthat:

Well stated. Thanks.

I love the thread, thanks for starting it. I agree , and have seen it happen many times. You ask alot of good questions, that I myself would be interested in knowing the answers to.

This really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Diva. I had to re-read it a couple of times in order to put my finger on something that at first puzzled me. That being the portion I high lighted in blue.

Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual.

Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together.

I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

*beams* Just got back from my weekend away and am so happy to see how this thread is turning out. I think we've got a great discussion going on here!

:D

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.

For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.

I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

I have so many thoughts around this.

Couple of things: Does dogpiling happen? Yep. Do folks sometimes say stupid shit and then get all defensive about it when people call them out on it? Yep.
Can we *all* do a better job of listening before we react? Yep.

A couple of things I have observed about perception in my years in this particular B/F/T community (going on 14 years now) is that 2 things seem to happen with regularity.

1. Someone says something stupid, gets called out on it, defends it, gets called out by more folks, defends it even more and messier, folks get pissed at one another, someone is a "bully", a member of a "clique", or a "gang", and before you know it, sides are taken and the whole thing is a hot mess.

2. Someone says something stupid, someone gets really pissed about it and calls them out in a shitty way, the person is truly sorry about it and owns that they should have thought about it more, the mad person won't let it go, sides get taken again and the whole thing is a hot mess.

The really frustrating thing that has happened in the past several times is that this has sometimes escalated to "The Space" somehow becoming responsible for what an individual said.

Who has the responsibility in a situation like this:

New member comes to the site, identifies as a Femme, starts a thread entitled "Where are all the rich Butches?!" and proceeds to post about how they are tired of encountering Butches who don't have jobs or live with their Momma.

What if someone feels like they are being really classist and says, "Hey, maybe money isn't the most important thing in the world! I think you are really missing out on some good people because you are being super classist about this and shallow"

Commence argument.

I think some of the frustration I have seen comes when folks seem unwilling to examine their privileges or narrow-minded idealism. This is not to say that folks don't get to have desires. I'm all for that! But what if their desire is couched in denigrating other people's ways of being?
(Thinking about how discussions on loving BBW Femmes often includes sizist anti-thin comments or how discussions about Butches often has commentary around "eeewwwwwwwww" for Butches who date other Butches)


There is another component here that I'd like to mention around intent. Some folks have been around a long, long time and have finely-honed bullshit detectors. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing when folks call bullshit on a brand new person showing up on the site, getting super familiar with lots of folks, claiming to be a millionaire a doctor or a pilot, and having several different weird stories around their life that don't add up.

Why? Because it's happened 100 times.

So are some folks jaded? You bet your ass. :)

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

All this post resonates with me but I highlighted the specific areas that really touched me. When someone comes into a forum and posts something racist, sexist, classist, misogynistic, or in some way blatantly offensive they may not be doing it to stir up shit or for any nefarious reason other than that is how they really feel. They may not be aware that they are being offensive. I don't think that changes the fact that they actually are being offensive. It always feels unfair to me that a person has to read those offensive words, feel all the yucky ways that stuff makes one feel, make a decision not to take the easy road and remain silent but to speak out, point out the problem explaining why it is offensive and then be attacked and labeled as someone who is always making a big deal out of stuff. To quote weatherboi "It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled"."

I think it is important to ask people to be responsible for their words. It's not fair to say things and then when someone asks you to be accountable for what you are saying and to look at the implications of your words that you accuse them of attacking you or pummeling you.

I think it is just as important to call out this stuff in one's online community as it is to call it out in the real world. I would never allow someone to throw racist, sexist, classist etc comments around me unchallenged in my everyday life, why should I allow it in my online community.

Again to quote Weatherboi "Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative."

Asking people to be accountable is like taking a stroll through a minefield. I certainly wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in my heart that it is the right thing to do. I don't know why people feel like being asked to look at the things they are saying is such a terrible thing. Or why they think it is a judgment against them as a person. Maybe that is something we should examine. Everybody says something that is offensive to someone at some point. We all have blind spots. That's what other people can do for you. They can show you where you are failing to see something clearly or where you are failing to take into account the way your words can effect others, the way you can be unclear on the implications of what you are saying. That's not a bad thing. It can facilitate personal growth. I don't know why someone who helps facilitate the opportunity for growth is seen in such a negative light. I am grateful for each and every person who has helped me grow. I'm not saying growth isn't painful but it's the growth that is causing the pain not the person trying to illuminate a blind spot.

Still figuring out how to quote things and not much time.

As a new member of the community I've spent a fair amount of time reading rather than posting. Reading some of the hot topic left me with the feeling that some of the more experienced folks occasionally get tired of being the sign posts for enlightenment.

"Do the work" is a great phrase. Makes sense to ask people to be accountable, naive or not. In a defensive frame of mind (everyone has it from time to time) it might sound like an accusation rather than a request or suggestion.

Privilege is my trigger. I'm an ass about it. I try to be gentle about naivete but I can come on like a 2 x 4 swinging a 4 x 6 when people are being malicious. Don't mind it either. Keeps me warm at night. Also recognize that I have privilege of my own. Takes an awake head to be in both spaces at once. Who wants to be a hypocrite?

In situations where I'm the old hand who's tired of hearing the same tired argument, -ism, whatever, I leave the enlightenment debate to people with more patience. I don't need to be the sign post everyday. Some days I can just be a post. No signs.

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

Yeah that has happened to me a lot! Just recently in the Miley Cyrus thread and talking about appropriation. That is why I come here!

Sometimes people are nice about it and sometimes they are not. I am ok with that.

Miss Tick mentioned that sometimes the naive question can be hurtful. Not intentionally so but hurtful nonetheless. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid places to ask them. I was told quite clearly that my white person musings were hurtful and that it would be best to take those up with other white people or read some Tim Wise. In other words...do the work! So my intentions really did not mean much in this situation.

I don't hold anyone responsible for my learning or my feelings and social interaction. That is on me. While it is admirable to try and be kind and patient always towards all it is not realistic. If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

I am not really comfortable expecting members to post a certain way if they aren't breaking any TOS rules. I can only control what I post. I am comfortable if a community member requests something from me, I have no problem trying to accommodate them to the best of my ability if it is a reasonable request.

I've mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions in the past but I feel like it's a good add-on to this discussion.

I got dog-piled 13 years ago on the Dash site and have never forgotten it! LOL

I was in my early 20s and was fairly new to the Butch/Femme dynamic (or at least naming it that, I had always dated masculine women....except for that one girl, and that's a different thread!). Anyway, I found a thread on the Dash site and there was some heated debate going on with more seasoned folks about whether or not Trans men belonged in Butch/Femme space.

YES, that discussions actually happened. YES, people were pissed.

Anyway, I was trying to wade through the cyber-slaps to see what people were actually saying and got so frustrated with the constant negativity and personal jabs that I made some foolish comment like, "Good God, we're all women here! Can't we just get along?"

I was immediately handed my ass by Toughy, Heart, and a couple of other folks!

Oh, I pouted my ass off and was mad as hell!!! How dare these people try to school me on anything! Who were they after all to talk to me like I was stupid!!

Looking back, they weren't rude to me at all. They were, however, very direct (and one of the group was pretty aggressive) and informed me that No, not ALL folks on the site were women and that I needed to think about my remarks and how it erased folks.

And I sat back and was all, "WTF do you mean we aren't all women???? Do we have vaginas or not??"

And then commence my education on how sex organs do not equal gender!
And then commence my education on how Trans men are part of the continuum of gender that I needed to learn about!
And then commence me being really, really reticent to get involved in any heavy discussions for a good long while. :)

Having your ass handed to you by folks out in the wide open is often not very fun and can even feel humiliating. Thing is, that's just ego talking!
I took that experience and learned from it and consider both Toughy and Heart not only my friends but my elders (in the respect that they were way more knowledgeable about gender and identity than I ever dreamed to be!)

Folks have a choice with how they digest information. They can get really defensive and butthurt and sull up or they can consider the information to see if they think it has any merit. And this isn't saying that everyone who calls you out on something is worthy of listening to, because let's face it, some folks are full of fucking shit and can't examine their own shit much less someone else's.

But if several folks are saying it? It's worth a listen!

There is a line where you can still listen to what folks have to say, respect it as best you can, but not accept it or digest it.
Good example for me is folks who are a certain slant of political party. I might think that folks who wanted Sarah Palin or Donald Trump for President are complete and utter idiots but I'll give them a listen to see why they feel that way. Because not all of them are idiots. Some of them are racists and some of them are sexist assholes and still further, some of them havent done any research at all on what Sarah Palin stands for but think that having a woman anything in political office is a grand thing.

It's always tough to see people defending their right to be racist or sizist. And even harder still when the folks defending their racism try to paint the folks calling them out as "bullies" or a "gang". I think about how much energy it takes to be defensive versus how much energy it takes to just listen. :)

I think it all boils down to how you respond, not what you say. If someone says something that is offensive to you, calling them out on it and pointing out how it could be offensive could actually be very beneficial to the poster. It's when someone reacts as though the information is "already known" that gets under my skin like so much sand in my bathing suit. And this is whether it's directed at me or not. I'm an underdog so I'm a fighter for the underdog.

Then again, I'd make a lousy lawyer because I truly believe people are simply making simple social errors when they post "cringe-worthy" threads or responses to threads. I want to take them aside and gently tell them they have their social skirt tucked into their pantyhose. I can't let anyone walk around with egg on their face. I can only think back to the times before I discovered I had Asperger's and would walk around with my foot permanently crammed into my mouth and had no earthly clue why I was losing friends, jobs, etc. right and left.

If only, I've said for years, if ONLY someone had taken me aside and explained what I was doing wrong. If only someone had seen my intentions instead of my behavior.

I think this life experience has given me a unique experience and a particular sensitivity when I believe anyone else's intentions might be being misunderstood.

The entire reason for this post was to make a suggestion to the general you to, the next time you see a post that makes you want to fire with both barrels, stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment before responding. At least on a public forum, you can do that. If someone says something insulting in front of you, it's much harder to control your reaction.

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

Holy fuckin epic post! I'm on my phone so I can only see like three sentences at a time.

Sorry!!!! I hope anyone's eyeballs bleeding at this point are able to still see something through the haze of the pink fountain my prattling on has caused.

Insomnia. Can't shut up. Probable light me on fire in a bag and I'd talk to you about it....

Oh and scuse the nonsense that's probable in that post. Autocorrect is a bitch.

Are you offering to cauterise the flow with that, sicko?

just because the thread or post is there doesn't mean i have to comment. any thread. any post. my two cents can be silenced. sometimes just letting the ignorance float in cyberspace, ... it will go silent too.

there are those times when it's not for the love of intentions. if i'm not sure, i just go with it. the poster will reveal their intentions. i believe that i should give the benefit of the doubt if possible. but the truth is, ... there are people out to start trouble. play head games. up to no good. and so on.

for those that are innocent. just trying to make friends. be a part of the group. and they are jumped on for not typing their words just so, ... that's just plain ole meanness.

i don't have a catalog of educated words. but i hope that i can use my common sense when communicating, wherever and whenever. i do not want to walk on eggshells. i do not like drama. confusion. if i can't be at ease, i'll not take part. instead of engaging in the drama, so called debate, etc. i'll walk away. but i'm not a bahhck bahhhck chick lol.

one of the good things about communicating with others online is that i can think before i "speak". there's no reason to hurt someones feelings. if the truth hurts, well. but even then, the truth can be spoken kindly. i just don't think there is ever a reason to humiliate. i can ignore or take it to private.

there are times when i should take responsibility for the feelings of others. so i appreciate/thank Girl_On_Fire for the love of intentions.

I'm afraid distance prohibits proper response.

I'm tempted to just post a picture of me flashing my tits instead as a boob form of a v-sign but nipple is not allowed.

Daktari. If I have to go to one more polite event I'm going to open my wrists with an electric razor.

I did meet a nice English girl from Surrey and went drinking with her. She yelled at me from across the bar "Babs ya deaf cunt!!! Come back with crisps!"

I stuck my thumb up signalling I heard her but there was a very shocked and curious look from the other patrons...

Sorry. Back to the subject of polite response.

You think I won't, right?

Well I guess you changed your email and someone else got a surpise about 30 min ago. Good thing there was no face in that.