Top Surgery for Butches: Have you thought about it?
 

I saw the discussion in the other thread and I wanted to join in but I agree it might be better here.

I’ve struggled with this issue for years. I know having top surgery would align my body with my vision of it. It’s always a surprise when I look in the mirror. I tossed around breast reduction but every time I think about it I know my idea of reduction is removal. I see myself as a woman, I identify as female and I use the pronoun she. But I don’t see myself as a woman who has breasts.

Yes I have. I too have thought about breast reduction, but I always go back to preferring chest surgery. I am a stone butch and I think it would be very freeing sexually and physically (in terms of aligning my body) for me to not have breasts. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." I just do not see myself as having breasts or wanting them touched while being intimate.

I am a stone butch, female and woman. I am She and comfortable having a female body. My butch cock is a natural extension of myself and I do not like having breasts. Everything else about being female I am comfortable with.

They also feel quite top heavy to me, like I am out of balance. Also, breasts do not work well with men's shirts, which is what I wear.

The only hesitation I would have is I do not want to pass as male. I do not think I would even with chest surgery. I do get called Sir quite a bit, but it is only for brief moments for the most part. Children often think I am male. I think I look like a butch and would even without breasts. I am not sure. I know a lot of people will look down to a butch's breasts to figure that out, which of course is quite uncomfortable.

Other thing I wonder about is age and also not being at the weight I want to be before surgery. Dapper in the other thread said he didn't think age would be an issue, so that was good to know.

One other thing I don't know if there would be any issues with a surgeon if you are not FTM. Is there anything they would need to know or understand. I figure the surgery would be the same whether it was part of a transition process/someone identifying male or for someone like me but I really am not sure. I haven't ever looked into surgeons because I do not have the money, but I do think about having chest surgery a lot.

I am glad Dapper posted hys info in the Trans zone and thank you Miss Tick for starting this thread.

BullDog mentioned wondering if there would be an issue with a surgeon if one was not FTM. I too have wondered that and also never checked into it because I would never be able to afford to pay for an elective surgery. I have thought about the medical options that might let a doctor sign off on it as it would be free in Montreal. But breast reduction, if I could convince the doctor the girls gave me a back ache or something, is all I could ever come up with.

I keep thinking I've made my peace with them but then something happens to trigger me and I'm back to hating them. I vacillate between hatred and tolerance. Poor things never get any love from me. Or anyone else if I can help it. I am not stone but I really can't stand to have them touched. Well at the last moment, but the timing has to be right on the money. Including them in the process is just a lot of effort, best to forget about them.

I also feel guilty about not being able to reconcile my feelings about my breasts. I think it's easy to confuse it for wanting to be male. I don't want to be male. For me it has nothing to do with not wanting to be feminized either. I am perfectly happy being a woman as long as I can be the kind of woman that I am comfortable with. And that kind of woman just doesn't like her breasts. They spoil the look of my clothes sometimes. I get all dressed up and think I must look pretty awesome and then I look in the mirror and it's like a slap in the face. I'm like what the fuck are they doing there.

I doubt I will ever have top surgery unless I win the lottery or something. But I do think about how much more comfortable I would be in my body if I could.

I have thought about it but then I think about my future life as a parent and I want to breastfeed so there's where I stop thinking about it.

That must be nice. I have tried not to have congruency issues because it doesn’t match my idea of who I am as a butch lesbian feminist who is, always has been and always will be a woman aligned with other women in struggle against patriarchy and misogyny. But I can’t deny that my vision of who I am when I imagine myself does not have female breasts.

I like the rest of my body parts just fine though. But the breasts just don't cut it for me. And they often spoil my fashion statement. Making myself put up with them is about the best I can do. I will never be happy with them.

The feeling is a little similar to the one I have surrounding Miss Tick, the name I chose when I joined the Planet. I didn’t think I wanted to use darkgazer, the name I used on the dash site and I thought it might be good for my woman aligned feminist conscience to have a clearly female nic. It sounded good on paper, but I cringe every time I see it and realize hey, that’s me. I don’t like that I feel that way. I don’t like the implications because I don’t believe what is indicated by those implications is a reality for me, even if it seems to be implied (I wrote it and even I am having trouble following this sentence.)

Yet, if there are no implied implications then there is no logical reason for those feelings. Yet here they are.

Wishing for congruity but not even getting logic.

I am a woman, a she, a female and happy to be so, but I don’t like my breasts and I’m not crazy about my name on the planet. Feelings don’t have to make sense. But for the foreseeable future I will keep them both. Or should I say keep them all since it’s two breasts and one name?

as a child, i didn't want those things at all! i wanted to be shirtless, happy, and playing with boys. i often thought i'd make a better boy than girl. it took me a lot of time to sort it all out. and then i learned that i am my kind of girl/woman. i'm ok with having breasts. just not this size lol. i am for sure having a reduction some time next year. and that will make me happy to have breasts, not just ok.

but i totally understand what you all are saying. i hope that you all can get what you want. truly. from the bottom of my heart and to the top and sides and all the in betweens, i wish you all happiness.

excellent topic. thank you, Miss Tick.

if i may ask, you won't hurt my feelings if it's private, ... why don't you change your nic name?

Bulldog,

Just to pass along some information. Most surgeons continue to follow the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards of care, for this surgery. It does not matter how one defines, they would just need a referral from a therapist OR a primary care physician. In September, 2013 the standards changed and one does not have to be FTM, they only have to have "gender dysphoria" (exactly what people are talking about here...a part of their body is not congruent with their birth sex).

This is a wonderful change.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/...ull%20Book.pdf

(page 59 for the criteria for top surgery).

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To respond to your other musing, yes, the surgery would be the same regardless as to how one identifies, but you can have the surgeon adjust some things. For example, I saw a youtube video of a genderqueer person who requested the surgeon make their areolas (the pigmented skin around the nipple), larger than a surgeon typically would for this surgery. Males have smaller areolas than females, and this person wanted their chest to look more androgynous so they requested, and received larger nipples (but, smaller than they originally had, as they would look too big). Additionally, men's nipples are placed more to the sides of the chest than females, which are more centered. With the double incision surgery (the one most people get), the nipples are removed, resized, and then placed on the chest. You could ask your surgeon to place the nipples in a more "female", centered position on the chest. I suppose it depends on the surgeon, but the two I talked with, were open to the above adjustments from what I have seen on others. Every person's chest is different, so one would need to meet with the surgeon to learn what is possible for their particular chest.

I hope the above is helpful and not too long winded!

Hi..I've had a breast reduction ..you can go down to a size A.. My insurance paid for it cause I had some issues with back and neck pain amd found out I had arthritis is my back..but also the indentation on your shoulders from the bra straps or the oily soon underneath that alot of "gifted" women have are also held into account. Make an appointment and ask about a "reduction" because of your back. Mine was medically approved and I got to choose what size I wanted to be.

Hope it is ok for a femme to respond.

My long-term ex had a quite large bust. She hated it because she was butch and because she had grooves in her shoulders from straps.

She found a plastic surgeon that would do it and because of the size, grooves and back issues; had a reduction down to virtually an A--.

She never wore a bra again and they appeared virtually non-existent.

She was extremely happy with the surgery and it was covered by insurance.

It's awesome for a femme to respond.

I don't like to close myself off from thoughts and ideas. Everyone is always welcome in any thread I start.

You certainly may ask. Unfortunately I don't think I have an answer that makes sense. It has to do with not feeding into my feelings surrounding a feminine sounding title like Miss for myself. I know I chose it but I didn't expect to feel the way I do. I thought it was a cool name. And I still do, but not for me. Why I won't change it is because I am trying to move past these unfortunate feelings.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and I over think everything.

Miss Tick- I respect your choices. They're yours to make. That said, I'm sorry you don't feel free to choose a name that you feel would suit you better. Butch women can and do honour their femaleness and females/women everywhere in many ways. Butch women have been at the forefront in our feminist struggles. The increases we've had in gender equality, though not nearly large enough, would not have come about at all without the tireless efforts of butch women who are dedicated feminists. That could be considered selfless activism since the benefits of those moves towards equality often don't reach butches who face a higher level of discrimination just because of how they present. Moreover, butches continually find themselves in harm's way simply by walking in the world as unabashed masculine women in a culture where hyper-femininity in women is overvalued, and the mere existence of female masculinity is considered a direct threat to men. By walking out in the world as the masculine woman that you are, you give women everywhere more freedom to present in the ways that feel right for them. Would I be overcooking this if I said that I think your existence is a daily service to women everywhere? I do feel that way, even if it seems corny.

I think you have enough trouble. This environment at bfp is supposed to be fun and welcoming. Please consider making yourself more comfortable. No one will judge you for it.

Unless you start calling yourself Dudley Do-Right. Then we'll all laugh.

I am happy femmes are participating in here as well. I would also love to have any trans guys or anyone else here who wants to share their experiences, info or insights with butches considering top surgery.

Thank you for everything you said. i really appreciate it.

You're right it is supposed to be fun and welcoming. I should allow myself to be more comfortable. I'll probably go back to darkgazer. Or maybe I'll come up with something new.

But Dudley Do-Right is off the table.

Well, I'm glad that's settled.

i like Boston. i'm going to start calling you Boston. yeah, and you better answer! LOL

LOL! That's funny cause years ago when I first posted on the dash site, like 1999 I think it was, I had the nic boston butch. I wandered away and when I came back somebody else had it. I live in Canada now, but Montreal Butch just doesn't have the same ring to it. I'm thinking maybe Titty Baby.

Sorry for the derail.

About half of my partners - who were absolutely fine with being female - thought about it. usually reduction and not removal. just going down to an A cup. Very small. I said "well, I had mine lifted when I was 25 and felt *way* better for it. I'd do it again if I could..."

people get tattoos and bolts put through their penises, so I told them to get the reduction to as small as they wanted. I got mine fixed and tightened up 20 years ago. why shouldn't it be ok to do it the way they want, aesthetically?

every.single.day.

If I had a way to afford it, they would be gone in a heartbeat....

My experiences with butches/FTMs & breasts
 

One thing a number of people I know use in order to get the surgery is CareCredit. I have heard mixed reviews on how easy it is to qualify. Below is the link. You can search your surgeon's name to see if they take it. I believe the way it works is each surgeon has their own individualized payment plan. The plan you get with Dr. Fischer is not the same you would get with Dr. Garramone, for example. Do your research.

http://www.carecredit.com/

In case there is misinformation, the cost of top surgery in the U.S. is $4,000-$8,500 in most cases. That cost is surgeon fees, anesthesiologist fees, and surgery center fees. Interestingly, the costs have remained the same for a number of years, which is positive. As an aside, peri/keyhole procedures tend to cost a bit more than the double incision method.

To my knowledge, the only insurance company that will pay for top surgery remains Aetna. Aetna started paying for it many, many years ago and I am surprised that more insurance companies have not followed suit. Hopefully soon. However, not all surgeons take insurance, either.

I am not certain, but I think you still may be able to breast feed if you got the peri-areolar or keyhole method. There are no free nipple grafts involved in those procedures, which is the issue with breast feeing. That surgery is only for people who are A cups or VERY small B cups, however.

I think you are smart to pause and try to not let any gender/body dysphoria you may have result in making a decision that could impact your long term life plans. That can be hard to do when we are uncomfortable in our bodies.

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ETA: To late to add to my post before this one and do not want to post yet another. I wanted to add that Obamacare does not cover the surgery, either.

I'm small breasted, and glad for it. My size doesn't effect how I view myself, but I do think if I were larger breasted it might.

My spouse (also butch) did have issues with her breast size so opted for breast reduction surgery in the 90s. It was covered under insurance because there was a record of back and shoulder pain. The surgeon didn't have an issue going down to an A cup (from a triple D) and that's what she did.

Funny story: Spouse and I were at a conference a couple of weeks before her surgery. I knew 2 of the women there had recently gotten breast reductions and I asked if they would speak to my spouse about their experiences. So the four of us got together, the women explaining their experiences and one said "removed 5 lbs from one and 5-1/2 from the other".

I looked down at my chest thinking "Pounds of breast? 10.5 pounds removed? Crap, I bowl that weight". I've not been able to go bowling since.

I think about it ALL the time. Sadly, finances are such that it will most likely never happen. But yeah, it'd be nice to shed these "Huge...tracts of land" (40DD).

May I chime in as (tomboy) femme?
I can certainly understand the desire for top surgery, even totally unrelated to gender identification.

I am grateful every day that I am very small up top. I never need to wear more than an undershirt and that's to keep warm. If I was larger I would certainly want them off/reduced greatly. It would be uncomfortable to me physically and emotionally.

Tops
 

Hi Folks,

I have just read through every single one of the replies to this thread. Just wanted to say thank you so much to both Miss Tick for posting and everyone who responded. All so very interesting and informative.

I am considering Top Surgery but for lack of anyone around here to talk to about it and no one who has experience of it, my internal dialogue consists of:

'this is what I want, why am I not doing it??'
'I don't belong IN a body that has breasts . . . I belong ON a body that has breasts . . .'
'I don't want to alienate myself from the female community completely, but, I do want a flat chest'

Argh . . . anyways, loving being part of the BFP community - feeling less isolated :-) thank you :-)

:mohawk:

Sidebar question I have pondered with my partner:
If a female identified person has top surgery, can they legally walk around topless? Because that would be *awesome*.

I don't know what our lawbooks say, but cultural norms would suggest, yes.

I think it is the chest, not the identity that determines these things. Our society equals male chest with male, I think. I think the typical observer would assume the person to be male, regardless as their other secondary sex characteristics. We are so programmed to the gender binary when it comes to breasts and genitals.

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If it is based on male versus female, it would come down to the person's legal gender marker. I believe that most States (not all), will allow a gender marker change after top surgery. Standard practice is for the top surgery surgeon to give you a letter saying that you should be deemed male due to having top surgery. One takes that letter to court.

But, lets say the "law" about being topless in your county is based on your sex. Picture the transitioning FTM, full beard, top surgery completed, on the topless beach, but hasn't gone to court yet for the gender marker change. If it is based on sex, then it would be just as illegal for him to be topless as the full-breasted, cisgendered female sitting next to him. Crazy, huh?

Sorry, I meant on a NON topless beach.

Yup, all that. Sorry to have derailed this thread. My partner and I laugh a lot about potential scenarios, like if we back tracked to a few years ago when he had top surgery, facial hair, deepened voice, etc but had not gotten all gender markers changed- legally was he in that same limbo, though fully passing/living as male. But if I ever needed top surgery, cancer or whatever- (it runs in my family) - with no desire to ever change my gender marker or my female identity would I able to hang out topless with him? Just one of those things where I scratch my head at society. Hide the ta-tas!

Been thinking about this thread...

I doubt I can get anyone to sign off on a breast reduction without some planning. Up till now I have never had any complaints of backaches or anything like that, so there would be no record of problems with my breasts. I had a shoulder injury but it’s clearly documented in my medical records what happened and has nothing to do with my breasts. And I’m not sure I really want a reduction. It’s not like my breasts are gigantic and I would be happy if they were a bit smaller. It’s more that I don’t want them on my body. I don’t think there is a size that would make them more palatable. Well, maybe a triple A or double A. I hate wearing a bra. And as I age I don’t feel comfortable not wearing one. The thing is I don’t think reduction is the way I want to go. I need to think on it a bit, but when I read Dapperbutch’s experience and how happy he is with the results I want that too.

I never really thought of myself as being gender dysphoric. I know I’m okay with my assigned sex but gender is more difficult for me. I’m happy being female in my own butch way. I wouldn’t want to be anything other than a woman. So this whole thing is confusing. But it’s nice to know I’m not alone.

And it might just be something that I never do. Or it might become a financial reality in the future. Either way it's nice to have this place to talk about it and read about people's feelings and experiences.

Thanks to all who have posted.

I feel so much like you do Miss Tick. I have never felt I was gender dysphoric either. If I am ever in the position where I can seriously consider having top surgery done, I am going to have to figure out how to approach that. I read part of the Standards of Care from the PDF Dapper linked to, and I really don't relate to what they are talking about in terms of gender dysphoria. However, I have wanted to have chest surgery for a very long time.

Hi folks :)


My doctor calls that body dysphoria or dysmorphic?? considering the issue seems to surround a concern with the body part but not the gender.

I have been very body dysphoric without it pertaining to my gender and it often sounded a lot like what some butches go through. It went on for fucking decades. it's only been since about three years ago that it completely stopped. but it was pretty awful. Sometimes I'd lay on the bed and cry, like I was wearing a too tight wet suit of the wrong skin.

nothing to do with gender for me though. But I empathise at how painful it can be.


Having the surgery did help initially. but not ultimately.

I have to admit that when B. decided to go for top surgery, he presented himself as an FtM (he was already on T) rather than a third gendered/transgendered butch because he was concerned that if he didn't, the surgery wouldn't be approved (and paid for by the NHS). It did feel a little dishonest, and who knows, perhaps it would have been approved anyway, but he thought it best not to risk it and I can certainly understand why.

What took me by surprise a little was the fact that even people who knew B. fairly well assumed that the reason he wanted the surgery was because he wanted to change gender. Some even went so far as to raise an eyebrow as if to say ''Don't try to kid me'' when we told them that wasn't the case. They just wouldn't believe that he was happy being third gendered or that his main reason for wanting the surgery was so that he could finally, after years and years of wearing double binders - yes, they were that large -know the joy of slipping on a cool cotton t-shirt and immediately being 'ready to go' (more than two years down the line and he still comments frequently on just how wonderful that feels). But then, we got - and still get - the same reaction in regard to his being on T and the obvious effects of that so it shouldn't have really come as any surprise - and yet it did. *Shrug.*

Anyway, great thread.

Words