Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?
 

So, I'm curious about something.

Ive had this discussion with a lot of my girlfriends over the years and this even came up on the Dash site a few times way back when.

Do you think that Femmes, Butches, Transguys, and Transwomen build friendships differently?

Namely, I remember way back in the day that Daddy Rhon made a comment about how Butches were "little islands unto themselves" when it came to friendships.

I'll put a poll up to see if we can tease this out a little better but Im curious as to what your perceptions are around how we build friendships. Maybe there truly are no differences in how we do it with relation to gender?

For example, do you feel like Femmes generally connect with their girlfriends more often through text or phone? Do Butches really "hate" the phone in general (talking tongue in cheek here)?

Give me a few minutes for the poll and I'll come back with more thoughts...


POLL ALLOWS FOR MULTIPLE SELECTIONS!

I have noticed throughout the years and the differences between my butch partners and myself. I find it necessary to connect with my girls. It feeds my soul and allows *us* to process and share moments in our lives. It also gives us the space to laugh, cry and scream with one another. I have noticed that my partners (present and past) do not have these same type of relationships.

For example a conversation between Dreamer and I.

Dreamer - So darling did you talk to *** today?
Julie - Yes baby, we talked and I also talked to *** and ***.
Julie - What about you? Have you connected with ***
Dreamer - No, I really need to do that!

Why is that?

For me, and it doesn't have to be daily - but I thrive on those relationships I have developed with my femme sisters. I share my day with them. I also share my day with Dreamer, but our conversations are different. I wish Dreamer would have those same type of relationships with other butches that I have with Femme's. I think it's really healthy to have other people to process with or laugh with, other than your partner.

Just my thoughts!

This looks really interesting, *subscribing*. Is this poll one or multiple answers?

You can pick multiple answers!!

For me friendship is one of those greatly desired things but often fleeting. I have a few friends from high school that I could meet up today and continue conversations we started ages ago. But we don't talk regularly (unless Facebook discussions count). I think our social interactions have changed a lot and phone conversations aren't the only common mechanism (at least not for me).

Part of this is probably from my lack of creating strong bonds with people as a teenager (I never had a friend, really, until I was 17 or thereabouts -- and those friends I still have today but talk via facebook and when I travel there).

Also, I'd point out that transpersons come in a variety of flavours (much like Butch and Femme do) but know that the poll options are limited and we're just too varied a bunch to do the whole poll idea full justice.

I don't like talking on the phone. I call my mother once a week that's enough. I like doing stuff with my friends. That's what friends are for. At least for me. If somebody has a problem or needs to talk then of course I'm there for that. And if I have a problem and I need an ear I will talk to someone I trust. But generally speaking I don't want to just chat. At least not JUST chat. Conversation in the course of doing something else absolutely. But just talk for the sake of talking not my thing. Probably a good thing too, because I'm terrible at just talking. I tend to talk about stuff that bores people. Then their eyes glaze over and I feel guilty. But if I have to listen to conversations about so and so and his mother's aunt's cousin's uncle who cheats on his wife and the wife knows and puts up with it and the like for too long I will slump to the ground and curl in a ball. I'm a terrible conversationalist. I missed out on that gene. Thankfully I like doing stuff so I can be somewhat useful as friend.

Agreed! I was trying to figure out a way to make space for all the various flavors of Butch, Femme, and Trans folks and it was becoming a mess. Hope folks will forgive the clunky poll!!

You bring up a thought for me, Miss Tick!

I've noticed that my conversations with my girlfriends have really evolved over the years with regard to what it is we talk most about.

In my very early 20s, I tended to have friends where we ended up talking about people we knew, events, etc.

Now in my later years, most of the conversations I have with my closest Femme friends end up being about concepts. We process relationship stuff, gender stuff, our histories as women, politics, even spirituality. Don't get me wrong, we do enjoy the occasional foray into food and crafting ;)

As to friendships and gender identity...

I'm reluctant to make any generalizations about the ways in which Butches/Femmes/Transfolks value, build or maintain friendships because I believe our differences (as regards relationship building) fall less along gender lines and more along personality/character trait lines.

But I'm really interested to read other peoples opinions and experiences.

I'm a Femme and I have a lot of friends dotted all over the world and I have a small group of close friends with whom I bare my soul, also dotted all over the world.

The level of closeness of my friendships is not a direct corollary to geographic nearness. A couple of my closest friends live far-far-away and a couple live right here in town.

I tend to keep in touch with my people who are far away via social media, email and occasional video chats; with those people I know that even though we don't see each other very often, our connection is strong. I am indebted to the WWW for giving me the tools to stay close to those people.

When I need to talk about something, or want to be social, I prefer to do it in person with my closest people and I'm fortunate enough to have close people who live locally, so it's easy to do that.

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This feeling of time being fleeting has also changed the way I view my friendships.

I have more delineated circles of relationships now...(than I used to)

My core people (my partner, my siblings, my best friends) this is a pretty small group - 10 or less people.

And then concentric circles that include friends, family members, colleagues that I feel more or less connected to.

I choose to invest my time and love and support and energy in that core circle of people --- I still like a lot of other people and consider them friends but I don't invest as much in our relationships as I might have in the past.

my 0.02
 

Medusa, I think you raise an interesting topic here--I know I've had the same conversation with both butch and femme friends over the years. While I don't have a lot of time right now, I'll share a few quick thoughts:

-all but two of my queer/gay friends are femme or *not* butch--and those two are both hetero-identified trans men

-I'd like more butch friends but find connecting with them (literally, as in actually *finding* them) challenging (are we *that* rare??!)

-this same conversation came up between spritzerj and myself--she put it best I think..when explaining why butches seem to have more femme friends and vice versa she said, "even in our platonic friendships, the pairing of our butch and femme energies underscore the complimentary nature and goodness of our fit"...that really resonated with me

-my concern for butches...do we become we socially isolated in the same way hetero males do when they marry? I watch over and over how husbands lose their friends after they marry women--anyone have this concern?

Good poll Medusa, keep us posted--thank you

Hmm, got me to thinking too Medusa, Don't know if that's a good thing or bad ~chuckles~.
Younger years, All my friends were Femme's and I was the one they came a calling to work out things, fix things and just hang out with... My 3 butch friends were the one's I hung out with to talk shop, sports, and woman....

Thirty somethings were, still my 3 close butch friends, and the hand full of Femme's that counted on me to listen and fix things but not so much hang out anymore because they had partners.

Once I moved from home, I met some friends, but don't keep in touch like I should, kinda hermit myself is how I look at it. Email some of Island friends but I think I changed and moved on or they changed, just ain't figured it out and probably won't put much effort into figuring it out either.

Now... My socializing is work friends and I keep it at work... Yes I am a HERMIT lol No Island, jus a Hermit.

I am sociable when around people but I like quiet, and I like alone time because I have to act happy and giddy at work all day, so when I get home I leave the act outside and debrief and relax....

I am looking forward to the tally! Thank you for making this thread as it has made me realize that I do need to come back to society as I always tend to disappear...

It’s funny when I first responded in this thread I totally wasn’t thinking about my response in terms of gender nor my friends in terms of gender either. Reexamining I see that I have not had many butch friends over the years. Some femmes, but most of my friends have been hetero men or women. My two best friends in the world for years were a straight guy and a straight woman. My longest friendship is with a straight woman who I’ve been friends with since we were 11. Now that we live in different countries the friendship isn’t like it was but it’s solid and has proved its ability to stand the test of time.

I don’t think the types of conversations I engage in have changed over the years. I never was much of a conversationalist. I mean I’ll talk your ear off on a subject I’m interested in but that’s not a conversation. It seems I either talk or I listen. There are very few people in my life who have the same conversational interests that I do. There are some and I cherish my conversations with them. But there are a lot of different pieces that need to fit to make a friendship. Conversational compatibility is only one part. And for me not that big of one. Common interests in activities is an important aspect, a sense of humor, an inherent kindness and compassion, a non judgmental outlook and then there is this intangible sensuality that I look at as platonic attraction.

I'm not sure if how I do friendships has much to do with my gender. I don't know if my gender has anything to do with the choices i make about my friends. But I have a way of looking at the world that is reminiscent of a social scientist, it was probably my calling and had I had a different kind of life it might be my career. This is the kind of thing I am curious about. I am fascinated by all aspects and ways of examining the possible causes and effects of stuff. So I will watch this thread with interest.

it is actually comforting to see that I am not the only femme who hates talking on the phone. I go to great lengths now to avoid it. I even have a message on my shop phone that I will not answer the phone and that they can leave a message and I will text them the answer. At first my customers thought this a bit odd (and it is) but they find other things about me that they like and those weigh in more than the phone oddity.

I have gone thru bouts of few friends, but I see those as my difficult times. I am best when I am part of a collective of familiar people. I have some long term friendships (one has been my best friend since the first day of first grade. We celebrated our 50th year anniversary this year!) and some very deep and rich friendships that have just started a little over a year ago.

I am not a chatterer too! I dont do small talk. I like silence and being able to be with my friends as we focus on something together, from women's issues, to horses, to fashion, to cooking and baking, to spirituality.

Most of my friends are female. Most are straight. Or bi. A few are lesbian. Several are transgendered or transsexual. I can do easy friendships with femmes but I tend to get initially, stupidly stuttery and flirtatious with butch friends.I dont do that with men, trans or otherwise. Something about butches that just make me feel like a teenager again...if someone is patient, and waits out my ackwardness and actualy embarassment over this, I can develop deep friendships because this stage does end.

I have some wonderful friendships with gay males. Dont cal me a fag hag tho. Its not that kind of friendship.

my best of all friends are my animals tho...truthfully. More loyalty and love than i can get from any person...

Awesome thread idea :) subscribed! Was just discussing this topic today with a butch friend. I guess more specifically if butches tended to possibly be more likely to be loners than femmes. And why local b/f community is so small.

I really hope I don't get my head taken off for this. I am absolutely not equating Butch=male or Femme=female.

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

This, this, this!

I too spend a lot of my day on the phone and I don't want to spend a lot of my night on the phone also, even if it's with people I enjoy conversing with. I've also, from work, gotten into the habit of multitasking when I'm on the phone but most folks don't like being on speakerphone (understandably, as I hate it too but I'm not sure if it's a speakerphone issue or a phone issue) and that's the best way to get me for a long conversation. Let me be busy while we talk. Trust me, I'm listening.

Social conditioning does play into it, as do personal traits.

I've got male and/or masculine energied friends that talk their feelings and emotions out and express their feelings verbally as well as physically with their friends but they are far in between. I can count them on one hand.

I have one straight ally that I've had in my life since middle school. She's my best friend and will be forever and a day and we always pick up right where we left off like time just dissolved away. She doesn't always understand me like a femme friend would but she's super supportive and as 'there' for me as a mother and stepmother, student, daughter and employee can be there for someone. We communicate best in very long emails due to time constraints on both sides. We say all we need to say at that moment and the other gets the chance to really soak in what is being said and what is being asked of them, because when we communicate, we're asking something of the other person. Whether you get it remains to be seen.

Some of my femme friends are more telephone oriented than I am but most are perfectly content to text and email and play around here until we can see one another in person. Then I get to squish them and soak up their yumminess.

Most of the butches and guys I am friends with here are more along the lines of 'touch and go' or a one line zinger. BAM! Say it/do it, it's done, let's move on. Not bad. Not good. Just quick connections, which is fine with me. If I needed more from any of them, I think that I could get it but that's how we flow.

Like a couple of people have said, I tend to work things out on my own. I like connections but on my own terms. When I need to bounce something off of someone, I have people that I know I could go to and they would offer my very good advice or give me a solid shoulder to lean on.

I have friends. Some really close ones. But not tons. I find the more friends I have, the less I am able to give each of them, so I'd rather give more of myself to less people. It feels more genuine.

I don't have butch friends or femme friends of gay friends or straight friends. I have friends. Gender is irrelevant. I actually have a diverse group of friends. Most of my life, most of my friends have been guys, and most of those straight. But they are as different from one another as it's possible for people to be. What they tend to have in common is that they are decent, kind, and down-to-earth. And they tend to be smart and moderately to very well educated. I don't seek that out, but that's what sticks. I guess that's who I feel most comfortable with.

I have a very close femme friend. I do not interact any differently with her than I do with other friends. We are also very very different as femmes and date very very different kinds of butches. We talk politics, history, work (especially teaching), food, and just about the daily wonders and challenges of life. I talk those things with all my friends, except the one who is on the autism spectrum. He has flat affect and doesn't experience too much wonder (strangely, he is in an artistic profession). But he is funny as hell and incredibly well read (and remembers it all). And we do talk food (both being food addicts).

I don't interact any differently with female friends than I do with male. If people don't like to talk, we're not likely to be friends. And I have certainly found chatty friends of every gender. The three close straight cis-gendered men friends I have are the most feminist people I know -- and it's not affected. It's in the bones. They truly respect women. Good good people. Sane, funny, loving. Wonderful fathers. I don't have to occlude any part of who I am to be around them. If I did, I wouldn't waste time on the friendship.

The whole "femme friend" thing makes me cringe. I get being understood by people who are like you. But I don't think of femmes and butches in terms of the "girls" and the "guys." The ones I like don't really fit into those categories very neatly. And at my age, I am not exploring my own gender identity. I don't need to see others like myself to feel at home with myself. I don't decompress especially in butch-femme company or even in queer company. I do with close friends, many of whom are queer. But not all. I actually don't find that I have a ton in common with people who strongly identify as butch or femme, people for whom it is a primary identifier.

I don't behave differently around one gender than the other. In fact, I have been criticized for that by butches. There is sometimes the expectation that femmes will flirt with and flatter all butches. I am interested romantically and/or sexually in very few people. I do not treat an entire category of people like potential dates. They are not. A very few people are potential dates. Also, I do not need most butches to see ME as someone they'd like to date. How exhausting would that be?

I have a pretty good butch friend. She has more friends than I will ever have. She has a gift for intimacy, I always tell her. She's also beautiful -- and she works at it. She also loves to shop and CARES about clothes. She and I rarely talk about that stuff because I don't care about it, but that is very much part of who she is. She does not isolate or care about sports or vehicles. She is a hot smart butch, and she doesn't let anyone tell her what that should mean to her.

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Yeah, I don't get this. My close close friend who is femme does not "get" me any better than my straight male friend. They both "get" me, the particular person who is me. I have ID'd as femme since the early eighties. I have explored my gender identity as much as most people in our community, although certainly less than many. But, no, I do not think that other femmes live my life just because they are femme. Very likely they do not, in fact. I may ID as femme. But my relationships do not conform enough to a pattern that I can say that other femmes live my life.

HoneyB had a great rant on this once. I am too lazy to go find it. It may not be here anyway.

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

Julie-

You pretty much nailed the crux of how I feel about some of my friendships with Femmes. I've never sought out Femmes as friends per se, merely had friendships happen organically (as I feel they should for me) but there is definitely something super sacred about that space that is created between two Femmes. (speaking, of course, from my real-world, real-time, actual lived experience)

You and I have had long discussions about desire that feel almost like a "twin" language. I don't have those kinds of discussions with my straight women friends, my male friends, or my Butch friends. Sometimes because e don't get that part of one another and sometimes because it's not safe space.

For me, the space *is* different with Femmes in friendship. Different in wonderful, powerful ways. And I keep coming back to those spaces over and over because something resonates so hard there. I have the ability to hang out on Facebook or in real-time spaces when I want/seek/am amenable to mixed space (mixed space speaking of genders, id's, ways of being). I come back to the Planet over and over (and have enjoyed spaces like the Planet for years) because there IS difference in these spaces and your random "I Love Cooking" websites. You get that, I know. <3

There are no gendered expectations Martina. You create your own expectations based on the box you have created for yourself. If you are uncomfortable using the term "Femme Friends," or Femme Sisters," or "Girlfriends," then those are your choices. I do not begrudge you for not having these relationships and certainly would not shame you for not and most definitely would never cringe at the thought of you having friends with any member of any population, because I respect the relationships of others.

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring. ;)

Me too Medusa. I have never felt so wrapped up in love, as I have in the presence of my "girlfriends." and that is not to say, our partners don't make us feel this way - but it is very different and it is very sacred.

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

And I think that we agree that people are allowed to refer to their friends consensually with whatever language those friendships have agreed upon.

That's the amazing thing about how groups of friends or even friendship couples form. Those friends decide between themselves what feels right. Those friends decide what feels honoring and true. I kinda dig that people will gravitate toward one another based on the things they find in common. I have found that a great many of my girlfriends embrace the idea that Femme space is sacred.
There is certainly no contest happening in friendship spaces with which is more special or sacred, I think those sacred spaces are created in the way that we honor it.

<3

*sigh*

I am speaking in my personal vernacular. (as most people often do when writing a post).

You certainly do not have to adopt my language. Insert "one another" or whatever makes you most comfortable so that this discussion can continue about the subject and not the semantics.

Again, you are making assumptions. This was simply used as an example. It feels like you are picking out key words and dissecting them. This is about relationships and the friendships we have forged and how we navigate them.

Interesting based on this example the OP gave, we heard from butches as well. I wonder why they felt okay to respond? - This question asked based on your reaction to the example.

Because other questions were asked as well. ??

Yet, you chose to dissect that one.

And with that said... Back to the OP question. I think this has the opportunity to be a really healthy dialogue. I am interested in learning more about the relationships we have with others and how others navigate them. I loved reading Dreamer's words to this question. I already knew the reasoning behind much of it, but it was nice to see it here. I think whenever we are given the opportunity to express ourselves in an open forum and share our experiences, we learn about one another.

We are talking about friendships and in the process... Who knows, a few new friendships might evolve.

Love this topic!!!

Indeed, because that one purportedly addressed me AS it excluded me. But, I agree. Back to the topic.

Maybe it's a femme thing because I never had that kind of relationship or felt that way about butches. I haven't had a lot of close butch friends. Actually I don't think I've had any really close butch friends. And some of the butch friends I had were kind of judgmental and the relationships themselves were complicated. The femme one's too. And the gay and lesbian ones as well. Oddly I felt more relaxed around my straight buddies. My best friend for years was a straight guy. I felt very at ease with him. I never felt I was being judged for being too much or too little anything. Of course I might have less expectations for a straight man than I do for another queer. And maybe what we wanted and needed from each other is different and less fraught with ideals.

Yet I do enjoy coming here and talking to people who understand my preference for a particular kind of partner. People familiar with the butch femme dynamic specifically. But within that dynamic exists a multitude of possibilities.

Although sometimes there is a tendency to have border conflicts around the edges of identities mostly I am grateful to have a place like this to come and share stuff.