Orange is the New Black: Season 2 Discussion
 

**SPOILERS CONTAINED WITHIN**

A number of folks on the site have finished Season 2 of OITNB and have expressed an interest in getting a discussion going. I decided to start a thread devoted to freely discussing the second season without worry of spoiling it for people who haven't finished watching.

Orange is the New Black Season 2: Talk amongst yerselves.

I will come back to post some of my particular thoughts in a separate post, but here are some ideas for discussion topics:

-How do you feel about Season 1 versus Season 2? Did you like one better than the other?

-Is there anything you were surprised about? Why?

-What was disappointing to you?

-What did you particularly enjoy?

-Do you have a favorite character? Why? Has your favorite character(s) changed this season?

-Is there a character that you hate? One you love to hate?

-Do you have a favorite episode?

-How do you feel learning about the characters' back stories and why they are in prison?

-How do you feel the show relates to lesbian experience? Gender expression? Race? Class? The prison system?

And anything else you can think of or want to comment on!

Thanks CCB. Too late to think tonight will start discussing tomorrow

I will chime in. I asked in the other thread if people changed their mind on who their favorite character was from season 1 to 2. I really liked crazy eyes in season 1 but thought she was awful in season 2, until the last episode or two. I also disliked Boo much more this season.

I definitely want (more) Alex in season 3!

OMG OMG
 

I never liked boo. Something about her creeped me out. That's been explained. I loved Nikki and poussey for butchesque crushes. I still feel that way but feel even more sighs for poussey now.
Tastey always amused me, but she shines in this series.

That's all for now.

the show was amazing this season because so many of the women's lives were explained. You got a real feel for their internal worlds. Poussey was amazing as was Tastey. I read that they are both Julliard graduates and knew each other in school. I want to hear what brought Crazy Eyes and Boo into prison. They did save some back stories for Season 3

I agree the Boo was creepy and they really have to develop the character next season to not be what appears to be a "typical bull dyke". This is the one "hole" in the story.

I can only say again that when Alex was on there was an electricity. I think that even Piper has evolved and we are seeing that she is changing and noticing that her privilege might be a detriment. I might have to watch Season 2 again. I am sure I missed alot.

Loved this season though to be honest would not have missed Larry and the best friend. They bore me but that may be just me.

Nikki I love - you know that she's that kinda fuck that's gonna make your hair curl :)

Vee - I know she can be sadistic but honestly her nipples would bring me to my knees, she is so fucking sexy. Beautiful woman :)

Me too. But I'm think we will be seeing a lot of our cast in interviews, photo shoots, etc I'm am following them on Instagram and twitter

I really liked Season 2! More so even than Season 1 and I loved the show from the start. I thought the characters were really fleshed out more, even though there were flashbacks in Season 1 as well.

I definitely also came to LOOOOOVE Poussey!!! I thought she was cute and all last season, but I really liked seeing her back story and I also just loved her character this season as well. I like her a lot as a person now. At first I was concerned that the season was going to be all about flashbacks to everyone's story and that it would get really jumbled and I wouldn't like it. And there was a great deal of time devoted to telling a lot of people's stories, but I thought there was a lot of current drama as well.

Last season I would have said my favorite characters were Alex and Crazy Eyes, but that definitely changed. Even though Alex is wicked hot, half the time I want to punch her in the face. I didn't miss her this season as much as others, I think. And Crazy Eyes, OMG it was just awful and hard to watch. I think her crazy was more sympathetic and humorous in the first season and the second season she became kind of a pathetic character. Though done VERY well, don't get me wrong.

I LOVED the ending. I thought it was fucking hilarious. I love that Piper just became more tough and has started to just really not give a fuck on a lot of levels. I love that she screwed Alex over by calling the police on her, and do look forward to Alex being back more next season. Also--Morello giving the woman with cancer (can't remember her name) the van and letting her escape was awesome and even MORE awesome was her seeing Vee walking down the road and just taking her out. I don't know why, but that just made me happy inside LOL!!!!! But I am sick like that.

Agreed that Big Boo is creepy and I have more thoughts on that, but for another time.

crazy eyes I get. I have sympathy for her. she is fiercely loyal, with no boundaries and low self concept. she was horrifically manipulated by someone skilled. I totally sympathise with her. and she is nuts. that's what happens. shes vulnerable to emotional blackmail. I don't like her any less.

Nikki could take me anywhere she wanted. seriously.

but Poussey? I'd make her breckfast in bed.

I agree with both ccb and hb. I also saw Crazy Eyes within the context of a white family who really didn't get it. The scene in the hospital with the nurse doing her hair was touching but heartbreaking...white people who were color neutral. What was great about Poussey, in addition to being cute was her backbone and integrity. Rosa taking Vee out was a hallelujah moment.

One more thing...Piper didn't just cop on Alex for revenge. She wanted her in prison with her so they could be together. That move in the plot as a way to get Alex back was brilliant

I really didnt care for crazy eyes beating the crap out of people this season. When she peed on the floor last season...hilarious. All the chocolate and vanilla swirl or dandelion stuff...loved it! The beating of piper (who is annoying but has yummy moments) and poussey (who may be my favorite if I ignore how hot Alex is) was something I could have done without. I get that there is violence in the world, especially in prison, but I dont have to like seeing it. The episodes where crazy eyes was being framed for attacking red and where crazy eyes cried won me back.

All around, the acting and storyline were great. More Alex make-outs next year please.

Season 2 started out really slow for me and I almost thought it was going to suck about 2 episodes in.

The first season relied heavily on the book and several things in season 1 actually happened in real life (the famous CrazyEyes piss incident). Season 2 felt contrived to me in some ways and there were definitely moments where I knew they had tried to be witty and it just fell flat.

This season I loved Red, Taystee, Pousay, the trio of older women inmates (their names escape me), and even Vee at times.

I was completely irritated by the whole Larry/Best Friend thing and hope that they get rid of both of them in season 3. I mean, Larry comes off as a schmuck and the best friend was just....I mean, walking around with your tits out in front of your best friend's guy? It just wasn't believable to me. And the way they went to the prison for Piper's blessing? Gross.

I was bothered by the scene of CrazyEyes pouring water on Miss Rosa's food. That scene was especially cruel and it didn't feel like it fit with Crazyeye's personality. I guess they were trying to show the change in her because if her loyalty.

Piper irritated the piss out of me this season.

I hated Big Boo this season (which, I think the writer's intend because her behavior isn't so different from Nicky and most of us LOVE her).

I liked Caputo this season and Laverne Cox's character, Sophia, was spectacular. I'll be glad when they give her an actual story.

The scene with Red getting slocked hurt my feelings.

I LOVED to hate Vee. I initially loved her character and thought her to be a worthy villain but she got down-right evil as the season went on. Her ending was pretty unexpected. :)

We actually CHEERED at the end when Rosa ran over Vee i so wanted to slock the bitch that being said the actress who played Vee is awesome she always makes you really believe the character she plays. The whole Crazy Eyes development hurt my heart but I can see it the whole we've got manners were polite scene was AWESOME you gotta LOVE the way they developed the characters and you come away with favorites like Nicky and Miss Rosa all in all we loved it

Interesting analysis of Morello
 

My brain might explode if I don't purge something about
this show. Can I be brief ? No , probably not ;/
As much as I love the show , I felt my intelligence insulted
by unrealistic story lines. It felt hurried with filler that did
Not interest me. I felt even more ripped off when I learned
there is a 5 woman / 2 men writing team , with a 4 million
budget for a one hour show. Seriously? I hope they do better.

Things I would like to see happen are:
Fig comes back as inmate ( highly unlikely in the real world but
I would soo enjoy it anyway)

The father to be needs to quit his job there, find a better one
and those two be together . The end -already

Healey's wife kills him in self defence as he tries to force her
into wifely duties. ( dislike him - want him gone)
The wife and Red fall madly in love, get out together and open
their own restaurant. ( I'd shave Red's legs anyday - her husband
has deserted her -FFs - give her some love)

Rosa and Morello bond was heartwarming.
Morello gets counseling for her fucked up childhood
and her and Nikki live happily evah after.

Boo - her and Nikki know where the heroin is. Nikki
Again does the right thing knowing she will use again
if it's in there. Boo tries to hide it again but the DEA
( who was called in) busts her, takes her off in a van.
The driver of the van is Vee in disguise! Bwah !

Vee may not be dead. She is such a good actress she could
likely pull off coming back in a different role. I'd now like to see
her replace the " invisible wardon" and come back as a kick ass
positive character. ( far fetched maybe but she is that good!)

Piper - be gone. I liked her more season 2 but ... Alex had freedom,
I hope Alex finds out it was her doing , and hooks up with hmm ...
someone not so selfish. Yes, in a way she is trying to protect her from
being offed but she should have let her dissapear .Alex could then
somehow get the king pin off her ass and swoop up Piper when she gets out.
But I don't like Piper - so forget that ending! ;/

Sophia ( Sophia - Sophia <3 ) focus on her for an entire series,
her and son work through their stuff , released early for good behavior
opens a salon next to Red's restaurant! Snort ! Why not?

Yoga's back story. I'd like to see more of it as a recovering alcoholic.
People don't understand how dangerous drunks can get. I know two
women who have both accidentally killed kids while driving drunk.
I know she shot a kid but That wasn't Really her and she's better now.
Let her out but have her come back and do group.
She can write a best seller ,open a yoga shop
around the corner from Sophia and Red. ;)

Poussey? Her eyes damn! I'd fix her breakfast too!
Tastee goes to shoe for a month and realizes she's
In love with Poussey , they both get released early ,
get married and live happily ever aftah

The end ( yeah)
So many characters to love they could do this for years
and I hope they will.
I also hope they will stream some of that money into
Real women's prisons and think if they did they would be
A huge success for a very long time.
If not money , then prompt investigations and reform.
Miss Claudette had a bad accident in real life ( apparently
With Out sufficient medical coverage) and I
hope they do the right thing by her too. :(
It would be great if they figured out a way to bring
her back.
If they can randomly call off a twelve inmate transfer
They can do anything right?
The face licker in Chicago was scarier to me than Vee.
Transfer her in to torment Piper a little?
Oh ....and
Can Pennsitucky go off her new meds? ( soon?!)
I don't want to like her - evah! Thanks ;]
Ok
I think I'm
Done
Now

Woah

Wait !
I forgot my newest crush ? - Gloria!
She falls for crazy eyes and helps her not be crazy!
A nice , slow romance. Gloria invents an herbal remedy
for Suzanne 's issues. That would be a hot couple.
Not one inter racial couple? It is time.
Notice how I'm turning everyone queer? ;]

Love your questions for analysis CCB!

Don't have time to respond right now, still @ work but I will say:

Alex would not necessarily have to f**k me but I sure would like it if she talked to me all night.

Love her voice!

:cheer:

(My honey knows this little piece of info).

Ew
Let me clarify what I was trying to say about Healey.
I should have been more clear with my wording.
I think he is a sexist ass who thinks he's entitled to
his rage. How many therapists do you know who would
allow him to stay seated or continue on after calling
them a c_ _t? End of session for me. I hate that he was
Not dismissed immediately when he did that.
Maybe they were trying to show the crap women have
to deal with? Who would feel comfortable alone with a
strange man who just called you that? Him picking a
woman therapist felt gross to me too.
We saw his anger around his wife , a few sessions about
feelings with Pennsitucky does not fix a rage - aholic.
I hope they don't think we are that dumb.
So yeah , I see a ticking time bomb with no respect for
women and want him to snap and go away.

But... Isn't this following the book that was a real life experience of someone?

There's an interview with the writer on Huffpost.
Many things have been changed.
She is actually back with Larry and has no contact with
Alex. :(
Who read the book? I've read it was eh so I'm
not sure I want to.

Yes, it is following the book
I am half way through it. I heard Piper Kierman say that the creators did use creative license in that the real life Alex and Piper were never incacreated together, the real Piper says that there was no sexual activity that she engaged in. So, to answer your question, the bare bones of the story were there and then, we'll was developed into the show we are drawn to

Bwah ha ha! The real plot thickens!
The real Alex is working on her own book!
She says they had a friends with benefits thing.
She was not Pipers first and Piper had many.
Too bad they couldn't have worked this out privately.
Hmm
The real Alex seems more than a little resentful about being
Portrayed as the bad influence!
I hope the show uses some of her side of the story too :)
Somewhere in the middle is the truth?

I was asking because the charachters.... Well there are shitty, horrible people in real life, like Healy. I have no doubt at all that any system is full of Healys. I know many sexist, mean assholes that don't get fired. In fact, get raises and move through the ranks.
I also know that people aren't all one way or another. For example in school the class I'm in, is 22 people. We've all been shoved together for two years. We all come from very different back grounds, different countries, different belief systems and different biases and bigotries.
One kid I was very friendly with was totally homophobic. In my normal everyday life, I'd never interact with someone like him. But I had to. I got to know S and I actually rather appreciated aspects of him. I also got to talk to him about being a gayer whenever he'd pipe up and slam homos. I did not go to the teacher and complain. Why? Because ratting on him would not have taught him a bloody thing. Just to keep his mouth shut. I had to work semi nude around him. I had to have him massaging me. And I him. So it was important we have some level of respect for each other. Even if that is tenuous. Working it out between us, rather than through an authority figure is a much better way to go.

We are stuck together for two years from 8am to 4:30 pm, eating together and getting semi naked together and touching each other. We all sort of try to work out things between us - and that can be really complicated considering each of us comes from a different back ground with different beliefs about what is respectful behaviour.

I can't even imagine taking that to the level of difference in a prison.
And I know from my working life that people in authority are often biased and bigoted. I can only imagine to work in the prison system (like my best mates mom when I was growing up) you'd have to be very tough, have a thick skin and you'd get worn out and jaded, pretty quick. His mom too no shit whatso ever and wasn't exactly empathetic.

I would not enjoy a tv show without complete and utter assholes in it. I like the characters are multidimensional and have various shades of good and evil in them. Makes them more realistic.

there are many other systems where there are elements of what HB is saying. I know that after many years of working in inpatient psych hospitals, some nurses, social workers, orderlies administrators andpsychiatrists, etc. appear to develop that "thick skin" and (particularly when patients where approved by insurance to stay long stints) develop attitudes to different classes, races and psychiatric diagnoses particularly if they are non-compliant.

even if you are on staff and don't agree with those who have been in the system a long time, you are seen as niave. It is part of the human complexity that sometimes the lack of empathy is puzzling and troubling and the amount of aggression to those who need help is hard to take. Then, one day, you start to say the same things that those who you mocked as being hard ass and not therapeutic are saying and you have to either look at yourself and try to hold onto what you value as a way of treating people or you find yourself, at times, "going over to the other side" as a defense and protection. Very complicated and complex...that is what makes the show interesting. Even the assholes are given moments that the viewer may for a moment hold a different view of that character...until they are a cruel asshole again. Does this make sense?

Yeah, I do like that they make people three dimensional. Not just all good/all bad, Disney villan-good fairy kind of thing.

I am still tripping on the back story of all this.
The man they testified against is thriving in Nigeria.
He is still fighting extradition and thus far winning.
Their case against him seems to not be very good and he is
buddies with the president of Nigeria.

Definately not , someone to mess with :|

He was worth a mere 800 million back in the 90's and
has since become even more powerful ,successful and
established as a " legit" businessman.
Prince Buruji Kashamu.
He is on Facebook, FFs! He likes mcdonalds :] and being free...
I imagine.
If I was on that list of people testifying against him, I would go
Underground. Instead , this woman writes a book and is enjoying
her new celebrity status?
I don't get it.
Catherine Wolter ( the real Alex) just got off parole this past april.
In the article I read , she seemed to imply the parole thing as the reason she has not
spoken up earlier. She wants to get back with one of her prison wives. :)
Horrible mug shot , I'd be mad at Piper too. I couldn't find an official booking one for Piper.
Her sister Ellen , who had a romance with the guy might be the smartest
of all and stay discrete?

Yeah , yeah ( I know )
Back to Alex
They would not let her meet the real Alex ( before)
I'm hoping they will now before season 3.

If I was in prison (!) I would definitely want a prison hubby/butch.

My long-term ex used to work at Sybil Brand in LA and they used to put all the obvious butch dykes in what was commonly called "The Daddy Tank".

*Sigh*

In my fantasy version, I'm the only femme in the daddy tank.

I will never see a white van in the same way again.

Just finished the book. It really only provided the shell for the series. After reading it Ican really appreciate, no, I am in awe of the writing, Jenji Kohn' s conceptualization off the characters and the richness of the women's interactions.Wow, she is a fucking genius. I can't wait to see what she will do after OITNB

i have complicated feelings about season two. most of it was entertaining (esp. taystee and poussey) but eventually during the last few episodes it got contrived and boring (except for miss rosa's storyline at the end). i really loved daya and the guard's relationship and the complexities this season...they were incredibly realistic in their portrayal of the ups and downs. i was really made uncomfortable by the depiction of black women's lives and suffering and by vee's character. vee was the first completely unsympathetic character in the whole series - even pornstache is portrayed as a somewhat sympathetic character - and she is a black woman. it just really went too far for me with the way the group of black women were portrayed this season, as entertainment for an audience that's mostly white. it was realllllly hard to get past that and i'm hoping that more people start speaking up about it. i did really like that this season seemed to take a more big-picture view and address the issues of disenchantment (on behalf of the guards who started out wanting to do something good) and the overall corporate corruption of prisons.

I have been reading the thread and enjoying the discussion, and wanting to post but just haven't had the energy I guess.

aishah: I wanted to address what you wrote about the portrayal of black women in the series, and in particular Vee. It feels important and if nothing else I just want to say I heard you and am thinking about it. Maybe you and/or others would like to engage in further discussion about it?

As a white person I want to try and be respectful and open as possible to whatever racism may be going on in all of that. I will also say up front I did not experience the story line with Vee, Taystee, Crazy Eyes, Cindy, and Poussey in exactly the same way you did. I'm trying to check my white privilege in that.

I was very disturbed by Vee and what she did to the others, especially how she manipulated Crazy Eyes and also Taystee's loyalty to her. I agree that she was the only character in the series that came across as completely villainous. She had no redeeming qualities. I do find Pornstache repulsive and think he is more pathetic than SYMpathetic, but that's just me. But certainly the implications are different with Vee.

For me, I didn't see the depictions of black women as monolithic. I'm trying to think about how the stories about them as a GROUP are harmful. I see them as all having different experiences and motivations. Like, Taystee trying to be loyal to the only mother figure she's ever known, while at the same time fighting against her sense of what she knows deep down is right and her love for her best friend. Crazy Eyes just wants to be loved and accepted. Black Cindy I am not entirely certain of her motivation, actually.

I found Poussey a character that really blossomed over this season. I loved hearing her story and I think she was dimensional and brave and had amazing amounts of integrity and love. Also, as the only openly queer black woman on the show and the most masculine presenting black woman--she seems important.

So, I guess I am struggling with seeing the line between laying open black women's struggles for the consumption of white folks and brutal honesty. What do you think could have been differently to make the stories of the black women seem less racist?

it's not that i find the stories monolithic - they aren't. it's that the first character with no redeeming qualities whatsoever is a black woman, which is kind of odd, and i really am uncomfortable with the fact that it feels like a lot of the storylines around vee and the characters of other black women in the show are told in a way that feels - manipulative to the point of being contrived. like the show is exploiting the very real pain of taystee, poussey, cindy, crazy eyes, and the others (mostly at the hands of vee) for entertainment.

which, i get it's a tv show. it's just that it feels like the portrayals have changed. in the first season the stories told felt more real, less manipulative, less...like "watch what these black women do to each other to hurt each other." for your entertainment.

i'm not black and i'm definitely not saying my way of seeing it is the only way. but if this were a group of native women portrayed this way i would have had an impossible time watching this (as a native woman).

it just feels wrong that the group dynamics of the black characters were exploited in this way. there are other group dynamics - you could argue that pennsatucky had vee's leadership role with the meth addicts and red with most of the white girls - but pennsatucky and red were shown in a way that was more sympathetic and the angst of the characters in their groups was not done in such a manipulative, contrived, here-let's-put-this-on-display sort of way.

there were a lot of things about this season - and this show in general - that i've liked (pretty much everything except for piper and alex, they get on my nerves). and maybe i'm reading this wrong, it just really made it hard to finish out this season and it's made me think twice about whether i want to keep watching.

edited to add - and i'm really particularly frustrated with the way the stories around these characters and the way their relationships to each other were affected by vee. not in general. i am grateful for the fact that this is one of the few/only shows that depicts queer and trans women of color well. i do think that there were some redeeming qualities to the complex portrayal of vee's relationships to both taystee and crazy eyes - the way both of them are looking for affirmation and develop a sense of loyalty, etc. the show also does a good job portraying the latina characters, it feels to me, at least. it's not that ointb is terrible at portraying women of color.

it's just - taken as a whole, the big picture with the vee storyline and how her actions affect all the characters did not come off very well to me. maybe if vee had been less one-dimensional, it would have felt less like black women's pain (at her hands) was being put on display for ratings. it was over the top and unnecessary. and it was painful to watch.

it was really weird tonight and a testament to her as an actress. I saw Lorraine Touisant on The Fosters and she was so sweet and a good mother and then you think of her on OITNB and her acting is so opposite of her role on the Fosters. great actress

She's an AMAZING actress! I watch The Fosters too and really like her in that. But seriously--she was so believable in OITNB, and anyone that cam make us hate her that much definitely gave an outstanding performance!

I totally agree and I was an episode or two behind in the Fosters (which is a great show, btw) and when I saw she was going to be in it, I was curious if she would make me put away my image of her as Vee and she did. We need to see more of her

Well, Well, Well...
 

...part way through I thought the season was going to suck. It ended up not being half bad.

Looking forward to Alex returning and hoping V is dead.


FYI: I have not read any of the posts in this thread

CCB, you did start this thread for season 2 discussion, for that very reason; the ability to discuss without worrying about anyone that did not watch it yet.

Simple enough to have a season 3 OITNB discussion thread...