Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating
 

It's a novella, I apologise. Please have patience. If you want to skip to the point without context, scroll to the bold bit and larger print, you lazy sod :p

I've broken it into as many small paragraphs as possible for easier reading and put the hypothetical in a different colour to separate it out

I think I probably have only "asked the butches" very, very few times in my 20 year career as a femme...

I know that just because you all share an ID will not mean you see things the same way. I'm not that special kind of idiot lol. However, I do want to hear a plethora of views of how YOU deal with a difference in dating values.

I'm going to give you a scenario - please bear with me, I know I'm long winded but I personally think context and background is really, really important in trying to understand a matter rather than going on "rules."

Someone said that when they see someone they like "bang" they know it and they want it and they want to go after it. That's why when they like someone, they want monogamy for the get go.

I'm very much NOT that kind of person. I do feel chemistry with people, of course. But often just because that chemistry is there, does not mean we will be compatible in the long run. There are too many other things to take into consideration than chemistry (really "getting" each other) for instance there is how we fight, how they communicate, what their values are around certain things, how much they drink or smoke pot, ideas around spirituality or religion, and treatment of others.

I have had amazing and incredibly good chemistry with people who *really* got me, sincerely and absolutely, but who were also active addicts, or binge drinkers, or lied about other women, or were shit at keeping promises, or had mood disorders and bad tempers, or didnt share some values with me about certain things that didn't come up till four or five months in. Or although the sex matched initially, after the first smoke, we found we weren't all that compatible sexually, five or six months in.

This is why I am not someone that trusts instant chemistry and a great click. Yes, I need to feel that deep "understanding" to start to explore possibilities. I do think it's a good sign.

But I'm not that "I know what I want when I see it" girl. I don't put everything on that deep click and "understanding" because I've been with people where even with that, it went horribly wrong. I need to trust someone first before I go there. And that, for me, takes time. I don't trust people off the bat. It takes me a long time.

So I don't do things that way. I don't do monogamy from the get go. I want to know more than the click and the chemistry before I make a commitment. To *me* monogamy is a *BIG* commitment and I don't do getting to know someone when it's required I make a big commitment (to me) off the bat.

I can see that perhaps if we've been good friends for a couple years and suddenly we date (I've done this and had my first long term relationship ship this way, it was great. Totally willing to do that again). But NOT if we met through dating site and I've only met you two or three times over a three or four hour date.

It's been explained to me now why some people do that - because they feel they "know" right away. And I can't, because I don't feel that way. I just don't work that way. I don't even get crushes on people unless I sleep with them first. I don't get and never have gotten "a crush from afar".

If you want to skip to the point, without context, read from here

So here is the question - if you met someone that you had interest in - that you admire, respect, desire and have that fire of "know what you want" for - who dosen't do courting (monogamous only seeing each other) right away, but only does dating with no exclusivity or promises until they know you much better, before they even *think* of courting, even if they agree there is a good click, what would you do?

Would you push her to commit? Give her an ultimatum? Try to do things a new way? Walk away? Try to reach a middle ground?

You've been on two or three dates with them, say, and spend time sending each other emails and call each other for long chats a twice a week. You want monogamy, but she doesn't feel she knows you well enough to make that call and probably won't for three or four months, at least. Your metaphorical balls are turning blue and going to drop off because you are discussing sex, quite openly and I'm great detail, it's an important topic to her. You really want to have sex. She hesitates about it because she knows that you take sex very seriously, right off the bat.

She says she doesn't mind if you go on dates and talk to others because she doesn't expect exclusivity at this point in time. She will not be pushed, she's fiery and has excellent boundaries. Her no means absolutely not. But she is kind, generous, sweet, nurturing, honest, and much more vulnerable than she'll let people on to.

She normally also has sex with people without exclusivity at this point because to her and her history, it's normal and practical to get to know each other sexually as well before making commitments, like monogamy. Yes, even if she thinks you are the bees knees and have a fabulous click.

So? Tell me what you would do if you we starting to date this girl.

addendum:

If this isn't you (courting instead of dating) put yourself in the opposite box... You like someone, they seem different than most people, you are interested in meeting someone different, there is a nice click and you want to get to know them. You do dating (non exclusive getting to know) they only do courting (exclusive and romantic off the bat) What do you do? How do you work that out? Would you?

It's really between the two people involved who are dating long distance , using Skype and emailing each other is a form of keeping touch with someone you care about and getting to know the other person. I would rather do online first because you find out things about the other person personality wise plus ( If they have an ex persay they are obsessed over her I would stay clear it's nothing but drama on both their parts) If your single be honest about it from the start if your not single do the same cause I'm like most butches I have morals and I'm not into femmes who are with someone. And as far as knowing about someone as in the ( click ) you can tell that online some but mostly that happens after you meet them in person.

I think you've answered your own question in your post that I read and was not a lazy sod ;)

If we can't agree on how things roll from the beginning I don't see much of a point in continuing.
But, I'm at the age where I'm way past just some chemistry. There has to be a whole lot more than "I like them"
I'm not going to invest my precious time on someone who wants to run the streets and take their time with me. Fuck that!

I'm already not understanding the answers...

Lol

You've met the person a couple of times, three or four hours each time, haven't slept with them, you are just talking. She's holding off sleeping with you because she's trying to be respectful of how you feel about sex till you can come to an agreement.

Let's pretend this hypothetical person is a real person who is nurturing, caring, generous and ME. And doesn't like hurting people. Not a game player. I need much, much more than chemistry, although that has to be there - that deep feeling of being understood. That's why I need to learn about people before I make commitments. I'm 45 and been around too many blocks. I like learning people first, and building trust.

So can we go from there?

Mr sunshine, I also have zero clue what "run the streets and take their time with me" means ... It looks like "if she doesn't subscribe to immediate monogamy, she's a slut" but I'm not sure if that's what you mean...

Fuck! No, I don't mean that at all. This is why I usually don't bother to try to have a serious conversation in forums. It's just to hard for someone else to figure out what your trying to say.
I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Lol!!! Well, that's ok. That's why I asked. What does that saying mean, I ve never heard it before? Clarification is always a really good thing when using our talky holes and typing.

I'm not angry. I think you'd have to do a lot worse than that to offend me....

Pardon if my bluntness made it sound as if I was.

To provide context for my answer, yes, I’m the sort of butch who chooses monogamy for myself as soon as there’s a special femme in my life. This is not done in the mentality of imposing a rule and it isn’t something that feels like any kind of sacrifice to me. On the contrary, it comes with an awareness that someone in my social sphere has achieved a certain level in my affections and this is something to be celebrated. The monogamy choice is like a by-product of this positive realisation.

One thing that I would like to flag straight away is that, from my perspective, sex goes way beyond the physical and I think this is a differentiation that could really impact on the questions you’re asking. For me it’s probably 80% emotional and 20% physical. From what I’ve seen this differs from person to person but I find it translates to a situation where I’m only likely to be intimate with someone with whom I experience a significant depth of emotion and have a belief in at least potential longevity. There have been a couple of instances where I have acted against this approach and frankly, they were far more to do with my own fears at the time than a positive, empowered choice. I am not saying this applies to anyone else, just me. Anyway, now I’m a bit older and I’ve learnt from these experiences, I’m pretty settled that for me, sex equates to an intimacy that I want to indulge in within the confines of a relationship. I guess to follow this thought to its conclusion; this means that being single pretty much equates to being celibate for me.

With that background established, I am now thinking about your question as to how I would deal with the scenario you describe. I think the most important thing to me was that she was open with me. I would want to know that these are her thoughts and feelings on the matter, perhaps some reassurance that it’s a general thing and not me specifically and then honesty that she is seeing other people in a similar way. I would need to know all this early because it would have an effect on how I handled myself. I don’t think it would necessarily pre-empt my interest because I think so much of her in other, more important areas. I would, however, have to hold myself back more and actually have mentally grounding conversations with myself. The other thing is I don’t think I could sleep with her whilst she was sleeping with other people. I could wait, certainly, potentially for many months of getting to know one another. I guess this is the time when you’d find out about substance habits, spiritual beliefs and the value sets you’ve mentioned but once we mutually agreed to cross that intimacy barrier then I’d need her to suspend dating others. If sex was great and it was all going swimmingly then yes, I’d be looking for mutual monogamy at that point. If sex was persistently incompatible then we’d call it a day and she could once again date as she pleased.

Reading this over, I suppose it does rather sound both like an attempt to find a middle ground and an ultimatum. I don’t like the idea of giving someone an ultimatum but then I guess we all have things that are important to us, some we can flex whilst others would feel like a loss if we did. I don’t think I would like the person I would be if I was sitting at home imagining my lover being out and intimate with someone else. It is because of who I am and the peculiarities of my personality, that I would feel that what she and I shared was somehow diminished. My insecurities would flare and I would be such a fretful arse that I wouldn’t even want to be around myself. I wouldn’t want to be that person for me or for her. I totally get it that other people would feel completely different and I whole-heartedly respect that. I guess my ultimate litmus test would be whether or not I felt empowered. I can imagine feeling empowered having my value set and being monogamous. I can also imagine feeling empowered if I were more adventurous, had a more physical approach to sex and we were both out there exploring and enjoying what life had to offer, whether or not it was together. If there isn’t an area of common ground we could find where we both felt empowered then I would say that it wasn’t the right pairing.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Ah ok, that is helpful, actually. Because I don't feel deeper intimacy with someone until I've been talking with them, being with them and having sex for a while. I don't open up that deep till I trust. So to me, if I have dinner and a chat with someone else, it's just dinner and a chat. I don't feel I've exchanged anything intimate. I don't feel I've given over anything intimate. When I *do* start feeling intimate, when I start trusting someone, then I feel ok about talking about monogamy, but to me it would feel like someone im having coffee with tells me "you can't can coffee with other people because of the way I feel about having coffee"
I find it just as baffling. So that does help me to understand that even a single conversation to you is deeply intimate. I take it that you are really deeply intimate with just a very few friends and don't have just happy casual aquainances you talk about things that don't feel intimate with?

Because I'm starting to suspect this is part of the issue. I can have really indepth, open, connective and happy conversation about subjects people feel private about and I just don't. It's very easy for me to do that. My *intimate* conversations are about really deep feelings, and intimacy to me is about when people help me, like drive me to the bank when I'm really sick. I would never, ever let anyone help me with things unless they were my partner or my parent or a very close friend.

For instance I was dating someone and I fell, smacked my head and got knocked out and got a concussion, I called my dad but he didn't pick up. I was at a little clinic and decided to walk to the train, even though they were worried about me walking alone. I did not want to call my date because I had not been seeing her long enough to ask her to help me like that. That is very intimate to me. So I'm assuming that having dinner and a conversation, which is just social lubricant to me, means something equally intimate to them.

That's why I don't go out for ice cream, or do certain activities with people - like weekend holidays or museums or cook dinner for them - unless I feel past the stage of just going out and having meals and drinks in pubs and getting to know them.

I am guessing that for some people, meals and drinks and long talks i pubs and a movie here and there are very intimate. I can understand that.

I guess then there is just finding activities that neither of us find really intimate in order to get to know each other. Bit difficult if someone has already decided they want what they want, but I can at least get a grasp of it now. Thank you masterful butch, that was actually quite helpful.

LoL. I'm just frustrated because it's hard to make a point sometimes.
Plus, that was a long ass post and a lot to sort through.
I like bluntness, you should have started there :)

Personally, I like things to be easier.

But, I guess if I met someone that wanted to take things slower or faster than me and we had everything that clicked then I would just roll with it and see where it went. I guess try not to get ahead of myself.

I would never call a woman a slut unless she wanted me too ;)

I guess it depends on what one is looking for.

For me, they have to be kinky and dominant, within three hours drive, open minded, wanting a primary partner, same sense of humour, have their shit sorted, sane, not an alcoholic or smoking pot daily, more intelligent than most and really good at communication.

"Easy" is lower on my list. I've dated 10 people in the last 3 years. All of them have been problematic in ways like turning out to be a binge drinker, or winds up having a fairly crippling anxiety disorder that they didn't mention, or wants me to support them, or....

So when I meet someone local, my age range, very intelligent, attractive, funny, dominant, understands a lot of stuff without having to explain myself too much, isnt a binge drinker, has her shit sorted, and is really kind and generous - I'd like to think I can take some of her surface values into consideration without dismissing her or them, off hand. If I'm actually open for something long term to happen. Im not 35 anymore and I'm not in London.
There isn't a dirth of sane and sorted single local butches wanting to play me Mona Lisa on the Ukelele and see how it goes. In fact, I don't know of any.

So I have to be flexible *somewhere* if I want to try and do things differently.

I was just wondering if there are others other there who are flexible to a degree IF they know CONTEXT or if they respond to situations by a set of rules they adhere to.


To be to the point.

I'm suspecting that most people run on a set of rules. Or perhaps flexibility within those rules. But usually people don't deviate off a set of rules unless they have context and reason. Which is why I gave an annoyingly long post.

I'm also used to having longer posts as I'm one of those annoying fuckers that partook in the theory threads. I'm blunt, but I'm totally a context whore. Context can change the colour of a picture completely.

Apologies for my details. I'm not good at fluffy threads. I'm pretty damn cerebral.

Or maybe the answer is "I dunno, I dont think about it"

Which is also a valid response.

I feel totally confused by this thread and I'm too impatient to read more carefully so that's all on me.

That said, I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.

I'm monogamous and usually start having sex before I know someone very well. That hasn't worked well for me, so I'm changing my strategy.

Good luck, everyone!

I was wondering why this was addressed to butches-is it because they are more traditionally the "pursuer" in dating/courting?

While I don't feel bound by rigid "rules", it just comes down to: If someone is moving at a far different speed with regards to dating/courting/intimacy than I am, chances are we're not a good pairing anyway and I move on. And yes, the "click" of connection or recognition can happen, maddeningly, even when compatibility isn't there. That's why, for me personally, I don't want to get physically vulnerable until I know that person much better.

Grianne, I actually wanted to hear what butches because they tend to be more conservative (in my expereince only, and this IS NOT a blanket statement, just a general trend I've noticed) around sex - perhaps because of the whole gender thing requiring greater vulnerability during sex? Who knows. It's anecdotal anyway.

And because I just wanted to.

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Please ignore if it's confusing and muddled and too long.

Ding! That's it entirely. Sometimes that isn't about "speed" as some people commit to monogamy easily and casually and they don't mean it to be as serious as *I* see it when the word monogamy gets whipped out.

If I am actually jiving with someone on all others levels, then this problem is something I personally am fine with questioning intent over and coming to a deeper understanding.

But I'm asking others what they think about
"People commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum" and how they approach a bump in it.

This was so beautifully worded. Sometimes cerebral and erudite thinking comes in a succinct format. Verbosity isn't always the best way to go.

Interesting thread, imperfect_cupcake!

You should see my 16 page emails.

Glad you think it's interesting :)

So then what would you do if you ran into that problem that ginger stated?

Thank you for asking. :)
 

I didn't previously answer your question because you had specifically directed it to butches, but since you have asked me specifically...

For me, if the chemistry (physical, mental, and emotional) is strong enough, I don't have a problem committing to exclusivity. In fact, if I feel a strong connection with someone, there is no other option for me but to be exclusive. Exclusivity doesn't mean I am committing to a life-long pairing, but it does mean I am focusing my attention exclusively on that one special person in order to build on that initial chemistry and to see if the attraction grows into a strong bond that will lead to a long term commitment. For me, if both parties are not interested in seriously exploring their attraction to each other, the chemistry just isn't strong enough to continue. In other words, if the difference in the way in which we approach budding relationships is so vastly different, I would take it as a sign to move on. I just don't think there would be any strategies to bridge that kind of a gap.


*When I use the term exclusivity, it means I am exclusive with my romantic attentions. This does not mean I neglect my career, friends, or other interests.

This stuff has been pretty fresh on my mind lately since I am putting my toes back into the dating pool.

The beauty of this whole thing is that we are all different. If I'm interested in someone enough to get to know them, I am flexible in how things play out. If she wants to be courted, I court her, meaning if I am really interested in getting to know someone and she wants me not to date anyone else, I don't.

If she just wants to date, I'm okay with that as well as long as I know where she stands and what she wants from dating. For example, if she NEVER wants to commit and just wants to have fun, depending on where I am in my life, I may just walk away. If she wants to take time to know me before any commitment then who am I to try to push her into monogamy when that is something she doesn't want at that point? Wouldn't that make her not like me very much from the get go?

In all honesty, my ego has a hard time understanding sometimes why someone I'm dating/getting to know would want to see someone else but that is not reality. That's just my own little fantasy. I like attention. What can I say? I know it doesn't work like that.

So back to your questions:

If someone I was interested in didn't want to commit until she knew me better, I'm okay with that. I would just date her. I wouldn't push her or give her an ultimatum. If I was wanting a committed relationship, I'd be honest with her about what I was looking for and that if we did click after several months, I would probably want that with her eventually.

I'm conflicted about the sex stuff though. I don't really like having sex with someone who is having sex with others but yet sex isn't always about monogamy either. Does that even make sense? So it would depend on the person I was getting to know on whether or not this would be a deal breaker for me.

I'm not really one to go around having multiple sex partners either when I'm looking for a special someone. Tried that in my last relationship and it was okay but not something I'd want long term I don't think.

Did I answer any of your questions or just manage to confuse everyone including myself?

Nothing is carved in stone and would like to think that most things are negotiable if I thought she was worth getting to know.

Nope you answered! And that seems like a good answer.

Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people. It means I don't like feeling like I've just signed a locked in contract to someone I don't know wherein my behaviour is controlled by their wants. Why would I promise someone I am just getting to know, ownership over my body? It is to do with ownership and control, for me, not that I'm going to go shag three other people.

Yes, even if I really, really like them. Even if I think they are the best thing I've met in a bajillion years. I will still, no matter how much I think they are better than everybody else, not want exclusivity until I know them much, much better.

I am happy to give that commitment over further in, but it feels like I'm handing a chastity key to my body over to a stranger, just cause we've had sex once. I don't like that feeling. And until I'm comfortable with who they are and what they are about, I don't give ownership of my body over to anyone. Except myself. Perhaps it's because I'm a submissive and I know what it feels like when someone wants to own my body - and part time that is fine - but when I walk out the door, my body belongs to me only. Until that person become my daddy/papi and that doesn't happen just because I have sex once. That happens when I can trust them. And that takes a long time.

But it is nice to hear people have an idea of flexibility.

Thanks sleepy.

I have thoughts and questions, but more questions than thoughts
 

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

Just to jump in, even though The Lady Snow didn't ask me, she asked Imperfect Cupcake,

in my experience, as soon as I sleep with a butch woman, she wants monogamy with me and is very hurt if I don't feel the same way.

But moving forward, I only want to sleep with someone I really care about, and have intentions of putting the energy into seeing if there is relationship potential there.

But what a good question. I guess I could generalize and say butches tend to want monogamy more that femmes but that's just based on the narrow sampling of my own (limited) experience—which I intend to change.

Don't you DARE apologize for wanting to have a theoretical discussion on this site! Many of us thirst for those discussions that were the norm on butch-femme.com and here when this site first started. Where everyone who enjoys those discussions have gone (or maybe where the people who initiates those types of discussion have gone), I don't know.

To answer the question. What you are presenting as a way to approach dating (the person who wants to feel things out and not commit right away), seems very healthy to me. A person who is so fast to commit because you are so perfect for them, yet would be willing to walk away if you aren't ready for that level of commitment, would make me think that their desire ("need") to be in a relationship trumps their desire to be with the right person.

Big red flag right there my dear!

You asked about our own approach. It depends on how far the person and I are apart from what we are looking for. If I know I am looking for a long term relationship, a life partner, and the person I am dating is not looking for that at all, but is only looking for a casual thing, then I probably wouldn't date them. Or, I might and just have a casual thing, while I am still looking to find a partner who wants the long term thing.

However, if I met someone who was open to a long term partner if they found the right person, but was not in a rush I would see what happened if I really like them. (your example). Why wouldn't I?

So, it comes down to how close the person is to what I am looking for and if they are going in the same direction as me.

I hope this isn't a real life scenario. This person is putting you in an unfair position if they are saying they will leave if you don't commit immediately. Personally, with the little time you have spent together, I think it is a red flag. If they knew they wanted a commitment right away from someone, that should be talked about right up front. Then you may have decided to not date.

On the other hand, this jumping into monogamy in the "lesbian" community is such the norm, the person may not even thought to bring it up.

I like this question and I hope people jump in to discuss it.

My gut reaction is this......

Young butches/femmes (up to maybe 30/early 30's) want monogamy right away.

Past early 30's I think that butches desire to settle into a relationship more quickly than femmes the same age. My experience is that it is this age that femmes kind of "grow into their own". They become more confident, more empowered to be who they want to be, and less anxious about being in a relationship.

For some reason, I don't think butches move into this in the same sort of way. I don't know what that is about, but over my 15 years of being on b-f sites, this is something I have noticed. There is a larger population of older butches dating younger femmes than the reverse. I think that this often are the butches who want the quick monogamy factor (I am thinking maybe mid-later 30's butches who dating mid-late 20's femmes).

Admittedly, I haven't thought about this before, so this is a quick gut response.

I am curious to see if our gender identities (butch/femme) and our ages and the ages we date will play a factor in our perceptions and personal experiences.

I think it was be great if people were willing to state their gender identity/age when they post, as it will add fodder to the discussion.

I'll go first. I am a 44 year old butch.

Thanks for the topic, cupcake!

I am 37 years old and a Queer Femme.

I like to take things VERY slowly when dating/getting to know a new person. I'm like a skittish horse and it's very easy to make the wrong move with me if I am approached too quickly. I want a monogamous primary partner, I want to share my life with someone. This is something I WANT in life. (I have not always been in a place to attempt a relationship, but it is something I have always ultimately wanted.) I do well with monogamy, and when I feel I have had enough time to get to know someone and our dynamic and workings together I have no problem committing fully. Until I have had enough time, though, I am a total commitment-phobe and will run to the nearest exist if I feel pressured to make some kind of deep commitment quickly.

However--butches/guys (and I suspect people in general, but that's my dating pool so that's what I'm commenting on) usually want to move way more quickly than I do. I like to take my time to get to know someone and feel it takes a number of months to get a good sense of a person. If I feel someone wants some kind of commitment from me too soon I freak the fuck out. I will usually say something in a nice way that basically means you need to chill the fuck out or I'm gonna cut and run. And if someone can't respect my need to take things slow before a commitment is made I *WILL* cut and run.

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

For me, it's not about feeling shackled in a sexual manner, it's not a feeling I experience in my body--but rather more in my emotional center. I have only in one period of time in my history where I have had more than one sexual partner, and I'm very selective with whom I have sex, and I don't really enjoy sex unless I know someone a bit. However, I feel like somehow most people need to get some perspective that there's something between completely casual sex and we've-had-sex-once-and-we're-married-for-life. Phew! I don't generally have too many issues feeling sexually trapped, but I do have issues feeling emotionally trapped. But the sex and the feels get messy and overlap so the sex part is often involved. I don't like feeling emotionally pinned down into something before I am ready and I just simply can't make it work if a butch does not respect that.

So, I dunno. I feel like I come at this from a similar perspective as you, imperfect_cupcake. I'm not a butch and I also need to take dating/relationships on the slower side of things and often feel like potential partners just don't get it. Sometimes no matter how much chemistry there is, two people may just not be going in the same direction or want the same type of relationship. And there's not much that can be done about that. BUT, if two people are going in the same direction and want the same type of relationship (like say ultimately being in a monogamous relationship) and one of them needs more time to be comfortable committing to that, then that seems workable to me if the other person is willing to be patient. I have definitely been in situations where people CANNOT be patient, though. That also does tell me a lot because it's about my emotional boundaries and if they can't respect them off the bat then we have problems.

I'll go next...47 Year old Butch.

You brought up some interesting points.

Never thought about this much. I don't think that Butches want to jump into monogamy more than femmes as much as I think that cupcake was wanting to ask the questions from her perspective and experience, which is why this was addressed to the Butches. I could be wrong though.

I've always dated younger than I. Never thought about your point above where you talk about older butches dating younger femmes because of wanting quick monogamy. That hasn't held true for me in my earlier years or now. That's not the reason I like younger women. Besides, I've met plenty of "older" (meaning older than the Butch seeking the monogamy) femmes who want to have a quick monogamous relationship. So I think Butches who want monogamy right now can find it all over the age spectrum and do.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else chimes in because I'm not saying this is wrong. I just haven't had that experience before.

I've always wanted monogamy aside from my last relationship. Still do.
Age has a lot to do with it for me at this point in my life. Let's face it. I'm not the spring chicken I once was. I don't want to get into another relationship that won't work for me, her, or both of us. So I'm wiling to take my time dating and not just jumping into the "you are my gf now" monogamy after a few dates. Yes, I have been guilty of this in the past. Euphoria can be a bitch!

All I know is that I don't want to be one of those Butches who gets to a certain age and settles for someone. No one will be happy with that situation. So the scenario of this thread, where she wants to take time getting to know each other is fine by me, maybe even the best way to go about things at this point.

Thoughts
 

45 year old Leather Queer Femme Dom/Daddy

I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types.. I have felt it while dating feminine folks, masculine folks.. People who aren't into the kink dynamic who I have tried to date have a tendency to get all like this is my property kinda like.. That kinda shit makes me run for the hills, it's not natural, it's scary, and it feels unhealthy to me... I have always felt this way from my 20's to now for some weird odd reason people do not know how to DATE, they want you (general) to commit to a ridiculous standard of monogamy that I don't even expect when IN A RELATIONSHIP.. I don't get it. I rarely if ever have this problem in my D/s-M/s dynamics, the boundaries there seem to be clear and no one likes to cross the lines and I find that interesting... Dating in itself for *me* has changed because of the whole you are MINE thing. Dating is when people seek and get to know more than one person for long periods of time, short periods of time.. It doesn't mean commitment, it doesn't mean you are property, it doesn't give anyone the right to expect monogamy or any other kind of commitment that keeps you (general) or them from seeking others. I don't know where dating evolved into forever.. That's just crazy to me and it's not really a butch.guy thing it's an every gender thang. I find it to be telling and it shows that there is A LOT of insecurity going on if this is happening when you are JUST simply just dating...


Add sex to the mix and people go nutso, next thing you know they are claiming shit like *that's my pussy* and not in that kinky, hot sexy, you're all up in some pussy and you are saying that to one another cause you are getting one another wet/hard.. Why sex changes things into some weird it's "Mine" Nemo seagull mentality I will never ever understand, and frankly want no part of!!!


ETA


Dapper in regards to the age question... I don't have an age restriction, until I do and here is what I have found from my own personal experience..

Cougar relationships (btw I hate that terminology because it deems women as some kind of dangeroud predator) are frowned upon by society and that leaks into our queer stuff.. I find that if I have a young stud at my side or even serving me then I am a predatory, innocent robbing flipper. If a peer be they Dom or not does it then they are Daddy, Lord and Savior...

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me..

Oh, Snow--those are good points! And while I am more monogamously inclined sexually, I am not so much as a Domme when it comes to play. And I have found trying to to date outside of kink circles WAY more often creates that proprietary phenomenon where someone thinks that they have some sort of claim on me. Sometimes I think kink is easier because boundaries and expectations are more explicitly stated early on. That is my experience anyhow.

ETA: I have almost exclusively dated older butches/guys--sometimes a large age difference. I've never though about what this means as far as dating styles related to age...

Also--I have been the way I am in regards to my dating style since I started dating.

I'm a 45 year old femme. I live in western Canada, presently. Lower middle class up bringing. Back ground in monogamy, non-monogamy and poly. I generally only date butches (mostly those who are on some scale of genderqueer, including butches who are women *and* another gender)

I was brought up with people experimenting sexually with friends, and sometimes those freindships turned into relationships after a time. That was seen as "normal".

When I stopped dating men and bisexual women and started dating butches my whole world was turned upside down with how "conservative" it was, even in comparison to my "straight" relationships with men. I found lesbian communities and butch-femme dyke/queer communities tended to be far more conservative in terms of monogamy than when I was dating men and bisexuals. I had zero understanding of the rituals.
Everything moved much too fast for me but I tried quite hard to fit in. After all, that's what dykes do, right?

I find the butches (locally, like between here and seattle) who are between say 33 and 40 to be actually pretty relaxed in terms of not rushing into things and being ok with dating casually and having sex in a less ... Ownership... (Not in the fun kinky way)... Kind of way. They seem to get the pace a bit more. I tend not to date people fresh out of relationships because they tend not to have gotten a sense of themselves again yet and still act in that "relationship" kind of way almost right off the bat. Like their gears haven't changed yet.

Once I start dating above the age of 40, I find it splits into two camps - ones who are terrified of commitment cause they got married to a complete asshole for 8 years, and those who seem to need monogamy off the bat from the word go, and are really suspect that if I don't want monogamy for the word go, then it means I don't like them enough and that I'm shagging everything I come in contact with.

Obviously not everyone thinks that way, as masterfulbutch has explained. But the assumption that I'm a dirty game playing skank because I'm cautious and I like sex seems really unfair and frankly, kind of insulting.

Over the past three years, when I have actually really, really liked someone, I don't tend to seek out new people to date but I don't like making a commitment just yet either. So I don't offer monogamy. But I don't *know* if I really really like someone unless I get to know them.

I also *dont* like doing really romantic stuff when I'm getting to know someone. That feels far too emotionally familiar to me. Since I am also perfectly capable of fun and casual sex, I also like to make sure that we click in bed, without making promises (commitment aka monogamy).

I think this is where I may diverge from many. I don't do deeper BDSM edge play in casual getting to know you sex. I know that for many of the people I date that a) they have difficulty with sex and gender and therefore they need greater trust with sex, thus to them it's a bigger deal with greater intimacy attached to it and b) bdsm (and often coming to grips with being genderqueer/butch is also being introduced to them by someone who *finally* understand that hidden bit they had to hide from their last gf/wife who hated it) is brand new and *very* challenging to their ideas that have always secretly clashed with "don't hurt women" ethos, so they never acted on.

So I think that makes certain acts a far "risker" and "intimate" thing off the bat for them then it does for me. But then I'm also an open book and can easily talk about being an ex sexworker, have a past with sex, drugs and rock and roll (lol tongue in cheek), and I don't find that it requires much emotional "risk" to talk about these things, that are, for many, a big risk to them.

I respect their feelings around that, trust me. I usually date and partner with die hard introverts with brains the size of watermelons who over think everything lol but keep things very close to the chest, though they are sociable.

I do find certain types of introverts are actually more gentle and open with allowing me the space I need to emotionally get to the point of being ok with monogamy. Others, the ones I tend to get kind of freak out by with pressure and feel very choked/squeezed by are the ones who want to start all the romance from the first step. Perhaps that's part of the problem as well. They like discovery through romance, and I'm more of a discovery through humour and frontal lobe kind of person. Someone giving me a bouquet of flowers on the first date will freak me out, not endear me.

Maybe I'm just a shitty romantic, but I think I like to save the deeper feelings and really deeply romantic things for when I can trust someone... And that trust comes in layers and pieces. Being ok with someone taking me out for an ice cream and sitting in the park holding hands is a WAY WAY bigger deal to me than getting-to-know you sex. And I feel really uncomfortable about allowing someone in that far (ice cream and hand holding in the park) before I've had exploratory sex with them first.

Most butches - though not all, obviously or I've never of had a relationship in my life and I've had seven long term ones from the age of 14 until now - don't like this progression because it seems for them, sex is a bigger risk because of the dislike of being touched by people in the first place (the ones I date at least), the trouble they have with trusting people before having sex because of gender issues, and the thought that they *want* romance from the get go.

The femmes I have dated and the femmes I have had sex with and the femmes that openly hit on me are far more sexually forward (probably cause they've had to learn to be with being invisible and all) and far more "let's jump in the fart sack now and see what happens later" and seem to be less concerned about commitment and tend to have the attitude of "if we are the best match for each other, we will find that out naturally and it will be obvious as it goes along" they are more "happy if it turns into a relationship, and it's ok if it doesn't"

But then the femmes I have slept with and dated have all be very *very* extroverted so who knows if that's a consideration as well. May or may not be. They also tend to not have much gender issues with being the owner of a cock. As in, they have one in their head, not just strapping on.

They also have been "gentleman femmes" in the sense of being studs on the inside and feminine on the outside and not into butches as they think that would be sexually same-same.

Again, it's just been my observation. I'm quite happy to be wrong on my anecdotal observations and generalist ideas.

I also tend to meet far more "old school" butches and post modern femmes. So that might have something to do with it as well. The trans guys and transmasculines I've met seem to be a bit less monogamy from the get go as well and a bit more post modern about it all but that could be just that I meet those guys through my friends and kinky events than on line.

Why don't I meet butches that way? At those same events? Cause the butches at those events that are Dominants tend to be married to their primary partner with one or two play subs already and I'm not really up for being a third. I'd much rather just meet someone who'd like a primary partner or monogamus partner (I am fine with either. I know that bends some people's brains but thing about it as being kind of the same as being bisexual but in a poly/mono kind of way. I'm happy in either situation, both are fine to me) than to become another where there is no possibility for a primary relationship.

There was someone, Dapper, but as of last night that's been nixed. But this issue will come up again as it has many times in the past. I really wish there was some kind of way around this issue with people because many of them are really worth while folk that I think are really incredible. But if I feel like my independance is being squelched, my sex drive evaporates completely and I don't want someone touching me. I will actually shrink from it. I get turned off, horribly. If someone gives me my freedom and allows me to slowly make a choice then they become sexier and sexier. It shows me a kind of confidence I find horribly attractive and incredibly sexy.

Kind of like the difference between someone telling me they are intimidated about having sex with me (it happens. Too often) and someone saying "hey, I may not know wtf I'm doing the first few times I try something new, but goddamn after some practice, baby, I'm going to be the best shag you ever had"

Mreow.

But then maybe I just like cocky.

And I'm guessing my wanting to have what I see as freedom to slowly make a choice (as they are!!!) is seen as hurtful Game Playing, just like I can't help feeling my sex drive evaporate by feeling controlled by a stranger.

I dunno, there must be some kind of middle ground.

Highlighting thoughts - Thanks all for responding!
 

Hey, guys...thanks so much for responding...especially for adding your ages!

Just as an aside, when I answered Snow's question, I was speaking to what I see the community doing as a whole.

My personal experience is not any femmes wanting to move more quickly than me. Maybe some, but not enough to say it would qualify as significant in a scientific study.

Since others are speaking to their personal experience about themselves, I thought I would throw that in.

And BIG ASS NOD on what Snow was saying about the butch/femme community replicating heterosexual standards of it being more acceptable of butches dating younger femmes rather than the opposite.

I like the addition of the kink community to this discussion.

ETA: I wanted to come back in here and say that maybe I shouldn't have cut apart people's posts. I hope my snips didn't remove the context you were trying to put your thoughts into, resulting in inaccuracy's of your main answer to the question. Please let me know if it did. Anyway, it was a poor choice, I was just trying to keep a running tally. I dunno. Sorry!

I wish I was better at being precise these days. I feel very rusty. Yes. That.

And yes, I also feel there is something between "totally casual sex" and "now we are in a committed relationship sex." I call it "getting to know you sex." But I find some people are quite insulted by that notion :( or see it as some kind of threat or that once their back is turned I'm going to shag two other people, compare and contrast shagging techniques on a score card in six different categories and they will wind up lacking in some way.

Which is kind of bizarre. But I guess people feel what they feel. That's really not the way I approach sex, ever. And I NEVER think of someone else when I'm in bed with someone, therefore it's impossible for me to actually compare two people. And that's a bit of a foreign concept to me anyway. I don't compare people. I don't sit and think about who I was with that was the best kisser ever. That seems kind of ... I dunno... What I did when I was first kissing boys and girls when I was 12.

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise.

I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up.

IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question)

I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with.

The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon.

I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later.

Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front.

Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading.

Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake!

ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back.

I think the only thing you can do is communicate communicate communicate. I am sure you do this. There are some that do not.

If I know what I'm getting in right away, then I can make up my mind if I want to participate or not.

I think you already kind of answered your own question or how it work if it were you and I dating.

You said this up above:

"Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people."

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

ETA if someone doesn't accept you for wanting or not wanting something, are they really worth your time in the long run?

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closer and safer with her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date?"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

I'm curious. I wonder how she would have reacted had you told her you were going on a "romantic date" with someone else? I know you said you don't like the romance up front so whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. We tend to have a totally different reaction when things are happening to us instead of doing them ourselves.

Well, by the four month mark we had done what we both had considered a bit of romance. She had taken me to the science museum and a pic nic, held hands with me in the marina, I let her take the reins with costs (I love it but it's so hard for me to do), I took her to me little secret favourite Ethiopian restaurant and wore her favourite dress for her, and we went to the 217 flavour Italian ice cream parlour and then played goofy games in the park.
She was planning to have me to her house for the first time and to make me steak dinner (her thing) and I wanted her to take me on the boat.

So we had started doing what I consider romantic things, as did she. There are quite a few other things I did for her but those are her private, romantic things and I don't want to blather them.

So when I asked her what her reaction would be the other way, she told me she would have struggled quite hard with it if I had and she said she was not sure herself how she would deal. But she was not "there" where she wanted to not have the option herself, so she would just have dealt with it the best she could have and talked it out with me till she felt ok.

I wish, very much, I could have done that. But I think I was just a bit further too past it to agree. The thought that I could very realistically be replaced because that girl lived in the same town as her and thus far easier to take out for brunch, far easier to take to the zoo and far easier to have her out for drinks every Friday night, I felt unhinged by. I told her that and she agreed. It was possible. And she would feel very uncomfortable if I did the same.

It's just she was willing to talk through it, and I wasn't. I don't know if that is a short coming of mine or good for knowing my limits.